How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?

[AttendeDomine]

Because God cuts off from Himself anything that is not Himself, and anyone who is saved is saved only through sanctifying grace, which is a created participation in the Divine nature, and is the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity.

 

[AttendeDomine]

Accepting that there was an “Adam and Eve” that committed Original Sin, why would we be punished for this with the threat of hell? If God’s error and/or the free will of Adam and Even allowed them to commit Original Sin, isn’t this God’s/Adam and Eve’s fault, rather than yours and mine, who had no say in the matter? Doesn’t this seem to violate the Biblical precept of not visiting the sins of the father upon on the son?

Through their fall, Adam and Eve* lost the ability to transmit sanctifying grace to their offspring. * Not being born in a state of sanctifying grace is what we primarily mean by the term Original Sin. We are not punished with “threats,” we are simply born to a shattered nature, transmitted to us from parent-to-child since Adam, which is a consequence of not being born in a state of grace.

Not existing in a state of grace makes it impossible for God to be pleased with us, since we are unable to participate in His nature. This in turn leads to being cut off from Him, as I alluded to above.

We are each of us born with a dependence on our parents, and, if our parents refuse to do what is right, we suffer consequences. Look at the famous Genie case as an excellent example of this obvious principle in life.

God does not create each of us out of nothing, but rather, we are born into a culture and into a society and into a family, and we require these elements in order to thrive.

So it is in the spiritual life, and this goes all the way back to our FIRST parents. It is the same principle at work.

I would recommend very strongly that you take some time and listen to these lectures, especially lecture 2, Original Justice and Original Sin.

 

[sanchoquijote]

Accepting that it was their fault rather than yours and mine, who had no say in the matter?
Then who’s fault is it that you and I are sinners today & did we have a say in those matters?

Just curious.
:tiphat:

I’m not denying that because of free will we’re accountable for our sins. My question was why would a just, loving God punish us for those finite sins with something so infinite (and therefore, disproportionate) as hell.

 

[sanchoquijote]

Because God cuts off from Himself anything that is not Himself, and anyone who is saved is saved only through sanctifying grace, which is a created participation in the Divine nature, and is the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity.

Why would an omnipotent God need to “cut himself off” from us, why would an all-loving God want to, and why would that “cutting off” need to be something as horrible as hell as opposed to, say, temporary purgatory or simply death?

 

[sanchoquijote]

I’m going through this same anguish about the existence of Hell. I’ve troubled with it for years. In the past, every time I brought it up to other Christians, I was just short of being ostracized. I pray everyday that the Lord help me understand. My nature driven thoughts are: “How can a child (us) really love his parent (God) if the parent has a gun (hell) pointed at us saying Love me with your whole heart.”
“Do I have more mercy than God because I would never sentence my son or daughter to Hell if he or she turned their back on me?” Then I tell myself that God has infinitely more mercy than I.
“If God knows the end from the beginning, why did he make man if 75 – 90 percent (rough speculation) would be damned to eternal suffering.”

“The Bible says narrow is the gate, few make it” – Why does the Devil get the lion’s share of souls after the great and final sacrifice Jesus made. It seams like the Devil wins if you look at it like that.”

Bear in mind, I am afraid of these thoughts and ask Jesus to rid me of them. But they plague me.

Please pray for me!

Al

Thanks for your comment. Yes, I’ll be glad to pray for you.

And yes, it would seem that God could simply not permit even of us to suffer this fate, but the more common it may be, the more it calls into question the ultimate effects of the crucifixion.

 

[AttendeDomine]

But how can anyone truly choose hell, something that is completely beyond human comprehension?

One does not have to directly choose Hell, so much as one has to directly choose to reject God. Going to Hell is a rejection of God and a refusal to participate in His divine nature, i.e., enter a state of sanctifying grace.

Now, do people reject God with sufficient knowledge? Of course they do, unless I myself am the only human being who ever lived who did such a thing.

For years, I was an atheist, an OBSESSED atheist, who also happened to dabble in the occult, considering such things to be simply a natural law in the universe. Without doubt or question I can tell you that, in my atheism and in the various arguments I had against God, I absolutely nonetheless suspected that He might just be real, and that I was simply rejecting Him because I had a preference for something else.

I can also tell you that I had a strong attraction to things that I would have then considered to simply be dark archetypes: so-called demons and so-called Hell. I considered those things to simply be a sort of balancing force in the universe, very mysterious though they might be, and I welcomed them with open arms.

Now, had I died in this state, would I have chosen to reject God, even chosen my perverted understanding of what Hell is? I absolutely would have.

Again, I’m just being honest here, and I really, really, REALLY doubt I’m the only human being on the face of the earth who ever thought in this manner, and so I don’t buy these bald assertion that “no one would choose Hell or to reject God.”

Don’t forget that, in order to have knowledge of our rejection of God, we don’t have to have an absolutely infallible understanding of what we’re doing, and God doesn’t set the bar so high that only the most brilliant Ph.D.s in moral theology can actually commit mortal sin “with full knowledge.” What we need to have sufficient knowledge in order to make a free human choice, and I think that that can apply to far more people than you seem willing to concede.

 

[AttendeDomine]

Why would an omnipotent God need to “cut himself off” from us, why would an all-loving God want to, and why would that “cutting off” need to be something as horrible as hell as opposed to, say, temporary purgatory or simply death?

The objection continues: But, if what religion tells us is true, then divine justice demands the annihilation of the sinner, whose ingratitude cancels the benefit of existence.

Divine revelation alone can enlighten us here. Revelation says, not that the damned are to be annihilated, but that they are to be punished eternally. God could of course annihilate, but He does not. What He created, He also preserves. He raises the body to life. Further, if every mortal sin were punished by annihilation, all sins would be equally punished. St. Thomas says: “He that sins against God who gives him existence merits indeed to lose that existence. Nevertheless, if we consider the disorder, more or less grave, of the fault committed, and then the affliction due to it, we find that the proper punishment is not the loss of existence, because this is presupposed for merit or demerit, and therefore is not to be corrupted by the disorder of sin.” [241]

Let us listen to these admirable words of Father Lacordaire: “The obstinate sinner wishes his own annihilation, because annihilation would deliver him from God, the just judge. God would be thus constrained to undo what He has done, and that which He has made to last forever. The universe is not meant to perish. Shall, then, a soul perish simply because it does not wish to acknowledge God? No. A soul, the most precious work of the Creator, will live on forever. You can soil that soul, but you cannot destroy it. God, whose justice you have challenged, turns even lost souls into images of His law, into heralds of His justice.” [242]

You can read more here, and I would encourage you to read all seven chapters in the section on Hell from this book, or, at minimum, this one. You can find its table of contents here.

I think that all of your questions can be best answered simply by this:

If mercy were not mingled with justice, the damned would suffer still more.

The problem is that we absolutely underestimate sin, along with the infinite goodness it offends, as well as an understanding of what justice truly entails. Issues about God’s omnipotence or His love, frankly, are red herrings in this issue.

 

[ericc]

I’m not denying that because of free will we’re accountable for our sins. My question was why would a just, loving God punish us for those finite sins with something so infinite (and therefore, disproportionate) as hell.

1. Because the sin is not temporary that can be compensated. You stole someone else money, you can make good. You murder, rape, cheat, lie , you can not undo the damage.
2. You sin against your neighbour and God. The sin is towards an eternal God.
3. The biggest thing is this: the sinner did not repent. The unrepentance was infinite. Stalin did not repent, no remorse, defiant to God to the very end. To those who don’t seek forgiveness, none shall be given. God will respect your free will , your free choices. The sinner will respect His rules. His punishment is clearly stated, his teachings are clear, do this, don’t do that. The punishment is not a surprise. There is no one in hell that is surprised at being there. There are also not surprised at the type of companions there too.
4. The loving God is also a Just God. And merciful God too. Have you ever heard of the Devil complaining his punishment is not fair?
5. Why do you think the punishment should be limited, if you do not seek repentance, do not feel remorse for the evil one has done and do not seek to turn over a new leaf? Just because a punishment is unpleasant?
6. Finally what prompt you to think that Love should trump/override Justice? Don’t you believe that God is just and the punishment will commensurate with the sins after tempered with His Mercy? All the qualities of God are reflected, not cherry-picked.

 

[truetofaith]

I know this is a common question, but I continue to struggle with this.

Hell is unbearable. God is all-loving, and therefore cannot want this for anyone.

Our life is ephemeral, yet hell is eternal. God is just, and therefore no one could commit sufficient evil in this world to deserve eternal punishment in the next.

Could a just God allow anyone to be born into this world with a chance that they will commit acts that will condemn them to hell? Moreover, Jesus indicates in the Bible that condemnation to hell is actually pretty common, which is that much harder to reconcile with the image of a just, loving God. Would it be just or loving for God to expose any of us to this risk?

Thanks for your consideration.

Mike

You say, “Hell is unbearable.”

So what’s your problem? Love God, your neighbor, follow the 10 commandments…when you sin, go to confession and you won’t go to hell.

 

[truetofaith]

Accepting that there was an “Adam and Eve” that committed Original Sin, why would we be punished for this with the threat of hell? If God’s error and/or the free will of Adam and Even allowed them to commit Original Sin, isn’t this God’s/Adam and Eve’s fault, rather than yours and mine, who had no say in the matter? Doesn’t this seem to violate the Biblical precept of not visiting the sins of the father upon on the son?

I was taught that Adam & Eve knew whatever they did would affect all of mankind. So, we can’t be cry babies and say it’s their fault, not ours.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m not denying that because of free will we’re accountable for our sins. My question was why would a just, loving God punish us for those finite sins with something so infinite (and therefore, disproportionate) as hell.

When we sin, we sin against the eternal God. Eternal consequences for an offense against an eternal Being are not disproportionate. They are exactly proportionate. It is our salvation and God’s mercy that is disproportionate. We sin against an eternal God and create an eternal gulf that we could never cross on our own. Jesus comes and bridges that gap for us.

I think it’s great that you have such a love for souls that you don’t want to see anyone in hell. That’s how God feels, too. But free will necessitates that hell exists. Going with your parent-child analogy, what happens when the child grows up and doesn’t want anything to do with his or her parents? They reject all that the parents have taught them. They don’t even want to speak with the parents anymore let alone be in their presence. What are the parents to do? Hunt the wayward child down and drag them home kicking and screaming? Strap them to a chair for the rest of their life even though they clearly do not want to be there?

God does everything possible and necessary to save us. But he won’t strap us down in heaven against our will. That is coercion, not love. Love must be free.

 

[Peebo]

I remember as a Pentecostal there was the belief that when Christ returns there will be a period of peace for 1000 years…and then Satan will be released to deceive as many souls as he can…it’s in Rev 20…maybe there is someone here who can explain this…it just seems strange that Satan will be able to “double dip” even after Jesus returns…

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Through their fall, Adam and Eve* lost the ability to transmit sanctifying grace to their offspring. * Not being born in a state of sanctifying grace is what we primarily mean by the term Original Sin. We are not punished with “threats,” we are simply born to a shattered nature, transmitted to us from parent-to-child since Adam, which is a consequence of not being born in a state of grace.

…

Thank you.

 

[steve_b]

According to the Catechism, Hell indeed exists (CCC 1033-1037). While Hell is for those who reject God and what he offers, whether or not anyone actually is in Hell is a matter of debate, for the reasons you stated. Hell’s existence is not up for questioning. But whether or not there are souls truly dwelling in it is unknown, and we cannot presume to know who is damned for certain.

(If I’m incorrect, please, someone correct me.)

It’s assumed there are people in hell or hell wouldn’t have been created. Nor would Jesus scare us needlessly with hell, if it wasn’t possible to go there. (the rich man and Lazarus)

Jesus taught more on hell than anyone. The NT lists in various places the consequence for those sins mentioned, that if one dies in them they will not inherit the kingdom of God, i.e. they go to hell. THAT is the definition of a mortal sin

• Titus 3:10-11 Reject a factious (αἱρετικὸν )man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5:3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:23-27 missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12:16-17 immoraliy,(πόρνος ) is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ), factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers ( διχοστασίαι )don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 no sexually immoral (πόρνοι ), nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ( ἀρσενοκοῖται ), 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• 2 Peter 2:4-22
• 2 Thes 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

The Church doesn’t name names of those in hell, but it is presumed just the same, hell has pleanty of souls in it and many more added daily.

All the sins mentioned in scripture (particularly the sexual ones) with that heavy consequence of hell attached to it if one dies in that sin, are a cinch to commit.

 

[DavidFilmer]

According to the Catechism, Hell indeed exists (CCC 1033-1037). While Hell is for those who reject God and what he offers, whether or not anyone actually is in Hell is a matter of debate, for the reasons you stated. Hell’s existence is not up for questioning. But whether or not there are souls truly dwelling in it is unknown, and we cannot presume to know who is damned for certain.

(If I’m incorrect, please, someone correct me.)

You are not incorrect. Any Catholic is free to speculate that hell exists but is empty (at least of human souls).

God does not condemn ANYONE to hell. We do that ourselves. If there are souls in hell, they are there because that’s what they CHOSE. Nobody will ever be dragged into hell kicking and screaming that there has been some mistake.

Everyone in hell (if anyone is in hell) are (is?) there because that’s where they WANT to be. From the Catechism (emphasis mine):

CCC 1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”[sup]612[/sup] Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.[sup]613[/sup] To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
__________612 1 Jn 3:14-15.
613 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.

 

[steve_b]

But how can anyone truly choose hell, something that is completely beyond human comprehension? For an all-loving God to condemn people to hell because they “choose” it seems like a parent letting their child get hit by a car because they “chose” to play in the street.

Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:19](1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians+6:19&version=RSVCE) ]. When we sin, we sin against God who is eternal. Therefore because sin has that eternal componant to it, if our sin is a grave offense, (mortal sin) that also has an eternal consequence / punishment to it as well. And we are given a heads up in scripture, don’t die in mortal sin or the consequence is hell. #32
s:

No one rational person could possibly “choose” unbearable suffering for all eternity, which leaves one of these possibilities:

1. God allows irrational people to go to hell, and therefore is not all-loving or all-just (at least insofar as our limited human minds can perceive it).
2. Hell is somehow something that some people might truly prefer to heaven, but this would seem to go against the very concept of hell.
3. Hell does not exist.

Mike

Look at any of these sins mentioned. #32

Now think about this quote

Dt 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life,

Ask yourself, What fool needs to be told to choose blessings and life NOT death and curses? Yet look how many choose to commit those sins mentioned in that link…knowing the consequences if they die in that sin is hell (death and curses).

Yes people choose wrongly, and the consequences can be horrible

 

[steve_b]

You are not incorrect. Any Catholic is free to speculate that hell exists but is empty (at least of human souls).

Give the quote from a reputable source, properly referenced that the Church speculates hell is empty or that Catholics are free to speculate hell is empty;

Here’s the CCC on hell

God does not condemn ANYONE to hell. We do that ourselves.

If we did our own condemning, and our own judgement, (which we don’t do) there would be no need for judgement, neither particular or final judgement by God which He does.
D:

If there are souls in hell, they are there because that’s what they CHOSE. Nobody will ever be dragged into hell kicking and screaming that there has been some mistake.

Oh really!!!

When Jesus talked about judgement, did people form their own lines as to where they wanted to go…heaven or hell? No.

When those who were judged and put on the left, … for hell, did they want to be in that line? No. Did they say oh goody, we are going to hell where we’ve always wanted to go? HARDLY!!! Note, they immediately complained. Matthew 25:31-46 i.e. they didn’t want to go to hell

Think also of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man wanted out of his condition. He didn’t want to be there.

That’s what happens for those who ignore the poor, the same happens for those who also sin mortally in other areas of their life and die in that sin #32
D:

Everyone in hell (if anyone is in hell) are (is?) there because that’s where they WANT to be. From the Catechism (emphasis mine):

Jesus doesn’t say hell is empty

 

[eddie_too]

being God’s creature, I am not sure how I justify going around questioning His knowledge, love and mercy; especially after He left heaven and came in to this vale of tears for my salvation.

from a different perspective, if allowing some humans to choose hell was the price for my receiving eternal life, I am totally in favor of it.

from a third perspective, what would have to happen at our judgment before God to reverse a soul’s free choice?

from a fourth perspective, I love this creation and cannot imagine wanting it to be different. I am totally ok with God’s will in this matter because I know that no one is in hell that deserves to be somewhere else.

 

[truetofaith]

Give the quote from a reputable source, properly referenced that the Church speculates hell is empty or that Catholics are free to speculate hell is empty;

Here’s the CCC on hell

If we did our own condemning, and our own judgement, (which we don’t do) there would be no need for judgement, neither particular or final judgement by God which He does.

Oh really!!!

When Jesus talked about judgement, did people form their own lines as to where they wanted to go…heaven or hell? No.

When those who were judged and put on the left, … for hell, did they want to be in that line? No. Did they say oh goody, we are going to hell where we’ve always wanted to go? HARDLY!!! Note, they immediately complained. Matthew 25:31-46 i.e. they didn’t want to go to hell

Think also of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man wanted out of his condition. He didn’t want to be there.

That’s what happens for those who ignore the poor, the same happens for those who also sin mortally in other areas of their life and die in that sin #32

Jesus doesn’t say hell is empty

Why don’t you understand…by saying people choose to go to hell…what is meant is that by choosing to disobey God’s Law, the person is choosing their destination…hell!

 

[ericc]

Give the quote from a reputable source, properly referenced that the Church speculates hell is empty or that Catholics are free to speculate hell is empty;

Actually he is right. Anyone is free to speculate, whatever the contents of hell are. Just that it may not be right. But there are some things that would be correct because Christ said so. It will be unpleasant and it wouldn’t be empty. It won’t be empty because the Chief Host Satan is there and his subordinates welcoming all those coming on board.