How Can A Homosexual Relate Positively To Sexuality?

[bingbang]

And those people would be known as “Wrong”.

Homosexual “marriage” is a new concoction. Never in all of history has ANY society approving of homosexuality in part, ever condoned homosexual marriage formally.

To answer the OP, though, WHY define yourself through sexuality!!! Really! You (or anybody, regardless of sexual ID, Straight, Gay, Bi, Tri, Pan…) are so much more than that!!! It bothers me that this is made such a big deal of.

Second, I think it was this thread that asks about positive role models (it’s this thread, right?) and, if so, yeah, I can agree with that because there aren’t any celibate by choice homosexuals that get a lot of media attention. As a matter of fact, the ones that do get air time, MOSTLY FOR their sexual life-style, are the ones that are slutting it up and having lousy love-lifes. George Michael, Melissa Etheridge…the media is so bent on promoting the perverseness of homosexual acts, I think, in part, to have more news to tell.

Ellen DeGeneres & Portia DelRossi don’t make the news much anymore, I think Nathan Lane, Allan Cumming, and Sir Ian McKellen are all in long term relationships at this point…note the lack of them in the headlines.

I think Sir Elton John is an exception to this…but, whenever something does come up, something is made of his sexuality.

The media promotes anti-life propeganda, but, it’s not for the good of anybody.

Third, perhaps this is just from spending time at the wrong homosexual dating sites, but, they are all hostile to Catholicism and God. Even if they are not bashing/hating God, they are hating His order. They also advocate the use of marital aids in the bedroom…such inhibitors are…disrespectful to conjugation.

History doesn’t make something right. Slavery has been accepted in a lot of the world for thousands of years but that doesn’t make it right. You can’t say that a man made social contract can be wrong (and marriage is a man made social contract for most).

And if I was gay and some 2,000 year old religion stated that it was a sin to show how much I love my partner than I would probably hate them as well.

 

[bingbang]

NONSENSE YOU DON’T HAVE A CHOICE!!! You give homosexuals everywhere a bad name if you claim that!!! You do nothing but make it look like they are lustful perverts who should be looked down upon!!! Homosexuals are God’s children with intellect and free will, THEY ARE NOT VICTIMS, THEY ARE NOT SLAVES!! Claiming you do not have a choice means you are powerless and, therefore, second class, and therefore, not really human.

THERE IS ALWAYS A CHOICE!!! YOU ~ALWAYS~ HAVE A CHOICE!!!

Yes he has a choice, but IMO the pros outweigh the cons of doing the act with his partner. I don’t know if you are married, but how would you feel if you were not allowed to have sex with your partner because it was a sin?

 

[adstrinity]

And perhaps you didn’t call me anything but the meaning was there.

…What meaning? To the best of my knowledge, I didn’t put any meaning behind it. …That is to say, I wanted you to see how it may be perceived, not that it had any malicious intent.

 

[bingbang]

Alright then. That’s one thing. You don’t WANT to be celebate. You don’t WANT to deny yourself.

Have you asked God? Have you prayed about it?

**
Your options:

1. Do God’s will.
2. Do your will.

If you do your will, and, this is more than in just sexual terms, but, any sin, you have left God. If you do God’s will, you have left you.**

Without God, you are living a life without love. Love, true love, can only come from God. I hope your mate is a good man, all things considered, and truly loves you, in the highest way, and isn’t just using you. And, I truly wish the same of you for him…and all your loved ones.

Something tells me you mean this sensually.

And, again, it’s all down to you…

Let me mention, that my favourite book of the Bible is the Book of Tobit. For three days and three nights, before Tobit took his wife as his wife, they prayed, praising God. …Can you and your partner be celebate in prayer for three days praising God and asking him to bless your companionship?

Yes.

I stand by what I said about how you phrased things.

I do believe that that is true.

Ta muchly.

You probably have been called worse things, because I didn’t call you anything.

I am sorry if you have been physically hurt because of others. But, again, note the victim mentality in this entire previous sentence.

I am glad you have found a coping mechanism, as long as you do not let it make you become defensive.

Let me ask you, are you religious at all? You cannot…mmmm…rationally/logically go along with what the Catholic Church teaches at this point; do you believe in God at all? Agnostic or anything like that?

It is REALLY arrogant to assume that you know God’s will. Even the pope does not know God’s will.

 

[Dale_M]

HauntedJame;6876223:

Btw, why do everyone call it same sex attraction? Makes it sound like everyone is talking about pre-Victorian stuff.

Everyone calls it “same sex attraction” because it is like an affliction that you have to overcome, not something that you are. It is like if you have a propensity to be an alcoholic in a lot of Catholics’ minds.

Just to clarify Bingbang’s answer, the Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is not, in itself, sinful. A person with homosexual inclination is not required to try to be heterosexual. The Church does require that people abstain from homosexual activity.

HauntedJame, yes, the phrase “same-sex attraction” and the abbreviation as SSA does seem stilted to outsiders. The explanation I heard is that “same-sex attraction” is the preferred term used by the Courage Apostolate. The idea is to distinguish between SSA as an inclination that a person might feel, and “gay” which is an identity which defines oneself.

I suppose Courage could have used the phase “homosexual inclination”, which seems to be what is used in Church documents. I can’t explain why they didn’t.

 

[adstrinity]

It is REALLY arrogant to assume that you know God’s will. Even the pope does not know God’s will.

Are you saying man cannot know God’s will? Are you implying that morality is subjective?

We know God’s will, though. Self-sacrifice and love.

 

[HauntedJame]

…What meaning? To the best of my knowledge, I didn’t put any meaning behind it. …That is to say, I wanted you to see how it may be perceived, not that it had any malicious intent.

To me it appeared to have some malicious intent, but then again it is a sensitive subject for all of us. I did not mean to put words in your mouth, any more than you did.

I still disagree strongly with you, simply because I believe that this perticular teaching of the Church is wrong, and since sex outside of marriage is a big sin, the way I see that being rectified is simply to allow gay marriage in the Church. However, I do realise that this is simply impossible because of the current doctrines. But doctrines have been changed all the time over the centuries, so perhaps it is simply a matter of time? I doubt it will be in my lifetime, which I find a shame.

 

[HauntedJame]

Are you saying man cannot know God’s will? Are you implying that morality is subjective?

We know God’s will, though. Self-sacrifice and love.

That’s part of God’s will. The rest we don’t know.

 

[adstrinity]

To me it appeared to have some malicious intent, but then again it is a sensitive subject for all of us. I did not mean to put words in your mouth, any more than you did.

I still disagree strongly with you, simply because I believe that this perticular teaching of the Church is wrong, and since sex outside of marriage is a big sin, the way I see that being rectified is simply to allow gay marriage in the Church. However, I do realise that this is simply impossible because of the current doctrines. But doctrines have been changed all the time over the centuries, so perhaps it is simply a matter of time? I doubt it will be in my lifetime, which I find a shame.

I must correct an error: no Catholic doctrine has ever changed.

 

[Dale_M]

That’s the ONLY kind of marriage there is.

In the eyes of the Catholic Church, and many other Christian denominations, yes. But in the laws of several countries, and states of the US, gay marriage very much does exist.

Homosexual “marriage” is a new concoction. Never in all of history has ANY society approving of homosexuality in part, ever condoned homosexual marriage formally.

In most of history, in most societies, marriage has been about inheritance and property rights. Women were considered the property of their fathers.

Some traditions aren’t to be kept at all costs. Change sometimes promotes the common good.

Second, I think it was this thread that asks about positive role models (it’s this thread, right?) and, if so, yeah, I can agree with that because there aren’t any celibate by choice homosexuals that get a lot of media attention. As a matter of fact, the ones that do get air time, MOSTLY FOR their sexual life-style, are the ones that are slutting it up and having lousy love-lifes. George Michael, Melissa Etheridge…the media is so bent on promoting the perverseness of homosexual acts, I think, in part, to have more news to tell.

I would say that the same is true for heterosexual celebrities. Humans enjoy juicy gossip, and that is what the media serves up. Its profitable for the media, and their advertisers.

Third, perhaps this is just from spending time at the wrong homosexual dating sites, but, they are all hostile to Catholicism and God. Even if they are not bashing/hating God, they are hating His order.

I have never spent time on homosexual dating sites, but I have spent quite a bit of time on a couple LGBT blogs. Yes, there does seem to be quite a bit of hostility towards Christianity. The few Christians who do speak up have to defend themselves from a lot of barbs thrown their way. But perhaps that isn’t surprising, considering how hostile much of Christianity is to being gay. The Religious Right in the US has made being anti-gay a key plank in their political agenda. Its a drum they have beaten for 30 years. But perhaps worse is the shame and self-loathing that many children feel when raised by parents who feel that homosexuality is an abomination. Naturally, when someone shakes off such an upbringing, they will feel antipathy towards it.

 

[HauntedJame]

Just to clarify Bingbang’s answer, the Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is not, in itself, sinful. A person with homosexual inclination is not required to try to be heterosexual. The Church does require that people abstain from homosexual activity.

HauntedJame, yes, the phrase “same-sex attraction” and the abbreviation as SSA does seem stilted to outsiders. The explanation I heard is that “same-sex attraction” is the preferred term used by the Courage Apostolate. The idea is to distinguish between SSA as an inclination that a person might feel, and “gay” which is an identity which defines oneself.

I suppose Courage could have used the phase “homosexual inclination”, which seems to be what is used in Church documents. I can’t explain why they didn’t.

Thank you! This has cleared things up a bit in my head about it. I think that we (Americans) enjoy using abbreviations so maybe that is why it stuck with SSA? And it makes sense to make a distinction…I do prefer the Church documents…it’s halfway there with the homosexual part Thanks again!

 

[HauntedJame]

I must correct an error: no Catholic doctrine has ever changed.

It sort of has. Everything something gets translated or modernised, it gets changed. Like the word sodomy, which used to refer to all non-reproductive sexual encounters, is now only referred to regarding what many consider “gay sex”. =

The Bible has been edited a lot of times, and each time something has changed. A turn of phrase suddenly gives new meaning, or changing our perception of it. It happened a lot during the Medieval times, before printing.

Seems like all you do is correcting, rather than answering.

 

[MichaelR]

Re: Marriage in history…I don’t think you can use the example of marriage in history as a template of what marriage should or shouldn’t be…after all, for a huge period of time, a couple could declare themselves married without actually having married just because they’d lived together for a while, and it was accepted as such in the eyes of the law LOL You wouldn’t get away with that these days, so actually, marriage has already changed.

Re: any offence or malicious intent behind the words of a previous post…it might be worth keeping in mind that typing in capitals is widely seen as shouting on forums/chatrooms/emails, and I know if someone was shouting at me, I’d take it pretty badly too LOL

Re: Assuming to know God’s will…do you have a telephone to God there to know what He might or might not want? If so, I’d love to have a go…LOL Seriously, no human can be entirely sure of God’s will. We have to rely on interpretation of very old texts that have been translated and adapted several times over a long period of time, and in many of those cases politics taking a role. And this interpretation, when all is said and done, is done by humans…people who are not infallible themselves. And on top of all of that, so many religious people take on a pick and choose culture, where they speak out against one thing that is a ‘sin’, but will carry out other things that are spoken against in the bible without worry. The conclusion…it’s all too complicated for people like us to know for absolute sure what is right, what is wrong, and most of all, how other people should live their lives.

Re: the original post…I think it must be a very difficult position to be in. When it all comes down to it, a person in that position has to do what feels right to them. Some people may feel more content and happy remaining celibate as a homosexual, others might feel content and happy to find love, a gift to anyone lucky enough to find it these days. I’m not sure there are many good ‘rolemodels’ in the media for many kinds of healthy sexuality/relationships to be honest, homosexual, heterosexual or otherwise LOL Simply because a bulk of society seems to have a thirst for angsty stories or melodramatic gossip, which is usually around when things go badly in celebrity or well known peoples lives. I would hope that these people facing a life of religion and issues with sexuality will find their rolemodels through the support of family, friends and loved ones…I personally think they can be the best of rolemodels, not necessarily for having been in a similar situation, as the liklihood is they haven’t, but simply for dealing with life in general, as we all have to, and still having time, care and love to be there to support someone else when they need it.

 

[bingbang]

Are you saying man cannot know God’s will? Are you implying that morality is subjective?

We know God’s will, though. Self-sacrifice and love.

Well I agree with the love part but I don’t really agree with self sacrifice. If self sacrifice is God’s will, where does it end? Does God want us to be like hindu ascetics that eat basically nothing and don’t bath?

Anyway, I don’t really know if morality is subjective or not. I think that your intentions have something to do with how right an action actually is.

 

[bingbang]

It sort of has. Everything something gets translated or modernised, it gets changed. Like the word sodomy, which used to refer to all non-reproductive sexual encounters, is now only referred to regarding what many consider “gay sex”. =

The Bible has been edited a lot of times, and each time something has changed. A turn of phrase suddenly gives new meaning, or changing our perception of it. It happened a lot during the Medieval times, before printing.

Seems like all you do is correcting, rather than answering.

The “editing” of the bible is more about people copying the bible making mistakes (or even purposely changing words around to make a different meaning) BUT there was never some conspiracy about editing or changing the Bible to give it a new meaning.

 

[HauntedJame]

The “editing” of the bible is more about people copying the bible making mistakes (or even purposely changing words around to make a different meaning) BUT there was never some conspiracy about editing or changing the Bible to give it a new meaning.

I never said there was a conspiracy. Most likely, the changes were made by individuals to suit the times.

 

[bingbang]

I never said there was a conspiracy. Most likely, the changes were made by individuals to suit the times.

These changes do not exist today though, unless they were done in the first couple of centuries. Anything added or subtracted in the middle ages is obviously going to be seen as invalid.

 

[adstrinity]

It sort of has. Everything something gets translated or modernised, it gets changed. Like the word sodomy, which used to refer to all non-reproductive sexual encounters, is now only referred to regarding what many consider “gay sex”. =

The Bible has been edited a lot of times, and each time something has changed. A turn of phrase suddenly gives new meaning, or changing our perception of it. It happened a lot during the Medieval times, before printing.

Seems like all you do is correcting, rather than answering.

No, no doctrine has ever changed. The Bible is not doctrine.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church will NEVER condone homosexual “marriages” because sodomy is one of the Four Sins That Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance. The other three are murder, defrauding a labourer his wages, and oppression of the poor. All sins that take life away. For all accounts and purposes, sodomy is as bad as murder. I know people don’t want to hear this, I know people will get defensive about this and make excuses for this, (“O Lord, before my mouth, And a protecting door about my lips. Incline not my heart to evil words, To make excuses in sin.”), and try to justify it, but, it’s true.

Also, yes, the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ, who abides by Him, says that there is no such thing as homosexual “marriage” because God says there is no such thing as homosexual “marriage”.

God’s love is a self-giving love. That IS what we are ALL called to do, take up our crosses daily and follow Him. Porneia is the lowest of the loves, agape is the highest.

Lastly, Ephisians 5:

"[21] Being subject one to another, in the fear of Christ. [22] Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: [23] Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. [24] Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. [25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:

[24]* “Church is subject to Christ”… The church then, according to St. Paul, is ever obedient to Christ, and can never fall from him, but remain faithful to him, unspotted and unchanged to the end of the world.*
[26] That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. [28] So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. [29] For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: [30] Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. [31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. [32] This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. [33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband."

Note that not only must we be subject to one another and be self-giving, the WIFE is called to be subject to the husband. The HUSBAND, is called to love his wife so much love, he must protect her life at all costs to his.

In a homosexual union, who is the husband and who is the wife?

 

[MichaelR]

because God says there is no such thing as homosexual “marriage”.

He did? He said this to you, did He? He personally wrote you a letter or picked up a phone just to tell you that? When all of the other horrific things that happen throughout this world continue, He decided to take the time to phone you instead to give you His personal word on the matter?

Sorry. Anyone who asserts to know exactly what He wants is either so overwhelmingly arrogant, or deluded…it’s called faith for a reason, because someone is required to have faith to follow a religion because of the lack of evidence and direct instruction/word personally bestowed by God to each person.

So, unless you have personal conversations with God, I don’t believe you are qualified to tell other people with complete and utter authority exactly what God does or doesn’t want.

You can make suggestions. You can say what you think or feel based on what evidence there is or what you believe. But to say it as if your word is law is just arrogant and, quite frankly, short sighted…in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with it. I don’t assert that God thinks it so after all.

The problem is, people who vehemently want to speak out against homosexuality, for whatever reason, are very good at picking bits and pieces out of the bible, sometimes even out of context, to support their view, completely ignoring other parts that might contradict their view. Most of those I know who do it also have a tendency of happily doing something that is listed as ‘bad’ in the bible, but has been conveniently ignored because it happens to be something they want to do. From the clothes they wear to the things they eat.

Picking and choosing parts of the bible, and picking and choosing what is important to follow and what doesn’t matter anymore, does not a logical or reasoned argument make. It’s matching evidence to a theory already held, not reaching a conclusion based on all the evidence provided.

Elementary, my dear Watson LOL

 

[HauntedJame]

No, no doctrine has ever changed. The Bible is not doctrine.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church will NEVER condone homosexual “marriages” because sodomy is one of the Four Sins That Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance. The other three are murder, defrauding a labourer his wages, and oppression of the poor. All sins that take life away. For all accounts and purposes, sodomy is as bad as murder. I know people don’t want to hear this, I know people will get defensive about this and make excuses for this, (“O Lord, before my mouth, And a protecting door about my lips. Incline not my heart to evil words, To make excuses in sin.”), and try to justify it, but, it’s true.

Also, yes, the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ, who abides by Him, says that there is no such thing as homosexual “marriage” because God says there is no such thing as homosexual “marriage”.

God’s love is a self-giving love. That IS what we are ALL called to do, take up our crosses daily and follow Him. Porneia is the lowest of the loves, agape is the highest.

Lastly, Ephisians 5:

"[21] Being subject one to another, in the fear of Christ. [22] Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: [23] Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. [24] Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. [25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:

[24]* “Church is subject to Christ”… The church then, according to St. Paul, is ever obedient to Christ, and can never fall from him, but remain faithful to him, unspotted and unchanged to the end of the world.*
[26] That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. [28] So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. [29] For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: [30] Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. [31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. [32] This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. [33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband."

Note that not only must we be subject to one another and be self-giving, the WIFE is called to be subject to the husband. The HUSBAND, is called to love his wife so much love, he must protect her life at all costs to his.

In a homosexual union, who is the husband and who is the wife?

If it meant I could be married, I’d put on a wedding dress and call myself Miss!

And sodomy isn’t just homosexual behaviour…it’s anything that doesn’t produce a child. In a sense, even masturbation is sodomy. It just really angers me that logic flies out of the window when it comes to homosexuals. How can making love with the same sex be as bad as murdering someone? How? It is just…ridiculous.