How atheists can go to heaven?

[teachccd]

God wills for all to be saved. We cannot prod the mind of God here or anywhere. Only He knows how an atheist can get to heaven. We are bound by His commands, He is not. There is no one here who has the answer to your question. Everything above is what is given to us but we will never have the infinite love and mercy of our Lord. We can never know the answer to this question. Period.

 

[Jon_S_1]

God wills for all to be saved. We cannot prod the mind of God here or anywhere. Only He knows how an atheist can get to heaven. We are bound by His commands, He is not. There is no one here who has the answer to your question. Everything above is what is given to us but we will never have the infinite love and mercy of our Lord. We can never know the answer to this question. Period.

I hope you would agree though that it is critical to share the love of Christ with the world and present the gospel and teach people how to obey God , as opposed to sitting back wishing everyone goes to heaven.

 

[thewanderer]

The problem is that meeting the requirement of invincible is practically impossible in today’s world. Invincible means that you have never heard about it.which pretty much disqualifies the vast majority of the population.

I’m curious, i’ve heard people make this claim before but have yet to be shown where the Church says that invincible ignorance means never having heard that something exists. That definition just doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Any person who can’t stand being around God’s people here on earth for sure wouldn’t be comfortable in heaven! They would be begging God to get them out of there! ( My humble opinion.)

Eh, anything’s possible. Still I don’t even want to go into that since there are plenty of places on CAF for Catholics and atheists to debate things like that

I’m far more curious about CrossBro’s original post and respnonse.

Bingo, hence the entire point of this thread.

Usually I don’t get into semantics, but I think the question at hand (setting aside the concept of invincible ignorance) is more about semantics than religion.

Let’s break it down:

1. 
   *]Assume that christianity as practiced by the Catholic Church is true.
   *] Assume that a christian is someone who believes in the divinity of Jesus.
   *]Assume that an atheist is one who is not convinced of the existance/divinity of any god (including Jesus).
   *]Using steps 2 and 3 we can infer that a person can not simultaneously be both an atheist and a christian.
   *]Let’s begin with an example of an adult atheist.
   *]This atheist decides that he was wrong and that Jesus was divine. He worships him and completely follows the practices of the Catholic Church.
   *]Using steps 2 through 4 we can say this man is no longer an atheist and is now a christian.
   *]The man later dies.
   *]While the Catholic Church doesn’t say that anybody definitely goes to Heaven, using steps 1 and 6 we will infer that he does go to Heaven.
   
   Now taking this back to the initial question, in this scenario did an atheist go to Heaven. We can surely say that a former atheist went to Heaven, but in my opinion it would be inaccurate to say an atheist went to heaven.
   
   Take it another way. What if we asked, “How can 6 be a prime number?” If the answer is “Add one to it” that could be done but then it would cease being 6.

 

[marymary1975]

I’m curious, i’ve heard people make this claim before but have yet to be shown where the Church says that invincible ignorance means never having heard that something exists. That definition just doesn’t make any sense to me.

I am not completely sure but I am almost positive that pope John Paul.was the one who defined the term, it may have been another pope so someone else can correct me if I am wrong but it was either JP II or pope Benedict. I know for a fact that one.pope did. I also have questioned several priests about it and ask then to explain it to me and in a nutshell, al of them have agreed in that basically the only people who qualify under the definition given by the pope are remote cultures that live with zero contact with civilization that have never heard not even the word catholic. To me personally sounds a little too harsh and that is why I have always questioned priests about this but again, seems like the definition is very very strict.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I am not completely sure but I am almost positive that pope John Paul.was the one who defined the term, it may have been another pope so someone else can correct me if I am wrong but it was either JP II or pope Benedict. I know for a fact that one.pope did. I also have questioned several priests about it and ask then to explain it to me and in a nutshell, al of them have agreed in that basically the only people who qualify under the definition given by the pope are remote cultures that live with zero contact with civilization that have never heard not even the word catholic. To me personally sounds a little too harsh and that is why I have always questioned priests about this but again, seems like the definition is very very strict.

Yes, a modern day example would be North Koreans.

The idea first developed after the discovery of the New World where so many people had been living “invincibly ignorant” of the gospel.

 

[Abu]

Pius IX, the Pope of Vatican I which declared the Dogma of Papal Infallibility, in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863), is of one mind with Clement I and Vatican II: “There are, of course,** those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion**. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.”

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.).

 

[Jon_S_1]

Abu, I’m not exactly sure what you wish to point out with your quote, but I believe the preceding paragraph in Singulari Quadam is important to read to obtain proper context.

***Not without sorrow have we learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition after death of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Bretheren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and “judgments of God” which are “a great deep” [Psalms 36:6] and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as Our Apostolic duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive from the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. **May you demonstrate with that skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.

For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains “we shall see God as He is” [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.*

 

[triumphguy]

I wouldn’t worry so much about atheists going to heaven, rather I would worry first whether my actions as a Catholic turn non-believers away from the Church.

Secondly I would seek out what I could do to actively invite people into the church.

I have some control over those two issues.

I have none over who gets to heaven.

 

[CrossBro]

I wouldn’t worry so much about atheists going to heaven, rather I would worry first whether my actions as a Catholic turn non-believers away from the Church.

Secondly I would seek out what I could do to actively invite people into the church.

I have some control over those two issues.

I have none over who gets to heaven.

What actions do you feel turn people away from the Church ?

What do you do to actively invite people into the Church ?

 

[Abu]

Jon S #28
Abu, I’m not exactly sure what you wish to point out with your quote, but I believe the preceding paragraph in Singulari Quadam is important to read to obtain proper context.

The proper context for Pius XI’s quotes in post #27 is the reality that:
“But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (Bl John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10).

‘It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).’
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

 

[triumphguy]

What actions do you feel turn people away from the Church ?

What do you do to actively invite people into the Church ?

Actions that turn people away from the Church include:

hiding abuse scandals, involvement in “residential schools”, financial scandals, Bishop of Bling, typical scandalous human behaviour .

And more subtle stuff like jumping all over a new poster on CAF who is searching for the faith.

What do I do to invite people into the church?

coordinate and teach RCIA at the parish, teach sacramental prep in the parish, teach religion and work as chaplain in a huge urban high school where most kids don’t go to church, have a sacramental prep program in the school, give talks at the local retreat centre, give talks on the faith at a huge teachers convention (with 20,000 attendees),

You know - stuff like that.

Thanks for asking.

What do you do?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The proper context for Pius XI’s quotes in post #27 is the reality that:
“But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (Bl John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10).

‘It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).’
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

So are you of the opinion that missions and evangelization are of no value and all “good” people go to heaven.

Because that thinking is a gross abuse of what you quoted.

 

[Abu]

Jon S #33
So are you of the opinion that missions and evangelization are of no value and all “good” people go to heaven.

False. The Popes have clearly taught what is required, and the fact that we do not judge the individual’s salvation but God does.

Post #20:
“Further, ‘Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.’ (Phil 2:12).
We have a duty, and should strive, to offer the fullness of truth to all who seek it so that they may grow in grace and be able to offer it to others also.”

 

[teachccd]

I hope you would agree though that it is critical to share the love of Christ with the world and present the gospel and teach people how to obey God , as opposed to sitting back wishing everyone goes to heaven.

As a catechist who spends the majority of my time doing this I would have to agree!!