How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

[Orionthehunter]

Hi,
Real quick doesnt the CC teach that if a baby dies before they are baptized they will go to hell? All of my catholic friends have told me this. They say that is the reason why they should or have to get baptized immediately after birth or within a few weeks anyway.

Real quick . The Church teaches in the Catechism #1261:

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children, which caused him to say, ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them’ [Mark 10:14, cf. 1 Tim. 2:4], allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism.

In effect, the Church has determined that the Scripture is unclear on whether they go to Heaven as the primary audience of Scripture is for people who have reached the age of reason. Additionally, because the Scripture is more clear that Baptism makes one a child of God and removes the stain of Original Sin, the Church has determined that baptized babies who have not sinned will go to Heaven.

However, while some early theologians theorized that unbaptized babies may go to Hell (due to the lack of clarity of Scripture), the Church has never taught that unbaptized babies will go to Hell as that is for those who have consciously through sin chosen to reject God.

 

[estesbob]

Hi,
Real quick doesnt the CC teach that if a baby dies before they are baptized they will go to hell? All of my catholic friends have told me this. They say that is the reason why they should or have to get baptized immediately after birth or within a few weeks anyway.

No:

[1261](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1261.htm’) As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[estesbob]

Look it up in the Catechism, I don’t agree with it, stillborn babies going to hell etc. But thats what the Catholics believe.

Lee44

No its not.

 

[VociMike]

How do you know it wasn’t the understanding intended by God.

Not by my own powers of scriptural interpretation, certainly. I know it because the Church teaches it and has always taught it.

I don’t think those verses were written with stillborn babies as the audience.

But it doesn’t say “all those who read this letter have sinned”. It simply says “all have sinned”.

Psalm 51:5

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The way an infant sins is that they were born that way. The verses are literal and they include Origional sin.

Ah, so now “all have sinned” does not actually mean “all have sinned”?! It actually means something other than “all have sinned”. So if “have” doesn’t actually mean “have”, perhaps “all” doesn’t actually mean “all”. If “all have sinned” does not actually mean that all have committed acts of sin, then why is it not also possible that “all have sinned” does not actually mean “each and every person ever created has sinned”? Why is it OK to alter the literal meaning in the former case, but not in the latter case?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God,

This is how I believe as well.

 

[VociMike]

I’m taking it as meaning being born with original sin. Why do you think people were so upset when the Pope disproved Limbo? Isn’t that where some Catholics believed unbaptised babies go when they die?

The problem is that is not the literal understanding of “all have sinned”. Therefore, if the absolute literal meaning of the phrase is now to be rejected, why is “all” to be so stubbornly clung to?

 

[manualman]

This isn’t that hard.

Babies prior to baptism are burden with the stain of original sin, but have committed no actual sin. If they die before being baptised, Jesus didn’t explicitly tell us what would happen to them. Some have theorized a limbo. Others theorize that God would in some perfect way still judge them with perfect justice and that some or all might go to heaven.

As for scripture, read it in context. No new testament author ever wrote a letter to the unborn. Those hearing the authors are presumed to be able to understand it. “ALL” in this context would seem to apply only to those past the age of reason. And while morality is not relative, the age of reason may well vary by person and by the complexity of the moral issue.

 

[Indyann]

Look it up in the Catechism, I don’t agree with it, stillborn babies going to hell etc. But thats what the Catholics believe.

Lee44

With respect, please do not post what Catholics believe. You have no clue.

 

[mrs_abbott]

The problem is that is not the literal understanding of “all have sinned”. Therefore, if the absolute literal meaning of the phrase is now to be rejected, why is “all” to be so stubbornly clung to?

You seem to be the only one “stubbornly clinging” to that.

 

[VociMike]

This isn’t that hard.

Babies prior to baptism are burden with the stain of original sin, but have committed no actual sin. If they die before being baptised, Jesus didn’t explicitly tell us what would happen to them. Some have theorized a limbo. Others theorize that God would in some perfect way still judge them with perfect justice and that some or all might go to heaven.

I’m with you all the way so far.

As for scripture, read it in context. No new testament author ever wrote a letter to the unborn. Those hearing the authors are presumed to be able to understand it. “ALL” in this context would seem to apply only to those past the age of reason. And while morality is not relative, the age of reason may well vary by person and by the complexity of the moral issue.

But the passage does not say “all of you have sinned”. Whereas e.g. in John 6 Jesus did say “if you do not…”

So I’m not convinced by the “stillborn babies weren’t the audience” argument. It would have been quite easy to qualify, but darn it, the text still says all. None of the scriptures taken to prove that all have sinned ever qualify what they mean by “all” or “none”. All of the passages are quite absolute.

 

[VociMike]

You seem to be the only one “stubbornly clinging” to that.

Only for sake of argument, to demonstrate that those who use “all have sinned” to argue for the absolute necessity of Mary having sinned, are both demanding and rejecting the completely literal meaning of the text at the same time. And that doesn’t make sense.

 

[Syele]

Only for sake of argument, to demonstrate that those who use “all have sinned” to argue for the absolute necessity of Mary having sinned, are both demanding and rejecting the completely literal meaning of the text at the same time. And that doesn’t make sense.

It also dosn’t make sense to demand that everything be taken non-literal just because it’s hard to understand. Yes most protestants believe all have sinned, we also tend to believe in an age of accountability. You are not held accountable for sins you committed before you were old enough to understand it was sin.

Babies are intrinsically selfish. They want what they want and they want it NOW. They do not love others as themselves. Are they accountable for it? no. But is selfishness a sin? Yes.

 

[VociMike]

Babies are intrinsically selfish. They want what they want and they want it NOW. They do not love others as themselves. Are they accountable for it? no. But is selfishness a sin? Yes.

Explain to me what selfish act a baby commits in the womb.

Also, a baby in the womb acts essentially as does any animal in the womb. Are those other animals also sinning?

 

[mrs_abbott]

Explain to me what selfish act a baby commits in the womb.

Also, a baby in the womb acts essentially as does any animal in the womb. Are those other animals also sinning?

Animals do not have souls and therefore don’t sin.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Explain to me what selfish act a baby commits in the womb.

Also, a baby in the womb acts essentially as does any animal in the womb. Are those other animals also sinning?

Hi,
Your a guy right? Well you wouldnt understand then:thumbsup: LOL

 

[mrs_abbott]

Only for sake of argument, to demonstrate that those who use “all have sinned” to argue for the absolute necessity of Mary having sinned, are both demanding and rejecting the completely literal meaning of the text at the same time. And that doesn’t make sense.

Are you sure they’re not referring to original sin, in that case?

 

[VociMike]

Are you sure they’re not referring to original sin, in that case?

It doesn’t matter. If “all have sinned” might mean “all were born in original sin” then “all have sinned” might also mean “most have sinned”. Once the literal meaning of the text is rejected on any point, then “all” is not absolute.

 

[mrs_abbott]

It doesn’t matter. If “all have sinned” might mean “all were born in original sin” then “all have sinned” might also mean “most have sinned”. Once the literal meaning of the text is rejected on any point, then “all” is not absolute.

I think, in this case, the literal meaning is abandoned to include infants. Now whether or not the argument is ALWAYS viewed that way, you’ll have to see what others think.

 

[Syele]

Explain to me what selfish act a baby commits in the womb.

What do you suppose Babies DO in the womb? Unborn infants do not think any more of others and newly born ones do. Ask any woman who’s been pregnant.

 

[VociMike]

What do you suppose Babies DO in the womb? Unborn infants do not think any more of others and newly born ones do. Ask any woman who’s been pregnant.

So what does a baby do in the womb that Jesus didn’t do in the womb? Or was Jesus also a sinfully selfish fetus?