How can a sinner accept grace by his own free will?

[julianp24]

My protestant friend told me that from Romans 8:8 a sinner who is spiritually dead is not able to please God, therefore it follows that we cannot accept grace by our own free will because that would be pleasing to God and contradicts scripture. Please help, thanks!

 

[WoundedIcon]

Seems to me that he doesn’t understand that Catholicism teaches that it takes prevenient grace for us to be able to convert. God has to give us all the grace to do it. Now he seems to think that means that no one actually has free will when it comes to converting (Calvinist, right?) That’s not the only option. God can also give grace to everyone equally that gives them the ability to do it, even if they don’t follow through on it.

 

[Bakmoon]

Tell them to read the whole of chapter eight and see how in context, it isn’t talking about accepting grace, but rather about God’s anger at sin. It doesn’t say anything about accepting grace at all in verse 8.

 

[Sirach2]

God preserve us from well-meaning, but totally uninformed advice from nonCatholics.

Your profile says you are Catholic, but I don’t know how much catechesis you have received. We know that God continuously bestows “actual grace” upon all of His children, moving them to do good and avoid evil. This is not the same as “sanctifying grace” that we receive through the sacraments, but nonetheless, these helps are always present to us through our conscience — EVEN when we have sinned. God then moves us to repent and return to Him. How about the Prodigal Son? Remind your friend about that scripture parable.

 

[Julia_Mae]

My protestant friend told me that from Romans 8:8 a sinner who is spiritually dead is not able to please God, therefore it follows that we cannot accept grace by our own free will because that would be pleasing to God and contradicts scripture. Please help, thanks!

There is no help possible. This person, I am willing to bet money, has never actually read through the letter to the Romans from start to finish, hasn’t a clue why Paul wrote it or to whom, or what he was trying to accomplish with it.

You have to start at Romans 1:1 and go through verse by verse. If you could do that with Protestants and they understood, they’d all convert.

 

[SonCatcher]

My protestant friend told me that from Romans 8:8 a sinner who is spiritually dead is not able to please God, therefore it follows that we cannot accept grace by our own free will because that would be pleasing to God and contradicts scripture. Please help, thanks!

Turn him back a few pages.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 5:8-9[/BIBLEDRB]

God didn’t wait for the sinner to be pleasing before sanctifying him. God sent His son to redeem us, first. Afterward, the person has the grace to choose whether to accept or not.

 

[julianp24]

God preserve us from well-meaning, but totally uninformed advice from nonCatholics.

Your profile says you are Catholic, but I don’t know how much catechesis you have received. We know that God continuously bestows “actual grace” upon all of His children, moving them to do good and avoid evil. This is not the same as “sanctifying grace” that we receive through the sacraments, but nonetheless, these helps are always present to us through our conscience — EVEN when we have sinned. God then moves us to repent and return to Him. How about the Prodigal Son? Remind your friend about that scripture parable.

I’ve been a Catholic for the past 22 years but only started studying the bible seriously in the last 2 years so please bear with me for my lack of understanding.

I just found out about prevenient grace thanks to WoundedIcon, so I’m guessing that comes before actual grace and sanctifying grace? Am I right to make this statement: prevenient grace allows men to accept actual grace by his own free will even though he is still in a state of sin, and from actual grace comes sanctifying grace? Is grace divided into 3 parts in that sense?

 

[WoundedIcon]

Prevenient grace is probably a sort of perpetual actual grace acting on humanity. Sanctifying grace comes (or is increased) when a person responds to prevenient/actual grace and receives sacraments or does good works. And in the end, grace is God Himself. So basically we’re really just talking about different ways he works.

 

[Sirach2]

Hello, Julian – thanks for opening up and helping us to know you better.

I see what Wounded Icon meant by prevenient grace, and that it seems to be what I was calling actual grace, in the sense that it goes before us and causes us to turn to God. If we respond to His knocking at our heart, repent of our sins through a worthy confession, and receive the Eucharist, we could say that it was prevenient (or actual) grace urging us to enter into “sanctifying” grace through these sacraments. I sure hope we aren’t confusing you.

Actually, the old Baltimore Catechism No. 3 says it so simply that maybe it will refresh your memory somewhat.

Q. 459. How many kinds of grace are there?
A. There are two kinds of grace, sanctifying grace and actual grace.

Q. 460. What is the difference between sanctifying grace and actual grace?
A. Sanctifying grace remains with us as long as we are not guilty of mortal sin; and hence, it is often called habitual grace; but actual grace comes to us only when we need its help in doing or avoiding an action, and it remains with us only while we are doing or avoiding the action.

Q. 461. What is sanctifying grace?
A. Sanctifying grace is that grace which makes the soul holy and pleasing to God.

God bless you!

 

[po18guy]

My protestant friend told me that from Romans 8:8 a sinner who is spiritually dead is not able to please God, therefore it follows that we cannot accept grace by our own free will because that would be pleasing to God and contradicts scripture. Please help, thanks!

The prodigal son.

 

[PJM]

=julianp24;9705051]My protestant friend told me that from Romans 8:8 a sinner who is spiritually dead is not able to please God, therefore it follows that we cannot accept grace by our own free will because that would be pleasing to God and contradicts scripture. Please help, thanks!

Actually NOT

While sin demiishes the flow of Grace it does NOT prohibit God from OFFERING grace to all EVEN serious mortal sinners.

CCC #1848 As St. Paul affirms, “Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.”[Romans 5:20] But to do its work grace must uncover sin so as to convert our hearts and bestow on us “righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Like a physician who probes the wound before treating it, God, by his Word and by his Spirit, casts a living light on sin:

Conversion requires convincing of sin; it includes the interior judgment of conscience, and this, being a proof of the action of the Spirit of truth in man’s inmost being, becomes at the same time the start of a new grant of grace and love: “Receive the Holy Spirit.” Thus in this “convincing concerning sin” we discover a double gift: the gift of the truth of conscience and the gift of the certainty of redemption. The Spirit of truth is the Consoler.

It is grace offered and accepted that leads one to CONSIDER making a good and complete confession; WHICH BY THE WAY ONLY CATHOLICS CAN DO; EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE ONLY WAY SINS ARE NORMALLY FORGIVEN ACCORDING TO JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

John.20 Verses 19 to 23

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples [Apostles]were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. ***As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ***[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. [HERE JESUS IS HANDING ON HIS GOLDY POWERS TO THE APOSTLES AND THROUGH THEM HIS CC] [23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

The language is precise,singular in intent, clear and easy to understand.

Of note: God also in a lesser role used priesr in the Old Testament for this identical purpose:

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

Simply being able “to read the words” IS NO GUARENTEE OF RIGHT UNDERSTANDING.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[julianp24]

Thank you so much everyone!
May God bless all of you ~

 

[AdesteFideles]

So far in this thread we have general assertions regarding Catholic theology, quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, quotes from the Baltimore Catechism, citations of John, citations of Leviticus, citations from chapter 5 of Romans, a random and not expanded upon reference to the Prodigal Son, and a smattering of ironic comments about Protestants in general.

But will someone please actually answer the OP’s question by attempting serious and meaningful exegesis of the text in question, instead of running here, there, and everywhere? I’d personally be much obliged, as this is something I also have trouble with.

In other words: those who disagree with the assertion of the OP, will you please prove from the text that such exegesis upon which the original assertion is based, is utterly erroneous? It would be nice if someone could do this without throwing a bunch of red herrings at the problem, and if we could stay in this chapter to do so, that would be absolutely delicious.

Could we get serious about serious objections, please? This surface-level stuff rings so hollow. Moreover, what if a friend of yours who happens to be Protestant were to ask you this very question, and walk with you through Romans 8? What would you say? Ah, but that cannot be true, because Rome says something different. And since we’re the Church of Rome, we know everything much better than what you think you’re reading. I’m sorry, but if your friend buys that line of argumentation—and that is what has been pursued thus far—then I would be shocked to think they don’t practically beg others to tell them what they should believe.

 

[AdesteFideles]

Tell them to read the whole of chapter eight and see how in context, it isn’t talking about accepting grace, but rather about God’s anger at sin. It doesn’t say anything about accepting grace at all in verse 8.

Instead of making assertions, would you please demonstrate your exegetical arguments?

I would like to challenge you to show us where, in chapter 8 of Romans, in the so-called context of this section of Scripture, Paul writes about God’s anger at sin. I’ll quote the pertinent verses for your ease of access.

[14]*For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. [15]*For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. [16]*Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. [17]*So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. [18]*For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. [19]*For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. [20]*Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
[21]*So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. [22]*For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, [23]*but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. [24]*Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [25]*Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

(Romans 7:14-25 ESV)

[Life in the Spirit]
[8:1]*There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [2]*For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. [3]*For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4]*in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [5]*For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. [6]*For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. [7]*For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. [8]*Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9]*You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [10]*But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11]*If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

(Romans 8:1-11 ESV)

 

[Sirach2]

In other words: those who disagree with the assertion of the OP, will you please prove from the text that such exegesis upon which the original assertion is based, is utterly erroneous?

The text is obscure, in itself, and subject to the protestant friend’s interpretation, as he had been taught by HIS denomination. Verse 8 says, “And they who are carnal cannot please God.”

One can read a whole lot of jargon into this and form their own religious belief if they do not apply ALL of scripture’s teachings in context. THAT is what others have tried to do in sharing their replies, which you are having a problem with, Adeste. It is true that a carnal person living by the flesh does not please God. BUT, it is also true that Jesus seeks out the lost sheep, and teaches that it is the sick who need the Physician rather than the healthy.

We cannot trust that anyone in verse 8 is doomed forever to hell-fire, but can CHOOSE to return to the bosom of the Father through repentence which is taught in John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Every protestant evangelist quotes this verse so often that we should have it memorized by heart.

If the OP did not find these answers helpful, he would have said so.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Could we get serious about serious objections, please?

Some of us have been doing this online for twenty years. Seriously. Know how tired we are of writing volumes to the deaf? They take a sentence out of context, rarely if ever have read the Gospels, have no idea what Jesus said, and don’t care to hear. If they are mid-Acts dispensationalists, they dismiss everything Jesus said as being meant only for the Jews and only care what is in the post Gospel writings, of which they have read almost nothing.

I was quite serious when I said you can’t refute them. Waste of time.

You want a serious answer? You’d have to do this: theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75301