How are we to understand Sociopaths?

[TheRealJuliane]

… of possible interest …

amazon.com/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-Psychopaths/dp/1572304510

I bought this about a month ago, devoured it, was nodding my head practically the whole time. A great read for anyone who is interested in psycho-pathology or who has one or more of these individuals in his or her life.

 

[chevalier]

That is SO true! I recall asking the psychopath simple questions - like, after his “courting of me” by attending mass together, which he figured out worked with me, if he would like to get a bite to eat after - which became a huge quandry for him! He would go back and forth and then, once agreed upon, would not be able to choose anything or anyplace. I found this SO odd for a guy who seemed to confident in so many other ways?!

I’m not a sociopath and I have that too from time to time. Not a muscle on my face will shiver when I’m in courtroom and say a high court holding violates every principle of legal interpretation known to man but give me a menu chart and I’m gonna be the last man thinking when everybody’s actually already getting his stuff brought by the waiter. At times I will be totally silenced by the beauty of a woman sitting on the opposite of me, for example, just like when I see wonderful landscape or a stunning work of art. Much of it may be due to some stuff from childhood but it definitely doesn’t take a sociopath to pull off.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Anyone interested in this topic should get a copy of:

“The Psychopath Test” by Jon Ronson.

Published in 2011. Imprint is Riverhead Books by Penguin Group.

Goes into a great amount of detail about The Hare Checklist … " The PCL-R"

Also referred to as The Bob Hare Checklist.

Also as the twenty-point Hare PCL-R Checklist.

By Robert Hare.

The list is on pages 97-98 of Ronson’s book.

Another reference is “The Mask of Sanity” by Hervey Cleckley which is a classic published in 1941.

Another reference is “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout from the Harvard Medical School.

More later.

 

[Hadrianus]

Sometimes a sociopath will make a statement or asks a question that makes no sense … “Don’t you think you should work for world peace” or some global thing like that.

If you say “yes”, then before you say another thing, they have you signed up for the Peace Corps in Africa. If you say “no”, then they publicly denounce you to the world as being utterly uncaring and callous.

No joke.

AND, if you say you don’t understand the question, they don’t explain more fully … they simply repeat the exact same words, much louder and dripping with sarcasm … as if you are stupid and/or deaf.
But a sociopath will try everything to pin you to the wall.*

I was once in a work situation with someone like this. He was only happy when doing some form of harm to others. To get someone fired or damage their reputation made his day. At first I thought he was just unstable, but then I realized he planned these things, and at any one time he always had to have a victim whose life he tried to make as miserable as possible.
Professionals I’ve spoken to are unanimous in their view that sociopaths cannot be cured. To what extent they are morally culpable only God knows, though my own opinion is that they do know right from wrong and are probably more culpable than not. Whatever the case may be, the only solution is to avoid them.

 

[karbear]

I feel terrible for the people here who have had family relationships with sociopaths. Until I experienced it myself, I never would have believed it. I had a professor who was one. I know that he was aware of what the truth was, eventhough he would tell subtle lies…making black into white…all the time. Sometimes it would slip that he knew the truth. Sometimes genuine compassion would slip out as well…maybe only when it was useful. The only thing I can say about it is that I had the intuition that, even though it was deliberate, it was also unconscious. It seemed as though he was available for the devil to work through him. Maybe, not understanding the end cause of his lies, sort of like how christians don’t always understand the bigger picture of the roles they play or know of the good that they have done. He had to be aware of the destruction, but it was more random and habitual than deliberate. There was always a need to put someone down, but it wasn’t really all that personal. The effects, I think, were more deadly than intended.

 

[RCIA4]

It’s a predicament… Sociopaths have no empathy for others… Personally I think we should do what they do in Europe and lock them up in mental health institutions (with armed guards of course like in Europe).

Personally I think because Antisocial Personality Disorder is a major personality disorder and mental illness a sociopath cannot be held responsible*** (I’m not giving Psychological advice!)*** that prison would be inappropriate.

Lock them up regardless of crimes in a secure comfortable setting where they can be treated with compassion and kindness and Christian charity.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I feel terrible for the people here who have had family relationships with sociopaths. Until I experienced it myself, I never would have believed it. I had a professor who was one. I know that he was aware of what the truth was, eventhough he would tell subtle lies…making black into white…all the time. Sometimes it would slip that he knew the truth. Sometimes genuine compassion would slip out as well…maybe only when it was useful. The only thing I can say about it is that I had the intuition that, even though it was deliberate, it was also unconscious. It seemed as though he was available for the devil to work through him. Maybe, not understanding the end cause of his lies, sort of like how christians don’t always understand the bigger picture of the roles they play or know of the good that they have done. He had to be aware of the destruction, but it was more random and habitual than deliberate. There was always a need to put someone down, but it wasn’t really all that personal. The effects, I think, were more deadly than intended.

They are just doing what comes naturally to them. Like breathing.

 

[I_love_rocks]

They are just doing what comes naturally to them. Like breathing.

Yeah that’s the scary part. I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.

 

[sedonaman]

Sometimes a sociopath will make a statement or asks a question that makes no sense … “Don’t you think you should work for world peace” or some global thing like that.

If you say “yes”, then before you say another thing, they have you signed up for the Peace Corps in Africa. If you say “no”, then they publicly denounce you to the world as being utterly uncaring and callous.

…

Sounds like another one of those “Don’t-you-think-you-should-stop-beating-your-wife?” questions.

 

[TrueLight]

I love watching programs about neuroscience and the question of culpability when it comes to behaviors have always intrigued me.

We’re really in the infancy of using brain scans to study structural differences between “normal” people and others like sociopaths.

It’s almost a chicken or the egg question.

Do these physical or chemical differences produce the sociopath. Or do these changes come about because of the sociopath’s behavior?

 

[sedonaman]

We have a man here in MN who is now serving time for bilking millions through his businesses. A local TV station interviewed him. When asked about the people who suffered because of his actions, he had no remorse for anything he’d done or the thousands of people who lost their jobs. It was all about him and how he is doing–how he’s learning to “let go of the past” and “move on” to “new opportunities”. Truly, a textbook case sociopath. So, I can well believe 4% of CEO’s are sociopaths. It doesn’t surprise me in the least.

I don’t know if it was already mentioned, but what percent of politicians are sociopaths?

 

[chevalier]

Do these physical or chemical differences produce the sociopath. Or do these changes come about because of the sociopath’s behavior?

With the disclaimer that I’m not a professional, probably both, and without contradiction, question only being if the first change or the first behaviour occurs first.

As for culpability, that’s an interesting subject for me as well, since I’m an academic scholar of criminal trial law. This also has a more personal angle: if sociopaths truly have acquired the condition as a result of something they didn’t choose (or even chose at some point but can’t choose to get out of without aid, it generally being believed that the extent of aid they can receive is limited), then we can’t load them with guilt for all the suffering we have personally experienced due to their condition. Certainly we should apply collective responsibility, since they’re individual persons, not a hive mind.

At least NPD can originate often from either very turbulent childhoods or being spoiled beyond measure by parents, none of which is really the child’s fault (children’s culpability being reduced in general anyway, in proportion to justified expectations of them). Other people with psychopathic personalities have been victims of horrible crimes. It isn’t as clear as choosing to be a jerk and getting it burnt into one’s brain as a result of the habit.

In the end, it may be that someone whom we treated like a criminal and like someone who had practically abdicated his humanity, was in reality a badly hurt child that never got a chance to grow into a normal person (which is comparable to turning insane as a result of torture).

And we definitely should avoid scapegoating them at any rate.

(This, however, is not justify anybody who actually chose to become a jerk. Or to say that we shouldn’t protect ourselves from abuse. Or that we can give in to urges that we are capable of resisting.)

 

[sedonaman]

With the disclaimer that I’m not a professional, probably both, and without contradiction, question only being if the first change or the first behaviour occurs first.

As for culpability, that’s an interesting subject for me as well, since I’m an academic scholar of criminal trial law. This also has a more personal angle: if sociopaths truly have acquired the condition as a result of something they didn’t choose (or even chose at some point but can’t choose to get out of without aid, it generally being believed that the extent of aid they can receive is limited), then we can’t load them with guilt for all the suffering we have personally experienced due to their condition. Certainly we should apply collective responsibility, since they’re individual persons, not a hive mind.

At least NPD can originate often from either very turbulent childhoods or being spoiled beyond measure by parents, none of which is really the child’s fault (children’s culpability being reduced in general anyway, in proportion to justified expectations of them). Other people with psychopathic personalities have been victims of horrible crimes. It isn’t as clear as choosing to be a jerk and getting it burnt into one’s brain as a result of the habit.

In the end, it may be that someone whom we treated like a criminal and like someone who had practically abdicated his humanity, was in reality a badly hurt child that never got a chance to grow into a normal person (which is comparable to turning insane as a result of torture).

And we definitely should avoid scapegoating them at any rate.

(This, however, is not justify anybody who actually chose to become a jerk. Or to say that we shouldn’t protect ourselves from abuse. Or that we can give in to urges that we are capable of resisting.)

Sounds like the nature vs nurture argument.

 

[Vladd]

I think it important that we realize that nature makes mistakes, and God allows this to happen. In the US, approximately 3% of babies are born with a defect. This isn’t necessarily God’s will. If anything, God wants us to assist those persons to overcome their handicaps.

As for the “incapable of remorse” idea, yes, it is a hard concept. However, just as we accept than Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc have the opportunity to accept Christ (in full knowledge) after their death perhaps it is reasonable to think that persons afflicted with sociopathy will also have the ability and opportunity to understand and choose Christ.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. I guess I just don’t understand the Catholic view… any help would be greatly appreciated.

Most people that don’t exept Christ do not do so knowing he is real. In truth it’s they don’t exept the church and think the bible is lies and that Christ is a made up story, not because they just reject him. Although I have met some who do that and believe but those are usually theistic satsnist !

 

[I_love_rocks]

At least NPD can originate often from either very turbulent childhoods or being spoiled beyond measure by parents, none of which is really the child’s fault (children’s culpability being reduced in general anyway, in proportion to justified expectations of them). Other people with psychopathic personalities have been victims of horrible crimes. It isn’t as clear as choosing to be a jerk and getting it burnt into one’s brain as a result of the habit.

In the end, it may be that someone whom we treated like a criminal and like someone who had practically abdicated his humanity, was in reality a badly hurt child that never got a chance to grow into a normal person (which is comparable to turning insane as a result of torture).

I’ve also heard that it has been posited that perhaps Sociopathy comes from an unexplained surge of Seratonin to the baby in the womb during gestation - possibly as a result of something the mother did or was exposed to… A viable theory, but who on Earth would ever want to experiement and find out?? Not us!
I do not believe God makes them that way. I don’t know what happens to change a person into a Sociopath, but I believe something does happen. Abuse, Seratonin levels in the forming brain, mental frailty, pampering? Who knows. All I know is that it’s a little scary to me, to think of how many sociopaths we probably meet during our lifetimes and are never aware of it.
Everyone on here with first hand experience seems to have come in contact with the Sociopath who is not a serial killer - obviously. (whew!) I guess when I think of Sociopaths, I think of sociopathic serial killers, or satan, pretty much. The information you have all contributed to my question has been very, very eye opening to me.

 

[chevalier]

Sounds like the nature vs nurture argument.

Possible but we just don’t know to what extent people we refer to as sociopaths are actually responsible for their action in the sense that they had the use (full or significant or any) of their reason and full use of their will in either choosing their specific actions or choosing to enter their condition (e.g. brain damage leaves you no choice and conditioning inflicted by traumas from childhood can sometimes come close). Culpability depends on (the degree of) knowledge and willingness. Blaming people who are not culpable (at all or to such a large extent) is wrong. This is why I suggest protecting oneself but being sparing in accusations, attacks etc. (and avoiding scapegoating).

 

[EvelynEVF]

Plus if a sociopath perceives him/herself as your target (even if this is not your intention), you will have made a serious. and probably skilled, enemy.

 

[sedonaman]

Possible but we just don’t know to what extent people we refer to as sociopaths are actually responsible for their action in the sense that they had the use (full or significant or any) of their reason and full use of their will in either choosing their specific actions or choosing to enter their condition (e.g. brain damage leaves you no choice and conditioning inflicted by traumas from childhood can sometimes come close). Culpability depends on (the degree of) knowledge and willingness. Blaming people who are not culpable (at all or to such a large extent) is wrong. This is why I suggest protecting oneself but being sparing in accusations, attacks etc. (and avoiding scapegoating).

Talent comes in all forms; not all produce good; some produce evil. I believe that there are those to whom others exist simply as an opportunity to do evil.

I don’t think anyone has offered an opinion here about the percentage of politicians who are sociopaths.

 

[Della]

Talent comes in all forms; not all produce good; some produce evil. I believe that there are those to whom others exist simply as an opportunity to do evil.

I don’t think anyone has offered an opinion here about the percentage of politicians who are sociopaths.

It would be very unfair to try to estimate how many politicians, let alone other professionals, are sociopaths. I imagine they occupy every career, including the priesthood, religious life, and ministries. Certainly high power positions that require brains and resourcefulness may attract more sociopaths than other professions, but how anyone would go about proving any one profession is more filled with them than others is another question, as I see it.

 

[sedonaman]

It would be very unfair to try to estimate how many politicians, let alone other professionals, are sociopaths. …

Why? Wouldn’t you want sociopaths barred from political office?