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adstrinity
Guest
All sexual perversions are equivocated with murder, not just homosexual sex.
HauntedJame, you can get married, I’m guessing there’s nothing impeding you. You may not marry another male, however.
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HauntedJame
Guest
But I can’t function sexually with a woman. So it would not be fair to marry a woman and besides, it’s the last thing I’d want. I want to marry the man I love.
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Dale_M
Guest
hmmm… how do you justify that statement? And are you saying that is your personal belief, or that it is Catholic teaching? If you are claiming that it is Catholic doctrine, please cite your source(s) in support.
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maria_teresa
Guest
Thank you, Deo Volente, for your thoughtful and articulate response. Your optimism that the Catholic Church will ultimately have an open discussion concerning homosexuality as a ‘variant’ of Sexuality has already been set off-limits as happening. In the Church’s own teaching about Herself, the topic of homosexuality has entered the ‘infallible teaching of the Church’: much like that of a male-only priesthood. That Infallibility comes not by way of an Ex Cathedra statement, but by the Church’s Ordinary and Universal Magisterium; again, as has the topic of a male-only priesthood.
The Church will point out if questioned, that She has always and everywhere considered homosexuality to be a perversion and a threat to a healthy society. The fact that She, the Church, has always and everywhere taught this, is the classic definition of the Ordinary, Universal Magisterium … the only other source of Infallibility in the Church.
This fact about the Church’s Teaching on homosexuality as a perversion and a threat to a healthy society has recently been questioned in the light of current genetic studies on homosexuality. She, the Church, has responded clearly and in no uncertain terms, that if a genetic component to homosexuality is discovered, homosexuality is still deviant, perverse (disordered) and contrary to healthy sexuality and is always a threat to society.
If I may elaborate, I’d like to more fully describe the implications for homosexuals of the Church’s Infallibly held position regarding homosexuals, both personally and socially. I would like to place this in the context of your very apt description, Deo Volente: That the homosexual Catholic has a “high and difficult calling”.
Personally, the Catholic homosexual has to overcome with Our Lord’s Grace the internalization of fear, shame, guilt, self-loathing, alienation, less-than feelings, etc.: no mean feat considering the psychological damage inherent with these feelings. The glass half empty often finds it incomprehensible to think of itself as the glass half full. Only a relationship with Our Lord can remediate much of this, and allow the homosexual to see himself/herself as gifted rather than victimized. However, the homosexual will more than likely, barring a complete healing by God, have many of these feelings as a lingering companion that need attention.
Additionally, the Catholic homosexual will have to deal with intense sorrow and grief at the loss of and the unattainability of the ‘normal or healthy’ state, and with it all the nice things that accrue to the healthy state.
Because of the length of this post, I’ve had to break it up into two sections. Please, see the following post for further discussion and conclusion.
maria_teresa
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maria_teresa
Guest
Continued Discussion and Summation from above post:
Socially, the Catholic homosexual is placed in the position of Charydbis and Scylla; the proverbial rock and hard place. There can be no doubt for anyone willing to look at the history of homosexuality in Society and the Church that throughout the centuries homosexuals were treated and spoken of in both places, i.e., Church and State, as an abomination. A healthy society always saw homosexuality as a threat to its integrity, and accordingly saw punishment, most often severe punishment, as the only proper response to this ‘perversion’. The Church not only supported the societies’ behavior in this approach, but, often, openly encouraged it.
The Church herself, as a public institution, meted out Her own severe canonical punishments to further contain ‘the spread of this perversion’. I will not burden this already long post in detailing some of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church and their hair-curling views and statements concerning homosexuality and Homosexual Persons. If one is so inclined, it is easy enough to find multiple examples of the ‘horror’ that these institutions, i.e., Church and State, expressed about homosexuality and Homosexual Persons.
A further demonstration of the Church’s abhorrence of homosexuality, although currently muted but no less apparent, is Her active exclusion of considering any homosexual worthy of consideration for Sainthood. Of the hundreds of Beatifications and Canonizations in the last 45 years, not one homosexual has been chosen to exemplify publicly the heroic sanctity of Chastity in this difficult life. This can only testify that the Church is still loathe to show any sort of ‘place’ for homosexuals publicly.
What does this mean to a homosexual in regards to their public place? The easy, and seemingly, correct answer is “the closet”; never admit, in any way, to one’s homosexuality. The Church regards chaste, homosexual companionship as almost an impossibility for holiness. She in no way wants to entertain the notion, let alone see it as a viable choice for homosexuals. She views it much like the impossibility for homosexuals to enter the Religious Life. Always, She speaks of the near occasion of sin, and the possibility of ‘scandal’, in such relationships. Are there such relationships, of course. But, they are the very rare exception, indeed.
So, at the end of the day, and the end of this long post, homosexuals, Catholic or otherwise, seeking to live a life united to Our Lord and Our Lady in Chastity, can find little solace in the private or public sphere; however, that is manifested. Our only true comfort, joy, peace and serenity amidst our suffering is found in Our Lord’s Love for us and the burying of our own suffering within His Own, to use as He sees fit. Our Lord will use the lowly to confound the wise, and permit the hidden (as Our Lady) to bring untold graces to an often unkind world. Joy is not the absence of pain, but the Presence of God.
Deo Volente, I may disagree with you about the Catholic Church’s ‘inevitable’ discussion concerning homosexuality as a variant of Sexuality, but I heartily agree with your final summation:
Socially, the Catholic homosexual is placed in the position of Charydbis and Scylla; the proverbial rock and hard place. There can be no doubt for anyone willing to look at the history of homosexuality in Society and the Church that throughout the centuries homosexuals were treated and spoken of in both places, i.e., Church and State, as an abomination. A healthy society always saw homosexuality as a threat to its integrity, and accordingly saw punishment, most often severe punishment, as the only proper response to this ‘perversion’. The Church not only supported the societies’ behavior in this approach, but, often, openly encouraged it.
The Church herself, as a public institution, meted out Her own severe canonical punishments to further contain ‘the spread of this perversion’. I will not burden this already long post in detailing some of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church and their hair-curling views and statements concerning homosexuality and Homosexual Persons. If one is so inclined, it is easy enough to find multiple examples of the ‘horror’ that these institutions, i.e., Church and State, expressed about homosexuality and Homosexual Persons.
A further demonstration of the Church’s abhorrence of homosexuality, although currently muted but no less apparent, is Her active exclusion of considering any homosexual worthy of consideration for Sainthood. Of the hundreds of Beatifications and Canonizations in the last 45 years, not one homosexual has been chosen to exemplify publicly the heroic sanctity of Chastity in this difficult life. This can only testify that the Church is still loathe to show any sort of ‘place’ for homosexuals publicly.
What does this mean to a homosexual in regards to their public place? The easy, and seemingly, correct answer is “the closet”; never admit, in any way, to one’s homosexuality. The Church regards chaste, homosexual companionship as almost an impossibility for holiness. She in no way wants to entertain the notion, let alone see it as a viable choice for homosexuals. She views it much like the impossibility for homosexuals to enter the Religious Life. Always, She speaks of the near occasion of sin, and the possibility of ‘scandal’, in such relationships. Are there such relationships, of course. But, they are the very rare exception, indeed.
So, at the end of the day, and the end of this long post, homosexuals, Catholic or otherwise, seeking to live a life united to Our Lord and Our Lady in Chastity, can find little solace in the private or public sphere; however, that is manifested. Our only true comfort, joy, peace and serenity amidst our suffering is found in Our Lord’s Love for us and the burying of our own suffering within His Own, to use as He sees fit. Our Lord will use the lowly to confound the wise, and permit the hidden (as Our Lady) to bring untold graces to an often unkind world. Joy is not the absence of pain, but the Presence of God.
Deo Volente, I may disagree with you about the Catholic Church’s ‘inevitable’ discussion concerning homosexuality as a variant of Sexuality, but I heartily agree with your final summation:
maria_teresa
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st_lucy
Guest
I am sorry but I am going to jump in right here. I have not read the whole thread but this post really struck me.
We all have crosses to bare, some might seem hard than others, but here I am going to reply to each of yours with mine. Now I am not picking on you or telling you that your cross is easy, but I am going to show you (hopefully) how your statements sound to those of us who know we all have our own crosses to carry.
Now my cross is my inability to have children, or carry a child to term, plus my husband is unwilling to adopt.
You might think, my cross seems small to yours, but from where I am sitting, I would love to drop mine at any given moment, just to have that child I would want. But in my heart I know this is a cross that my Lord has asked me to carry for Him. Is it easy? not even close, it is something I have to wake up to every morning and pray for the strength to carry it with grace. Do I fall, yes almost every day, but I have noticed that when I pray more I am stronger in carrying this cross. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel like crying, or yelling at everyone, or feeling extremely jealousy of my dear friends who have the five, eight, ten and even 13 kids. I just know that God is preparing my soul for something great and the only way to find out what that is to accept my cross and His rules.
I will pray for you and this cross you carry, for I know it is heavy, but I hope you find that if you take away the “me” in it you will find the “He” in the help of carrying it.
We all have crosses to bare, some might seem hard than others, but here I am going to reply to each of yours with mine. Now I am not picking on you or telling you that your cross is easy, but I am going to show you (hopefully) how your statements sound to those of us who know we all have our own crosses to carry.
Now my cross is my inability to have children, or carry a child to term, plus my husband is unwilling to adopt.
I THINK I am MEANT to be a mother. So yes, I am left with little choice if I cannot give birth to my own child. I am not a victim but when the options are taken out, what do I have left? Should I live with out a child, without the touch of a child’s love, the need to be mother, just because the Church says I cannot; steal one from some other parent, use artificial means, etc?
You might think, my cross seems small to yours, but from where I am sitting, I would love to drop mine at any given moment, just to have that child I would want. But in my heart I know this is a cross that my Lord has asked me to carry for Him. Is it easy? not even close, it is something I have to wake up to every morning and pray for the strength to carry it with grace. Do I fall, yes almost every day, but I have noticed that when I pray more I am stronger in carrying this cross. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel like crying, or yelling at everyone, or feeling extremely jealousy of my dear friends who have the five, eight, ten and even 13 kids. I just know that God is preparing my soul for something great and the only way to find out what that is to accept my cross and His rules.
I will pray for you and this cross you carry, for I know it is heavy, but I hope you find that if you take away the “me” in it you will find the “He” in the help of carrying it.
H
HauntedJame
Guest
St Lucy, I am so sorry to hear about this. It must be very difficult.
I suppose the difference is this…you have accepted the Church’s teaching on it and you find strength for it. I, however, can’t accept it. Maybe it is a question of strength, that you are stronger than me, or maybe it is about realising what is taught by men doesn’t necessarily mean that God wants it. I’m raised Catholic, but I am not a Catholic anymore, although I do miss it in a sense. Perhaps it’s why I am doing this, rather than accept it. Perhaps it makes me selfish and unworthy, but…I can’t make myself be alone and isolated from love just because the Church says I can’t have it. I can’t change who I am and maybe that is the true cross I must carry, to feel seperated from the Catholic faith in favour of personal and spiritual growth as the person He made me?
Lucy, I am very sorry for your plight and I can only wish you all the joy and happiness in the world. :hug3:
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st_lucy
Guest
Thank you for your sympathy, I also am very sorry for your plight.
I don’t think I am stronger than you, because believe me I am not, just this morning I woke up crying after dreaming about my lost babies. I think it comes down to the fact that I know that this world is short, and hopefully I if I carry this cross, I will one day be able to be in Heaven with my lost children, who are waiting for me there.
I could decided that the Church is wrong on these matters, (and believe me I did feel this way for a long time) and do what I feel is right for me. But when I have learned to take a step back and learn to see that I when I use phrases like “I want”, “I feel”, “I need” I am not including God in this. As a Catholic I know for a fact that Jesus, gave us ONE church with rules. These rules are there for my safety and when I ignore them I am only hurting myself. It may seem like too much to think that Church is asking me not have the family I always wanted for my time here on earth, but when you stop and think that our stay here is very short, compared to what we where truly made for it is not asking too much.
One of the many things I have learned from my cross, is that earth is short and heaven is for ever, I could chose to live as I wish here on earth for what 80 - 90 years if I am lucky, or I can follow the rules that my Lord has set for me and live with Him forever in complete happiness. When I learned to see it in this light, my cross seems to get lighter by the day.
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andyandely1997
Guest
St. Lucy has some great insight and wisdom, especially, the “I” part of her reply. Our pride keeps us from submitting to God and the Church. There is no other way around it. We want it our way and will come up with so-called reasons not to do it God’s way.
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larkin31
Guest
In answer to the original post, the reason that there are not more chaste homosexual role models is because there are not that many gays to begin with (as a percent of the population, and then you have to assume that very few of them are celibate–not very popular among heteros, either), and to identify oneself as one in many many professions and walks of life is to risk losing one’s livelihood and/or comforts. And then there is the still prevalent social backbiting and criticism and gossip-mongering, common among even among the enlightened “I have no problem with that” crowd.
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HauntedJame
Guest
I understand and respect your faith. It is your life (and afterlife!) and I am glad you have found some measure of peace. I hope your husband is supported and treats you like the goddess you are!
I have found similar conclusions in my life, although towards another side. Life is short and therefore I will love and try and be the best man I can be. But because I believe God made me like this and that there is nothing wrong with me, I have ended up going down the path of having a gay relationship. It makes me happy…he makes me happy. And we both believe that despite everything that goes on, we will be together in this life and the next.
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st_lucy
Guest
Thank you, and I will keep you in my prayers as I hope you will do the same with me.
H
HauntedJame
Guest
I will doThank you, and I will keep you in my prayers as I hope you will do the same with me.
I am sure I need the prayers for something!
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st_lucy
Guest
We all do.I will do
manygift1spirit
New member
I came to this discussion a little late, but to answer the original post, a positive role model, even if an imperfect one, is Ron Belgau, a writer and member of the Courage Apostolate in Seattle (at last check).
Sample of his writing
He admits he still struggles to fight the temptations of the libertine homosexualist movement (my words, not his) and apply the wisdom of the Church’s full teachings to his own life. But he gets that that movement is in the end destructive and contrary to the dignity of the human person.
Sample of his writing
He admits he still struggles to fight the temptations of the libertine homosexualist movement (my words, not his) and apply the wisdom of the Church’s full teachings to his own life. But he gets that that movement is in the end destructive and contrary to the dignity of the human person.
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seeker57
Guest
To answer your last question first, no. These people have nailed their closet doors shut.
To answer your second to the last question, why should they come out? With the condemnation I have seen in these forums, all carefully cloaked in religious euphemisms, they would have to be out of their minds to come out just to be condemned, pitied or chastised.
As far as living chaste lives and receiving the sacraments regularly, gay men and lesbian women are excluded from some of the sacraments as well. (Marriage, holy orders)
I, frankly, cannot imagine what would make someone want to remain Catholic or Christian when they are considered outcasts and disordered humans through no fault of their own.
Perhaps, since I am a Universalist who doesn’t believe in hell, or the devil for that matter, I may have a different perspective. But I, for one, would not blame those who walk away.
manygift1spirit
New member
Coming out demonstrates an affinity and even an affirmation for the culture of identity, in particular gay identity. (They are thinking: I have to say this.) This in a specifically extra-Catholic idea. So there really is no genuinely good reason to do it. It actually shows poor adjustment and/or faith formation. (A healthy well adjusted heterosexual would never “come out” in any way shape or form)
Some forum members like myself may point that distinction out in other places, as they should. Unfortunately, yes, some go further at the expense of charity.
There was a post about a couple of months ago saying my point in much more theologiacally informed way. If I can find it I’ll link to it. (it was by Brother JR, BTW)
Actually, to some extent, truly gay/lesbian people are by definition not in full communion with the Church. So participation or lack thereof might theoretically be even more constrained than you state. But an important point is this: it is possible to be homosexual (but not gay/lesbian) and still be in communion with the Church (and thus full participate sacramentally, etc). But again, an affirmation of and identification with the gay/lesbian culture goes beyond mere homosexuality.
This is so unfortunately true. And it is partially our fault: I am pretty sure I know of whole dioceses without a branch of Courage. We can and must do better, We must make known Archbishop’s Sheen’s maxim about the Church: there aren’t 100 people who hate the Church; there are millions who hate what they understand it to be. The Church considers homosexuals neither disordered nor outcasts. When they do feel that way, no one wins but the Evil One (or in your case, no one at all since you don’t believe in him
)
D
dskysmine
Guest
Hello everybody.
I would just like to add a few details I find interesting and maybe shed light on some matters.
In fact there are no “homosexual” models inside the Catholic Church just because the Catholic Church believes it is possible to change a person’s gender attraction.
Some one already mentioned this article from NARTH:
narth.com/docs/hope.html
Where we can see that the Catholic Church explains according to medical tests that homosexuality cannot be solely due to genetic or pre-natal conditions.
In fact I believe that even if some one is born with such characteristics a good education and nourishment can go a long way towards that person not developing as a homosexual.
Even heterosexual people can feel atracted towards people from the same sex.
I would also like to add that I have witnessed (in the television) an interview to a man that testified that he was no longer a homosexual:
davidmacd.com/catholic/personal_testimony.htm
David MacDonald’s testimony is very interesting and I think we should all read it carefully. Some people argue that he might have not been really a homosexual, but the question I ask is, if a heterosexual can have “positive” (according to homosexuals) homosexual relations why wouldn’t a homosexual be able to have “positive” heterosexual experiences?
I think that most homosexual people could have been not homosexual if they had a positive nourishment during their youth. I know personally 3 homosexual guys, one of which was a close friend for over 15 years (I’m 24) and I came across deep relationship problems between them and their family. I may be over simplifying because I’m not a psychologist, but the Catholic church works with many psychologists to establish these doctrines.
I hope this was usefull.
Take care,
Daniel
I would just like to add a few details I find interesting and maybe shed light on some matters.
In fact there are no “homosexual” models inside the Catholic Church just because the Catholic Church believes it is possible to change a person’s gender attraction.
Some one already mentioned this article from NARTH:
narth.com/docs/hope.html
Where we can see that the Catholic Church explains according to medical tests that homosexuality cannot be solely due to genetic or pre-natal conditions.
In fact I believe that even if some one is born with such characteristics a good education and nourishment can go a long way towards that person not developing as a homosexual.
Even heterosexual people can feel atracted towards people from the same sex.
I would also like to add that I have witnessed (in the television) an interview to a man that testified that he was no longer a homosexual:
davidmacd.com/catholic/personal_testimony.htm
David MacDonald’s testimony is very interesting and I think we should all read it carefully. Some people argue that he might have not been really a homosexual, but the question I ask is, if a heterosexual can have “positive” (according to homosexuals) homosexual relations why wouldn’t a homosexual be able to have “positive” heterosexual experiences?
I think that most homosexual people could have been not homosexual if they had a positive nourishment during their youth. I know personally 3 homosexual guys, one of which was a close friend for over 15 years (I’m 24) and I came across deep relationship problems between them and their family. I may be over simplifying because I’m not a psychologist, but the Catholic church works with many psychologists to establish these doctrines.
I hope this was usefull.
Take care,
Daniel
J
James_Miller
Guest
A positive role model might be Dag Hammarskjold.
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dskysmine
Guest
I have found no information about him being homosexual or ever spoken on that matter. Can you please tell us how you found out?
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