How are we to understand Sociopaths?

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Okay, but that’s semantics about the abuses of other religious in different religions. They cannot guide me. I earnestly seek understanding of the Catholic view on sociopathy. I know there are people out there who use their positons of authority to manipulate people, especially sociopaths in positions of authority, but we’re getting off topic here. I agree with you, but that just reinforces another reason why to not be a Latter day saint… not what the trusted teaching are and how to apply them. The truth is always the truth. There is an applicable truth. I just need to find it.
If there is no difinitive teaching by the Ctholic Church, then what can we collectively learn from her precepts? This is more on-topic.
 
The reason they can’t feel empathy fjor others is because they are dead inside.They never really asked for God’s help and the more they resist gettting help and the more they continue doing evil the deader they become.They aren’t completely dead at the beginning.Its true that they can live in such an enviroment during childhood that they never experience love and therefore don’t know where to look.But there has to come a time when they definitely know they are out of control and need to seek help.But the problem is that the evil they do is injoyable to them.So rather than seek the help they need they just try to hide it.But they do have consciences and do feel bad after they have done the evil.
 
valentino said:
The reason they can’t feel empathy fjor others is because they are dead inside.They never really asked for God’s help and the more they resist gettting help and the more they continue doing evil the deader they become.They aren’t completely dead at the beginning.Its true that they can live in such an enviroment during childhood that they never experience love and therefore don’t know where to look.But there has to come a time when they definitely know they are out of control and need to seek help.But the problem is that the evil they do is injoyable to them.So rather than seek the help they need they just try to hide it.But they do have consciences and do feel bad after they have done the evil.
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Actually, they feel GOOD after they have done the evil.

[It is very difficult for good people to comprehend how some people can feel GOOD after they have done really bad things. But they do: they just sparkle … they light up … after they have successfully “pushed someone’s buttons”. No joke. These are NASTY people.]

If you want some reading, try “Working With Toxic Older Adults” by Davenport.

Or go on line and look for books with the topic of “toxic adults” or “toxic parents” … like that. The libraries have all these books. It’s amazing how many people are attempting to deal with family members who exhibit “sociopathy” or worse …
 
A friend, who does not post or read CAF, sent me this:

I try not to miss “The Daily Show”. Good political commentary, and the
guests are often interesting. Today’s was Jon Ronson, author of “The
Psychopath Test”, which sounds worth reading. Psychopaths are about 1% in
the general population, 25% among the prison population, and (suspicions
confirmed), about 4% of CEOs. You should be able to hear the interview at
thedailyshow.com/guests. There is a 20-question test in the book.
I wonder how the chief warmists would fare.
As a bonus, I see that Lisa P. Jackson, administrator of the United
States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), will be the guest on the 19th.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
A friend, who does not post or read CAF, sent me this:

I try not to miss “The Daily Show”. Good political commentary, and the
guests are often interesting. Today’s was Jon Ronson, author of “The
Psychopath Test”, which sounds worth reading. Psychopaths are about 1% in
the general population, 25% among the prison population, and (suspicions
confirmed), about 4% of CEOs. You should be able to hear the interview at
thedailyshow.com/guests. There is a 20-question test in the book.
I wonder how the chief warmists would fare.
As a bonus, I see that Lisa P. Jackson, administrator of the United
States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), will be the guest on the 19th.
Click to expand...
We have a man here in MN who is now serving time for bilking millions through his businesses. A local TV station interviewed him. When asked about the people who suffered because of his actions, he had no remorse for anything he’d done or the thousands of people who lost their jobs. It was all about him and how he is doing–how he’s learning to “let go of the past” and “move on” to “new opportunities”. :eek: Truly, a textbook case sociopath. So, I can well believe 4% of CEO’s are sociopaths. It doesn’t surprise me in the least.
 
There is some degree of “sociopathy” in each one of us, in that we do not always realize how our actions could be hurting someone. In the case of sociopaths, the degree to which this occurs is great (or so it seems). But this does not necessarily excuse their behaviour. “He who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a** light **beating. (Luke 12:48)”, but he shall receive a beating nevertheless.

The Bible is clear that some people can reject their conscience (1 Tim 1:19), and some people have their conscience seared (1 Tim 4:2). It seems to me that the latter occurs because of the former, because Jesus said, “To him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away” (Mark 4:25).

I do not know whether these people are the way they are through no fault of their own, or whether they have played some role to be in the state that they are in. Nevertheless, it is almost certain that they will realize that others do not find their behaviour acceptable and this should make them think as to why it is so.

The Catechism says that

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.” (CCC 600)

We therefore have to believe that God gives each person sufficient grace to be saved, even the sociopath, after all he desires every one to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). The sociopath has to respond to the grace God gives him and so do we.

I see only two reasons why a person can be a sociopath -
  1. Because he rejected his conscience and therefore the little that he had was taken away from him and therefore he became worse.
  2. Because God wants to make his works visible in his life by curing him, just as he worked in the life of the man who was born blind through no fault of his own (John 9:3).
 
Two additional thoughts:

One of my friends reported his experiences … he said that if you care, then they will find a way to give you a heart attack. They do not care. To survive, you have to care less than the sociopaths do.

Whoever cares the most, loses.

Terrible way to have to live.

I always “felt” or thought that it was a mortal sin to give less than your best. But when dealing with sociopaths, then what choice do you have but to … do “enough” but not “too much”.

But if the sociopaths detect that you are “shirking” or holding back, then they will kill you.
 
What are you to do when a sociopath is too smart to get caught … has amazing guilt trip verbal skills … when the sociopath is a surgeon or a dentist or a judge or a police officer … or a parent … (or a spouse) … (or a fiance or “good friend”) … someone who uses their inherent trust or authority to deliberately inflict pain and suffering on their unsuspecting “subordinates”.

The FOURTH Commandment, right after the three Commandments relating to how we are to treat God Himself, is "Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother … but …

**
 
Can we just accept the fact - which, I know, absolutely everything in me had never even considered about anyone I was close to as a possibility nor ever wanted to face - that some “sell their soul”, as it were - and align themselves with the devil, deciding that self aggrandizement is more important than all else. At all costs, because they lack the ability to care about anyone else. (Once that decision is made - that kind of lack of empathy or sympathy for others only comes from a very bad place - and goes against our natural inclinations, no matter what - God does not create someone who hates Him and his creations from the get go - he creates them with every inclination toward the Good and it is free will which allows them to choose - in their case, terribly wrongly (while they gloat temporarily…)
 
I agree. I’m going to say that between you all, I have the answers that satisfy me on this subject. I’m going with my original thought that people may be pre-disposed to ailments, even mental illness, and that they become sociopaths. Thank you everybody.
Feel free to discuss more as the spirit moves you.
You have all been wonderful and I treasure you, your answers, and your help. May god bless you all.
And Wesley, thank you so much for your response. The Catechism never steers us wrong. God bless you all with peace, joy, love and protection, but especially faith.
 
I_love_rocks said:
Okay, I read everyone’s feedback. another question I am pondering… along the same lines.
Not always, but sometimes, a person is influenced by, or possessed by, demonic forces.
Satan himself is The Sociopath.

I know modern science cannot discern demonic influence or possesion. It is gravely faulted in that it seeks material, objective, and what they would define as - logical / reasonable conclusions… I consider a blend of true Science, Medicine, etc. [which were created by God, and proceed from the Wisdom of God…] combined with the Supernatural Wisdom and the ways of God (far, far, and surpassingly far beyond our full comprehension) to explain the existence of (Holy)-Spirit-filled persons born anew in Jesus / vs. manifestations of evil spirits which possess the faculties of persons and control their thoughts and movements.

Is it possible that some, most, or all sociopaths are in some way manifesting either influence by … or possession by… the evil one and his minions? Because if the evil one is The Sociopath, then it would be a sensible conclusion that those under his sphere of influence and control would resemble him (sociopaths) as our beloved Lord, Jesus (verbally) condemned those who worked for their father the Devil. Whose condemnation in actuality was reserved for the particular judgement in time and eternity.

We see an example of a possessed man being made like a lamb - gentle, sitting at the feet of Christ as He instructred him after releasing him from his demonic possesion… was this man initially like unto a sociopath? Perhaps there is a better example… Your thoughts?

Hickman Josh - I believe that remorse - especially in the case of the Sacrament of Reconciliation - must be from the heart (true), and not just an act of will. Forgiveness may begin as an act of will… but contrition (if it be perfect contrition) must be from the heart.
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I have a daughter with mental illness. My mother also has mental illness. The best advice I ever received from a priest was that I cannot expect someone with mental illness to behave normal.

My daughter has feelings and thoughts out of her control. She is learning coping skills but truly there are things she does that she is not responsible for. We believe that there are demons attached and/or obsessing her. She has not had any “evil” outbursts since a priest gave her the annointing of the sick and talked to her about not allowing demons to influence her and told her that Christ will protect her. What I mean about evil outbursts is that she pushed a bible away, refusing to read it, resisted holy water, used vulgar language, her whole face would sometimes change its countenance.

She is still on medication and intense therapy.

The best advice I can give someone living with a family member with mental illness is
  1. accept it, don’t fight it
  2. pray a novena to St. Dymphna
  3. pray for the intercession of St. Michael the Archangel
God Bless You
 
I too bid adieu from this discussion. As someone very wise, with a PhD in philosophy, and blessedly truly faithful, through all study, readings, discussions and ruminations, once said to me, “To be accused of being closed minded is absurd. When the Truth is found, it is imperative to embrace it - and close your mind on it.” Thank you my Dear Lord, Blessed Mother and countless angels and saints, and you on this website!, for making so much clear; and allowing me to move on, spiritually unscathed, from some pretty ugly stuff. And to now pray for redemption for one at whose hands I experienced the worst life had thrown me thus far. I recently was reminded of Blessed JPII’s visiting of and forgiveness toward the man who tried to kill him. Puts things into perspective. God bless you all! In Jesus, Mary and Joseph…
 
larsenl1 said:
I have a daughter with mental illness. My mother also has mental illness. The best advice I ever received from a priest was that I cannot expect someone with mental illness to behave normal.
I’m not arguing that, and my heart goes out to you. What i’m saying is that Sociopathy should never be categorized with any other mental illness because it’s so tremendously differnt than any other mental illesses. I would agree with your statement about ALL mental illnesses besides Sociopathy. In my opinion, it should have a category all its own.
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I will just give my answer as I usually do, based on my experience, but I want to also state that I looked into this very seriously once - one of my friends was shot in a school shooting back in the 90s.

I feel like this needs a million disclaimers first! Everyone is different. I don’t even like labels because they can be so dehumanizing. And every situation is different.

My experience living with a sociopaths when I was a child (and no he wasn’t a parent!) was that it was caused in part by indulgant parenting, and in part by selfish conciet.

Here is a relatively attractive child who is allowed to take things from friends and has enough charm that they never get upset about it. What does he learn? That he deserves everything, and there are no consequences for him taking it.

Here is a teenager who likes to go out with his friends and do drugs. Sometimes he gets caught, but mommy and daddy bail him out of jail. They twist the situation around to where the cops and judges are the bad guys. Little Angel is never really to blame for anything. What does he learn? That he can get away with anything, and there are no limits. Nothing is ever wrong.

Here is an adult who has a self-serving view of people, because his parents never really spent time with him or told him they loved him. They had a kid, but they didn’t exactly care. As a baby, he was left alone to cry in the playpen for hours when he just wanted to be held. He learned that people were only there for food and waste. He never understood what love or bonding meant (and if you think I’m kidding, read the huge scientific book The Hand That Rocks The Cradle, you’ll be shocked, it has 0 to do with the film). What did he learn? That people and animals are things. Things don’t have feelings, and they don’t care about feelings.

I’m a big believer that things are learned, but temperament also comes into play. You could have someone with a different temperament and all these things could be true - yet they’d turn out entirely different. They’d find ways around the pain. But temperament isn’t good or bad, it’s what makes us unique. No one is doomed to this life, but there can be a point where it’s nearly irreparable damage.

And this is just one situation. It could be Case B, a kid from a great, close, loving family who simply chose violence. But that rarely happens. Science has shown that the first 3 years of life, if they are good and safe and loving, generally produce good people…and vice versa!
 
As I heard a shrink once say about people going postal…

“Sometimes when you try to apply rational thinking to an irrational act, the answer you get back is that there is no answer.”
 
I would lump BPD and NPD with sociopaths, when you’re talking about illness vs evil. It’s hard to draw lines because it is such a spectrum. Anyway, my point in posting is to share that a few months after I moved out of my BPD xh’s house, a friend who has one of those awful Happy Bunny daily calendars gave me the page from July 11/12, 2009. Happy Bunny is in a devil suit, grinning that big grin, and the caption is “Crazy doesn’t even begin to cover it.” I still have it discreetly on the side of my fridge, and would frame and hang it prominently if i didn’t have kids in the house.

I, too, would like to see a Church policy or written guideline of some kind. It’s very hard to see xh involved very publicly in liturgical ministries when he isn’t Catholic and when it is no secret what he has done.
 
I_love_rocks said:
larsenl1;7886521:
I have a daughter with mental illness. My mother also has mental illness. The best advice I ever received from a priest was that I cannot expect someone with mental illness to behave normal.
I’m not arguing that, and my heart goes out to you. What i’m saying is that Sociopathy should never be categorized with any other mental illness because it’s so tremendously differnt than any other mental illesses. I would agree with your statement about ALL mental illnesses besides Sociopathy. In my opinion, it should have a category all its own.
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One cannot expect someone who is a sociopath to behave normal.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a very difficult mental illness to have in a family. And according to the DSM IV, each mental illness diagnosis does indeed have it’s own category.

To the person who dislikes labels, it is not a ‘label’ to describe a medical diagnosis. Reactive Attachment Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Schizophrenia, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, all of these are diagnosis and usually have co-morbid diagnosis that are present. Mental illness is a very real medical condition. There is something organically wrong with the synapses in the brain.
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larsenl1 said:
I love rocks;7895100:
One cannot expect someone who is a sociopath to behave normal.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a very difficult mental illness to have in a family. And according to the DSM IV, each mental illness diagnosis does indeed have it’s own category.

To the person who dislikes labels, it is not a ‘label’ to describe a medical diagnosis. Reactive Attachment Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Schizophrenia, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, all of these are diagnosis and usually have co-morbid diagnosis that are present. Mental illness is a very real medical condition. There is something organically wrong with the synapses in the brain.
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Actually, the largest study to date has not proven ANYTHING wrong with brain synapses OR with serotonin levels. It’s pretty shocking what they are pulling over on us. I’ve actually read the DSM definitions of several of those “disorders”. BPD = a person who has been traumatized and is messed up because of it. Some of them are just descriptions of evil people, period. Classifying a set of attitudes/behaviors and then slapping an “ill” label on it does not make it NOT evil. I have overcome many mental illnesses and I’ve done it through Christ’s power in my life, plus nothing. With OCD I learned a lot about myself and the fact that I cling to things in my life more than Christ. With depression I learned that I really do need to change my surroundings and release guilt feelings. God showed me these things, and behavior therapy was just a helpful method. The biggest thing I learned that help me with everything is that I’m responsible for me and I can’t blame anyone else. Wish other people luck in learning that!
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There is a book “The Talking Cure”- Susan Vaughan in which brain scans show physical changes resulting from psychotherapy.

So, there ARE potential physical brain “issues” … involved … just that they may not be documented at all or well documented.

[And for sure, there is ONE thing a sociopath is not going to go along with … having his or her brain scanned … “Excuse me, but you’re a psychopath, would you mind having your brain scanned for science?”]

[On the other hand, maybe Nate Haskell … but not the REAL Nate Haskell … would have gone along with it … he could talk the tester into donating a kidney!]

And a lot of the DSM “stuff” is based on voting by SOME of the participants … voting is NOT how science is done!
 
Christian4life said:
larsenl1;7901352:
Actually, the largest study to date has not proven ANYTHING wrong with brain synapses OR with serotonin levels. It’s pretty shocking what they are pulling over on us. I’ve actually read the DSM definitions of several of those “disorders”. BPD = a person who has been traumatized and is messed up because of it. Some of them are just descriptions of evil people, period. Classifying a set of attitudes/behaviors and then slapping an “ill” label on it does not make it NOT evil. I have overcome many mental illnesses and I’ve done it through Christ’s power in my life, plus nothing. With OCD I learned a lot about myself and the fact that I cling to things in my life more than Christ. With depression I learned that I really do need to change my surroundings and release guilt feelings. God showed me these things, and behavior therapy was just a helpful method. The biggest thing I learned that help me with everything is that I’m responsible for me and I can’t blame anyone else. Wish other people luck in learning that!
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I’m happy that you found coping skills for your OCD. For my daughter who was horribly abused from birth to four years old, her mental processes in her frontal lobe are actually different from a child who has all of her needs met during early childhood. There is truly a difference in the way her brain works. I can actually see her fight or flight response kick in or the dissociative state take over when she literally is not able to respond to a perceived threat.

I do not think that sociopaths are born, I think that they are made. And it may not be a mother or father who does the damage. Children orphaned in earthquakes, children witnessing a parent be murdered and left with the corpse until someone finds them 2 days later, etc. These things cause permanent damage to executive function in the frontal lobe.
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