How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by believers
You need a different bible.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

First of all you need to learn a few things about rules of grammer.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD3068 God430 said559 unto413 the serpent,5175 Because3588 thou hast done6213 this,2063 thou859 art cursed779 above all4480, 3605 cattle,929 and above every4480, 3605 beast2416 of the field;7704 upon5921 thy belly1512 shalt thou go,1980 and dust6083 shalt thou eat398 all3605 the days3117 of thy life:2416

Gen 3:15 And I will put7896 enmity342 between996 thee and the woman,802 and between996 thy seed2233 and her seed;2233 it1931 shall bruise7779 thy head,7218 and thou859 shalt bruise7779 his heel.6119

Gen 3:16 Unto413 the woman802 he said,559 I will greatly7235 multiply7235 thy sorrow6093 and thy conception;2032 in sorrow6089 thou shalt bring forth3205 children;1121 and thy desire8669 shall be to413 thy husband,376 and he1931 shall rule4910 over thee.

God is addressing the Serpent in verse 14. In verse 15 the subject is about the woman and the serpent.

This word “It” in the KJV and the “She” in the Catholic Bibles(The Latin version has “She” in the Latin form).

H1931
היא הוּא
hû’ hîy’
hoo, he
The second form is the feminine beyond the Pentateuch; a primitive word, the third person pronoun singular, he (she or it); only expressed when emphatic or without a verb; also (intensively) self, or (especially with the article) the same; sometimes (as demonstrative) this or that; occasionally (instead of copula) as or are: - he, as for her, him (-self), it, the same, she (herself), such, that (. . . it), these, they, this, those, which (is), who.

When Satan was guiding the Anti-Catholic translators of the KJV, he got them to use the generic IT instead of the proper SHE.

I will reiterate

Verse 14 God addresses the Serpent.
Verse 15 The subjects of the conversation is Eve and Serpent.
Verse 16 God addresses Eve
Verse 17 God finally addresses Adam.

 

[Tom317]

Scripture does not recognize where men have exalted her.

Really?

-So, when Jesus gave Mary to John as his Mother (which by extension means she is also our Mother) that is not exalting Mary by Christ? And, if Jesus raised Mary to Mother of all, then who are we to not obey?

-So, when Mary interceded with Jesus at the wedding feast of Cana, that is not to be seen as Mary holding a special place with our Lord (note: Jesus only created the wine from water “after” Mary interceded).

Are those accounts found in Scripture?

 

[apophasis]

…Greek References for “Full of Grace” found in Luke 1:28.

“Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]

“Chartoo…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena ‘full of grace’, even the translators of 1611 King James Version show there approval of this in the Margin with “Much Graced” [A Look at the Greek Scriptures, 1984, New York, Garretson Cox & Company Pg. 123 ]

“Chartoo: Grace. To Grace… as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc. Pg. 1471]

“Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitomene a perfect passive participle of the verb Chartoo (only here and Eph. 1:6)… Abbott- Smith defines Chartoo as follows endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Devine favor)” [Word Meaning in the New Testament, copyright 1986, printed by Henndrickson Publishing, edited by Ralph Earle Pg. 52]

“0 favored one (kecharitomene). angel’s address of Mary marks her out recipient of God’s special grace (BAG BDAG, 1081). For Luke, she is a model beneficiary of God’s grace (1:48). The: other use of this verb in the NT Ephesians 1:6. [charitoo]” [The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study, copyright 2002, printed Victor Publishing, edited by Darrell L. Bock, Pg. 180]

“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc., p. 966]

"Chartoo. . . kecharitomene, full of grace, Luke, i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) "[Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 208]

“Chartoo to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6”[The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 915]

“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers, Jr. Vol. 1, Pg. 140]

“endue with grace” [A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 281]

“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” " [The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The New Testament, copyright 1998, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers III , Pg. 108]

“Chartoo. . . to endue with grace… : Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6” [A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 480]

“Chartoo: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, [unabridged edition], by W. E. VINE, printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, Pg. 424]

catholicapologetics.net/grace.htm

“Grace” means “favor,” To endue with favor. To bestow with favor. Hence, highly favored. The verse states NOTHING of her being sinless. And certainly NOTHING concerning her birth. ALL this is read into that one passage.

 

[Tom317]

“Grace” means “favor,” To endue with favor. To bestow with favor. Hence, highly favored. The verse states NOTHING of her being sinless. And certainly NOTHING concerning her birth. ALL this is read into that one passage.

The proper and historical interpretation is “full of Grace,” you can see that with what I posted. To be full of grace is to be completely sinfree, just as Jesus was full of Grace (see John 1:14). You can deny the truth, yet denial never changes truth.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by apophasis
“Grace” means “favor,” To endue with favor. To bestow with favor. Hence, highly favored. The verse states NOTHING of her being sinless. And certainly NOTHING concerning her birth. ALL this is read into that one passage.

Greek Dictionary:

caritow,v {khar-ee-to’-o}

1. to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

None of which are “Highly Favoured”

And Strongs?

G5487
χαριτόω
charitoō
khar-ee-to’-o
From G5485; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.

Highly favoured is the last definition, not the Primary.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by apophasis
“Grace” means “favor,” To endue with favor. To bestow with favor. Hence, highly favored. The verse states NOTHING of her being sinless. And certainly NOTHING concerning her birth. ALL this is read into that one passage.

Yes the word Kecharitomeme reads all that into it.

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea2.asp

bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm

 

[tundramom]

I know for a fact that babies in the womb cannot commit any actual sin. They lack the means to reason, they don’t know God. They have no concept of the Ten Commandments.

Babies are taught by their parents, and as they grow, they gain knowledge, and by the age of 8, they will know right from wrong, and will know what sin is.

Sin is any violation of God’s Commandments. I’m trying to understand if Syele believe babies can sin. Apparent base on her post she does. Correct if I am wrong if her posts were mis-read.

Mannyfit,
Are you Mormon? How did you come to the “age of 8”?
We are told in scripture that God’s law is written on our hearts. Are you then saying that a baby has no heart? We instinctively know good from evil because God formed us that way… written it on our hearts. We don’t need to be told it’s wrong, we KNOW it’s wrong. The selfish-ness of a toddler is proof of that fact. They will reach for something, see if anyone is looking before they take it. Without being told.

in Christ
Steph

 

[mrs_abbott]

And how would God remain just by simply “erasing” her of sin? Sins can never be simply “erased” away, but washed away by blood - His blood.

But God is God and capable of doing ANYTHING!!! **Are you trying to limit God’s power???**I believe it’s possible for Mary to have sinned during her life but at the moment the angel appeared to her and asked her if she would bear Jesus in her womb and she said yes, then her sins were erased to that point. She very well could have sinned after she gave birth to Jesus but I believe that God protected her from sin while she was carrying His Son.

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

Greek Dictionary:

caritow,v {khar-ee-to’-o}

1. to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

None of which are “Highly Favoured”

And Strongs?

G5487
χαριτόω
charitoō
khar-ee-to’-o
From G5485; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.

Highly favoured is the last definition, not the Primary.

Tom317:

The proper and historical interpretation is “full of Grace,” you can see that with what I posted. To be full of grace is to be completely sinfree, just as Jesus was full of Grace (see John 1:14). You can deny the truth, yet denial never changes truth.

This word is used in only one other place in the NT, and that is in Eph 1:6 of all believers; therefore, according to the reasoning of your argument, all believers must be sinless as well; do you believe that?

 

[Tom317]

But God is God and capable of doing ANYTHING!!! **Are you trying to limit God’s power???**I believe it’s possible for Mary to have sinned during her life but at the moment the angel appeared to her and asked her if she would bear Jesus in her womb and she said yes, then her sins were erased to that point. She very well could have sinned after she gave birth to Jesus but I believe that God protected her from sin while she was carrying His Son.

One cannot be a faithful Catholic and believe that Mary sinned…it is just that simple.

 

[mrs_abbott]

One cannot be a faithful Catholic and believe that Mary sinned…it is just that simple.

I said I believe it’s possible. Whether or not Mary sinned is insignificant. It’s not taught specifically in the Bible or anywhere else for that matter. All it says is that she was “full of grace”, and Catholics believe that the greek translation of that means she was sinless.
Me, personally, I’m not sure if she was or wasn’t. *It is just that simple. *

 

[Tom317]

I said I believe it’s possible. Whether or not Mary sinned is insignificant. It’s not taught specifically in the Bible or anywhere else for that matter. All it says is that she was “full of grace”, and Catholics believe that the greek translation of that means she was sinless.
Me, personally, I’m not sure if she was or wasn’t. *It is just that simple. *

Then your is NOT a Catholic belief.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Then your is NOT a Catholic belief.

:nope: I never said it was. Are you trying to start an argument or something?

 

[Tom317]

:nope: I never said it was. Are you trying to start an argument or something?

No, it is just annoying to see Catholics express views that are completely contrary to the Catholic faith and yet still call themselves Catholic. A person really cannot have it both ways, they are either authentically Catholic, or they are something else.

 

[JoeyWarren]

This word is used in only one other place in the NT, and that is in Eph 1:6 of all believers; therefore, according to the reasoning of your argument, all believers must be sinless as well; do you believe that?

Again the context of the Greek has to be examined. Actually It is not used at all in it’s root form. That is where E-Sword misleads people.

Luke 1:28 καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν, Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.

clarity: ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ

Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175)

Eph 1:6 εἰς ἔπαινον δόξης τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ,

clarity: ΕΙΣ ΕΠΑΙΝΟΝ ΔΟΞΗΣ ΤΗΣ ΧΑΡΙΤΟΣ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΗΣ **ΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΣΕΝ **ΗΜΑΣ ΕΝ ΤΩ ΗΓΑΠΗΜΕΝΩ

Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166).

Any Questions?

 

[JoeyWarren]

I said I believe it’s possible. Whether or not Mary sinned is insignificant. It’s not taught specifically in the Bible or anywhere else for that matter. All it says is that she was “full of grace”, and Catholics believe that the greek translation of that means she was sinless.
Me, personally, I’m not sure if she was or wasn’t. *It is just that simple. *

I believe mrs_abbott is saying that the issue is not hyper-critical to average run of the mill catholic. It never was critical to me and still is not. The Mass and it’s contents are what is truely critical. Everything else is just a scapegoat for Protestants IMHO to not consider the Catholic Church.

 

[Tom317]

I believe mrs_abbott is saying that the issue is not hyper-critical to average run of the mill catholic. It never was critical to me and still is not. The Mass and it’s contents are what is truely critical. Everything else is just a scapegoat for Protestants IMHO to not consider the Catholic Church.

I disagree. Statements that the Church has made about Mary are very important to many teachings of the faith, many of which are infallible teachings. If the Church is proved to be wrong in even ONE infallible teaching, then all of Christianity falls apart. I would say that makes it fairly important.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I believe mrs_abbott is saying that the issue is not hyper-critical to average run of the mill catholic. It never was critical to me and still is not. The Mass and it’s contents are what is truely critical. Everything else is just a scapegoat for Protestants IMHO to not consider the Catholic Church.

Exactly! Thanks JoeyWarren!
The Eucharist is the heart of Catholicism and what makes it stand out from any other denomination.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I disagree. Statements that the Church has made about Mary are very important to many teachings of the faith, many of which are infallible teachings. If the Church is proved to be wrong in even ONE infallible teaching, then all of Christianity falls apart. I would say that makes it fairly important.

Do you think that believing whether or not Mary was sinless is necessary for you to believe to get to Heaven?

 

[Tom317]

Exactly! Thanks JoeyWarren!
The Eucharist is the heart of Catholicism and what makes it stand out from any other denomination.

The Eucharist is Christ, so yes it does make the Catholic faith stand out above everything else in entire world. Yet, the Catholic faith is not ONLY about the Eucharist.