How bad does it have to get?

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That’s a good point.
The media does not speak much about it. Some people are disposable evidently, depending on whether their plight is popular. (all causes are important!!)

The women’s liberation movement has not made women more free.
The world is now more dangerous for women than ever. Oddly enough the detachment of sex from procreation has been disastrous for women. More objectification, more poverty.
Yes, and the trend needs to stop. Fashion designers control everything from selling this body type, this face, these cosmetics… etc. And clothing buyers, not women, select what is stocked in their stores.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

The National Organization for Women was founded in 1966. See what they’re up to today at now.org

Ed
 
I don’t mean to sound hyperbolic, but has a society ever been in such a chaotic state as ours is in today? I mean, there must be some sort of precedent or worse time than this, right…?🤷
Ancient Rome was pretty bad.
 
Ancient Rome was pretty bad.
That’s true. I guess I was just thinking of the attempted redefining of marriage and gender dysphoria that our society is dealing with today. I don’t know if you can really measure how morally bad a society is (or how disrupted the social fabric is), maybe that we’re just dealing with different issues. Thanks for the perspective!
 
God did not intervene in those events. If you have evidence of such an intervention, please provide it. I genuinely think you will make quite a name for yourself among historians across the world.
🙂

I didn’t say that God intervened in any of them so as to change the outcome. (Although He may have done so subtly).

My only point was that the current USA or its people have faced far worse than the difficulties we have now and have gone on. I’d much rather be living now than in any of the times I named, or even in the 1960s (a time we now idealize because of its music).

And even in the 1970s (a rather mild time if there ever was one), there were those who said America was done.

ICXC NIKA
 
That’s true. I guess I was just thinking of the attempted redefining of marriage and gender dysphoria that our society is dealing with today. I don’t know if you can really measure how morally bad a society is (or how disrupted the social fabric is), maybe that we’re just dealing with different issues. Thanks for the perspective!
Sexual immorality is sexual immorality.

Ed
 
🙂

I didn’t say that God intervened in any of them so as to change the outcome. (Although He may have done so subtly).

My only point was that the current USA or its people have faced far worse than the difficulties we have now and have gone on. I’d much rather be living now than in any of the times I named, or even in the 1960s (a time we now idealize because of its music).

And even in the 1970s (a rather mild time if there ever was one), there were those who said America was done.

ICXC NIKA
I don’t idealize the early 1960s for its music but for the fact that people lived out their Christian beliefs more and were civil more toward each other. That I will uphold till I die. The radicals really took off with their nonsense in the 1970s.

Ed
 
Contemplating what goout’s christian friend said… that we have every comfort, etc. and that life is good. Easy for a Christian life that has been insulated by truth and love. But what about the millions upon millions of lives and hearts that have been destroyed by abortion, pornography, divorce, abuse, addiction, neglect, and indifference?

The fact is, the concept of marriage and family are disintegrating–something unseen to this degree in history. Such unhappiness, hard-heartedness, and loneliness in this world, as a result.
 
That’s a good point.
The media does not speak much about it. Some people are disposable evidently, depending on whether their plight is popular. (all causes are important!!)

The women’s liberation movement has not made women more free.
The world is now more dangerous for women than ever. Oddly enough the detachment of sex from procreation has been disastrous for women. More objectification, more poverty.
This is all true. However, I feel that traditional gender roles were somewhat oppressive. I don’t know the exact nature of the women’s liberation movement but women were and in some cases still are treated as second class citizens (especially in nonwestern countries). In too many cases a woman being submissive to a man can be a bad thing, especially if the man controls the woman. Divorce rates are low in non western countries but the societies are more male dominated, which can lead to subjugation of woman due to their default status as the weaker gender. Ultimately, I feel traditional gender roles are great but ripe for abuse by some men.

I hold traditional Catholic views but that is my opinion on gender.
 
This is all true. However, I feel that traditional gender roles were somewhat oppressive. I don’t know the exact nature of the women’s liberation movement but women were and in some cases still are treated as second class citizens (especially in nonwestern countries). In too many cases a woman being submissive to a man can be a bad thing, especially if the man controls the woman. Divorce rates are low in non western countries but the societies are more male dominated, which can lead to subjugation of woman due to their default status as the weaker gender. Ultimately, I feel traditional gender roles are great but ripe for abuse by some men.

I hold traditional Catholic views but that is my opinion on gender.
Im not sure you believe that traditional gender roles are oppressive because they are not to those who would like to live their life that way.

I think what you are trying to say is that it is oppressive to view a woman as a second-class citizen who should be controlled and restricted to what another person or society says she should be. Am I correct?

A woman who lives her life conformed to the traditional gender role of bearing children, nursing them, and solely raising them takes the extreme risk of putting herself into a very vulnerable situation which can be easily oppressed, yes. Therefore she must be wise about getting into this situation. There are certain societal constructs, such as marriage, which protect vulnerable women and babies in this situation.
 
This is all true. However, I feel that traditional gender roles were somewhat oppressive. I don’t know the exact nature of the women’s liberation movement but women were and in some cases still are treated as second class citizens (especially in nonwestern countries). In too many cases a woman being submissive to a man can be a bad thing, especially if the man controls the woman. Divorce rates are low in non western countries but the societies are more male dominated, which can lead to subjugation of woman due to their default status as the weaker gender. Ultimately, I feel traditional gender roles are great but ripe for abuse by some men.

I hold traditional Catholic views but that is my opinion on gender.
The Church has spoken about gender roles. I lived through the Women’s Liberation Movement. Our perspective on the roles of men and women in society should be formed by the Church and not radical feminists.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html

Ed
 
Im not sure you believe that traditional gender roles are oppressive because they are not to those who would like to live their life that way.

I think what you are trying to say is that it is oppressive to view a woman as a second-class citizen who should be controlled and restricted to what another person or society says she should be. Am I correct?

A woman who lives her life conformed to the traditional gender role of bearing children, nursing them, and solely raising them takes the extreme risk of putting herself into a very vulnerable situation which can be easily oppressed, yes. Therefore she must be wise about getting into this situation. There are certain societal constructs, such as marriage, which protect vulnerable women and babies in this situation.
That is the message every man and woman contemplating marriage must hear. Thank you.

Ed
 
Im not sure you believe that traditional gender roles are oppressive because they are not to those who would like to live their life that way.

I think what you are trying to say is that it is oppressive to view a woman as a second-class citizen who should be controlled and restricted to what another person or society says she should be. Am I correct?

A woman who lives her life conformed to the traditional gender role of bearing children, nursing them, and solely raising them takes the extreme risk of putting herself into a very vulnerable situation which can be easily oppressed, yes. Therefore she must be wise about getting into this situation. There are certain societal constructs, such as marriage, which protect vulnerable women and babies in this situation.
Yes, I am not eloquent as my words just come out as a train of thought. It is definitely not oppressive to those who want to live their life that way. However marriage as an ideal defined by Catholicism (which I believe is not a societal construct) is definitely a boon. Marriage as viewed in many Middle-Eastern countries is actually demeaning to women in the form of polygamy and woman being relegated to almost servant status.
 
I will start with a quote from Peter Kreeft.
“At some point, a culture or an individual gets so bad that if they don’t stop themselves, God does. No one knows where that point is until it’s too late.”

He was talking about university campus culture, but maybe it is time to look at the current political situation and the options that are available to us this fall. (in the US)

What options do we, catholics, christians, agnostics, etc.have?
Well, God promised to never again wipe out the whole human race, so…it could get pretty ugly before Jesus returns. It’s been worse than this before. There is still much more that could go wrong…unfortunately. 😦
 
Contemplating what goout’s christian friend said… that we have every comfort, etc. and that life is good. Easy for a Christian life that has been insulated by truth and love. But what about the millions upon millions of lives and hearts that have been destroyed by abortion, pornography, divorce, abuse, addiction, neglect, and indifference?

The fact is, the concept of marriage and family are disintegrating–something unseen to this degree in history. Such unhappiness, hard-heartedness, and loneliness in this world, as a result.
It was made to be this way. The family had to be destroyed. The right reason concepts of human sexuality had to be destroyed. Time doesn’t change things, only people do.

amazon.com/Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption-Disguised/dp/1581824599

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

togetherforlifeonline.com/marriage-preparation/

Marriage is not a power struggle but a partnership that is discerned before the ceremony.

Ed
 
Well, God promised to never again wipe out the whole human race, so…it could get pretty ugly before Jesus returns. It’s been worse than this before. There is still much more that could go wrong…unfortunately. 😦
Yes. 😌 But we must remind ourselves that Christ has already won the battle.
At every sadness, ALL THINGS, yes, even terrible sins, work together for great blessings, goodness and ultimately joy for those who believe in Him. Many of us can attest to this. So keep on keepin on!
 
Ancient Rome was pretty bad.
It was, and was more open about it IMO.
Nero was able to burn Christians for torchlight at his parties. Babies were tossed out on the hills for the wolves if their fathers didn’t feel like accepting them. Christians used to rescue them, and were considered crazy for it, as I understand.

Now we have abortion, which is much worse but we keep it behind closed doors so most people don’t have a clue what’s going on.
We need to keep praying for an end to the holocaust.

And we need to uphold standards of decent treatment for everyone as much as possible, so we don’t slide into decay like Rome.

.
 
It was, and was more open about it IMO.
Nero was able to burn Christians for torchlight at his parties. Babies were tossed out on the hills for the wolves if their fathers didn’t feel like accepting them. Christians used to rescue them, and were considered crazy for it, as I understand.

Now we have abortion, which is much worse but we keep it behind closed doors so most people don’t have a clue what’s going on.
We need to keep praying for an end to the holocaust.

And we need to uphold standards of decent treatment for everyone as much as possible, so we don’t slide into decay like Rome.

.
Abortion is worse only because of the numbers involved, but we are also a far more crowded society.

The more people there are, the more sins of all kinds will be committed.

ICXC NIKA
 
Abortion is worse only because of the numbers involved, but we are also a far more crowded society.

The more people there are, the more sins of all kinds will be committed.

ICXC NIKA
It’s hard to compare evil. Evil is evil. But one thing insidious thing about abortion is the deception element.

When Nero burnt Christians, it was there for all to see.
Abortion is a mostly hidden crime and so it can be called “health care” and no one sees the lie.
Satan is “the deceiver” and it seems he’s found the perfect way to do his work.
 
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