How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

[Huiou_Theou]

Apophasis,

Actually it’s not my “title,” but my “observation” while on this forum.

Nice! I was wrong – you don’t exceed your title.

How so? Every funeral home and every graveyard proves Paul’s accuracy that - “In Adam” death reigns.

It is true, that death entered the cosmos through Adam.
But, even Jesus died. It’s the corruption part that is the Reign of Death. So – I think your statement inaccurate.

….for the wages of sin (singular) is death" (Rom. 6:23);

There is in Greek as well as English the collective noun.

“The enemy shot at me” is a valid English sentence referencing the group of people known as the enemy.
It does not prove that a singular person shot at you.

The writer did not say ‘a sin’, but just sin. (collective).
The Greek may support a plural reading as well.
In Greek the collective is always feminine.

Rom 3:23 is a summary of Rom 3:10 – which is a quote of Psalms 13/14 & 52/53 The phrase “no not one” applies to the fool in these psalms. There is an innocent group in those psalms as well. Paul is only talking about the wicked group who sin like Adam at this point in Rom 3:10.

Death is the penalty that spread to ALL men because of ONE man’s sin - the Scriptures are clear.

That requires an examination of Rom 5:12 in Greek and in detail – the English translation varies.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Elijah was an anomaly, as was Enoch, as will be that generation of believers in the Body of Christ that will not “sleep” (1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:17).

Seth and Elijah and Enoch are sons of Adam.
The sons of men come from Cain.

yep, there are exceptions.

It’s poor logic, indeed, to claim that if you can’t find the remains of a body the conclusion must be that he/she did not die.

It’s poor logic to say that if all you know is that you can’t find a body, that someone has died.

Most Catholics believe Mary died and then assert that she, subsequently, “assumed” bodily into heaven.

No dogmatic definition on that one.
I have no proof of the former – eg. that she died.
she ‘may’ have is not the same as she did, BUT
She did NOT corrupt.

“…and a sword will pierce even your own soul” is parenthetical and refers to Mary’s grief before the cross. Simeon is obviously not speaking literally here since a physical sword cannot pierce an immaterial soul.

Even if I grant your interpretation, she may have died from grief – not Adam’s sin. There is nothing that says ONLY Adam’s sin brings death. I still don’t have evidence that she died.

But, the sword pierced her – not Jesus.
And if metaphorical, it need not refer to the cross:
So I read it as the personal insults hurled at her, when she is innocent. As in right now – that is why she left this world.
Those who reject Jesus, reject Her.

St. Augustine said, that when treating of original sin – he wished Mary’s name not be mentioned. He was wise.

Jesus also wrote the command to honor your father and mother.

 

[AlegreFe]

I see; so then, using that logic, none of the scripture applies to us because it was not written “to us;”

That is so illogical to think that. But in light of our conversation and in the context of the scripture of which we speak, we have to take into consideration that Paul was talking to Timothy about teaching the truth. We are not the “teachers” of the Truth as we were not given the Authority by Jesus to actually teach and interpret the Truth. If we want to “teach” as in a “Bible study” group, we must do it through the eyes and heart of the Church.

You keep harping that we could have our own private interpretations and you use this verse to explain your “theory” on private interpretation. Sorry but this verse does not say anything about you being able to have your own private interpretation. You said that this verse was “a command to understand the scripture.” A command maybe, but not for us as to use our own private interpretation. This was for Timothy so that he can be sure to handle the Word of Truth so that He can teach his disciples and they in turn can teach theirs and so on. That is called Tradition. The Word of God is not limited to just a book. The Word of God was revealed to us in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition through the Magisterium of the Church. The Church teaches us what the Word means. We just don’t arrive at our own private interpretation.

15 Carefully study to present thyself approved
unto God, a workman that needeth not to be
ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
2 Tim 2:15 (DR-V)

I do believe that the Scriptures are for us and that God speaks to us through His Word. But there are times when we have to be careful with some verses where Paul only talks to Timothy or where Jesus is only speaking to the Apostles and so on.

The verse above, I believe, is also speaking to us but not in the sense that you believe. I have to be careful to read the Word of God through the Heart of the Church and not to take on my own private interpretations, otherwise I wouldn’t be “rightly handling the word of truth.”

sandusky:

I see; so then, with what you have said to me in other posts, would I be accurate in saying that with respect to things theological your brain shuts off, and you run purely on faith? That seems to be what you are saying; is that correct?

No.

You asked me how I arrived at that interpretation and I told you, the Church’s teachings. When I read the bible I just don’t put aside the Church and what I learned from the Church. I read the bible through the eyes and heart of the Church. My brain can’t “shut off” otherwise I would not be able to take into consideration what the Church says about the Word of God. I use my brain to discern what I read online when it comes to the Faith so that I won’t be fooled by false teachings, and that is done with what I have learned from the Church. So don’t try to be funny and say that my brain shuts off.

sandusky:

AlegreFe:

How do you come to your conclusions as to what those verses mean to you?

Through prayer, meditation, and study.

What do you study?
How do you know that your interpretation is the right one?
Are you sure that it is the Holy Spirit that is instructing you?
And if that is the case, then how can there be thousands of different denominations? The Holy Spirit is not confused. The Holy Spirit does not lie.
How do you know for sure that the Holy Spirit is telling you what these verses mean?

 

[Des]

If Adam and Eve did not know good and evil, and you cannot sin unless you know it’s sin, then Adam and Eve COULD NOT sin.

They did not know sin as in feel it’s effects on their conscience because they were never tempted and fell before, however only felt this after they were by satan himself. Did they know right from wrong?.. why certainly since they both knew what not to do and even hesitated and questioned their actions, showing the effects of a conscience which a Baby does not have. They even hid from God immidiately after and I doubt you will ever find a baby hide from his/her mother for kicking her in the womb or even question his/her actions for doing so.

 

[apophasis]

It is true, that death entered the cosmos through Adam. But, even Jesus died. It’s the corruption part that is the Reign of Death. So – I think your statement inaccurate.

It’s not my statement, it’s Paul’s. Sin entered the world through the action/transgression of ONE man, the penalty being death (Gen. 2:17), death spread to ALL men. Why? Because ALL sinned (in Adam). All are born sinners in Adam, ALL die.

Rom 3:23 is a summary of Rom 3:10 – which is a quote of Psalms 13/14 & 52/53 The phrase “no not one” applies to the fool in these psalms. There is an innocent group in those psalms as well. Paul is only talking about the wicked group who sin like Adam at this point in Rom 3:10.

The context is found is Rom. 3:9, not the Psalms."What then, are we (Jews) better than they (Gentiles)? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are ALL UNDER sin (cf. Gal. 3:22)."There’s no singling out any particular people here. Paul is referring to ALL men, Jew and Gentile alike, in their natural state. There are no “innocent” in Adam - but “in Christ” ALL are justified as a gift (Rom. 3:23-24).

Seth and Elijah and Enoch are sons of Adam. The sons of men come from Cain. yep, there are exceptions.

ALL men are sons of Adam - save the Savior.

No dogmatic definition on that one. I have no proof of the former – eg. that she died. she ‘may’ have is not the same as she did, BUT
She did NOT corrupt.

Proof???

Even if I grant your interpretation, she may have died from grief – not Adam’s sin.

Not according to Paul. There are all sorts of causes for the death, but “death spread to all men because all sinned.”

There is nothing that says ONLY Adam’s sin brings death.

“For if by the transgression of the ONE, death reigned through the ONE…” (Rom. 5:17)

I still don’t have evidence that she died.

You have absolutely evidence that she didn’t.

But, the sword pierced her – not Jesus. And if metaphorical, it need not refer to the cross: So I read it as the personal insults hurled at her, when she is innocent. As in right now – that is why she left this world. Those who reject Jesus, reject Her.

St. Augustine said, that when treating of original sin – he wished Mary’s name not be mentioned. He was wise.

Jesus also wrote the command to honor your father and mother.

Pure rationalism. And the Man Jesus wrote no such command. Where in the Gospel account does Jesus claim to have written that command? The Man Jesus wrote no Scripture.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

That is so illogical to think that. But in light of our conversation and in the context of the scripture of which we speak, we have to take into consideration that Paul was talking to Timothy about teaching the truth. We are not the “teachers” of the Truth as we were not given the Authority by Jesus to actually teach and interpret the Truth. If we want to “teach” as in a “Bible study” group, we must do it through the eyes and heart of the Church.

Uh . . . wanna bet? 2 Timothy 3:12-17

AlegreFe:

You keep harping that we could have our own private interpretations and you use this verse to explain your “theory” on private interpretation. Sorry but this verse does not say anything about you being able to have your own private interpretation.

And how might you know that? Did you consult with the CC before coming to that conclusion or did you interpret that privately?

AlegreFe:

The verse above, I believe, is also speaking to us but not in the sense that you believe. I have to be careful to read the Word of God through the Heart of the Church and not to take on my own private interpretations, otherwise I wouldn’t be “rightly handling the word of truth.”

There it is again: “you believe”. Private interpretation again?

AlegreFe:

You asked me how I arrived at that interpretation and I told you, the Church’s teachings. When I read the bible I just don’t put aside the Church and what I learned from the Church. I read the bible through the eyes and heart of the Church. My brain can’t “shut off” otherwise I would not be able to take into consideration what the Church says about the Word of God. I use my brain to discern what I read online when it comes to the Faith so that I won’t be fooled by false teachings, and that is done with what I have learned from the Church. So don’t try to be funny and say that my brain shuts off.

Ok then. I promise I’m trying not to be funny but how do you read the Bible? Do you have a list of what the CC teaches laying right next to your Bible so that when you read it, you know you’re reading it as the CC would want you to? If you don’t, you are reading it just as Protestant would. I can study Catholic history and claim I am reading my Bible the way the CC wants me to, unless I have a list of CC teachings to compare it to for every verse of the Bible.

I am anxiously awaiting your reply, Sandy.

 

[sandusky]

Uh . . . wanna bet? 2 Timothy 3:12-17

And how might you know that? Did you consult with the CC before coming to that conclusion or did you interpret that privately?

There it is again: “you believe”. Private interpretation again?

Ok then. I promise I’m trying not to be funny but how do you read the Bible? Do you have a list of what the CC teaches laying right next to your Bible so that when you read it, you know you’re reading it as the CC would want you to? If you don’t, you are reading it just as Protestant would. I can study Catholic history and claim I am reading my Bible the way the CC wants me to, unless I have a list of CC teachings to compare it to for every verse of the Bible.

I am anxiously awaiting your reply, Sandy.

Eggszactly!

(I think she gets it).

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Uh . . . wanna bet? 2 Timothy 3:12-17

 

[Jerry-Jet]

No the real response is that the Catholic Church authoritatively interprets the Bible as the Holy Spirit guides it into all truth as Jesus promised it would!

 

[Blue_Serenity]

No the real response is that the Catholic Church authoritatively interprets the Bible as the Holy Spirit guides it into all truth as Jesus promised it would!

I understand how that pertains to the readings selected for Sunday Mass but how can you vouch for that in discussions that you may casually have with someone, like on these forums? How do I know that you are speaking on behalf of the CC’s authority?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Try this if you don’t believe me–call up the Pope or any bishop of the Catholic Church–who do have legitimate authority and ask them if the Catholic Church authoritatively interprets the Bible as the Holy Spirit guides it into all truth as Jesus promised it would.

If I am wrong about that have them post here.

Don’t worry–they’ll vouch that I’m vouching for what is true!

None of the Fulness of Truth comes from me–it does come from the Catholic church.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Try this if you don’t believe me–call up the Pope or any bishop of the Catholic Church–who do have legitimate authority and ask them if the Catholic Church authoritatively interprets the Bible as the Holy Spirit guides it into all truth as Jesus promised it would.

If I am wrong about that have them post here.

Don’t worry–they’ll vouch that I’m vouching for what is true!

None of the Fulness of Truth comes from me–it does come from the Catholic church.

I believe you but I just don’t see how average Catholics can know if they are interpretting the Bible how the CC would?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Because Jesus promised the disciples–not all believers that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth.

The pope and the bishops united with him are the successors to Peter and the apostles and hence they have the authority and the Holy Spirit that helps guide them into all truth.

Jesus set it up that way because He knew that there would be disagreements if everyone interpreted the best way they knew how.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Because Jesus promised the disciples–not all believers that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth.

The pope and the bishops united with him are the successors to Peter and the apostles and hence they have the authority and the Holy Spirit that helps guide them into all truth.

Jesus set it up that way because He knew that there would be disagreements if everyone interpreted the best way they knew how.

Hi,

Read Daniel 4:8–10, Daniel 4: 17–19, Daniel 5:11

Also Acts 2:1–13 and Acts 4:31 Let me know what you think

These are all examples that the power of the Holy Spirit was not limited to just the Apostles. The Apostles got to be the first in the new covenant of Christ but they were just the beginning. Not all of us have the gift of preaching, but we all have the Holy Spirit to guide us as to which preaching is true or false. I pray to God for discernment and God has answered those prayers for me. I am finding it easier to discern what is true and what is false and that is the Holy Spirit working in me.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why does the Holy Spirit tell thousands of different things to thousands of different Protestant denominations? Are all but one of those lying about what the Holy Spirit is telling them or is the Holy Spirit lying?

The Holy Spirit doesn’t lie. He guides the Catholic Church into all truth.

IF all believers were given different gifts–Paul would have had no reason to meet Peter or the other apostles.

Jesus said that the apostles would rule over the twelve tribes of Israel–He didn’t say that other people would get to do that.

He BREATHED on the disciples and gave them the power to forgive and retain sin–He didn’t breathre on His mother Mary or Mary Magdalen.

The disciples were the arbiters of what was thr true revelation of Jesus Christ and what was not and they were led by the Holy Spirit.

If you weren’t one of the 12 you didn’t have the authority to interpret anything.

Did not Peter say that some of Pauls teachings “were hard to understand”?

When they were “hard to understand” they didn’t just pray to the Holy Spirit–they asked Paul or the other disciples what exactly he meant.

And as the case at Jerusalem in Acts shows of the 12 it was Peter who exercised ultimate authority among the 12…

The Early Catholic Church respected authority–they weren’t autonomous congregations with self appointed deacons deciding what they thought was right and then shopping for a preacher who would agree with them!

 

[sandusky]

Because Jesus promised the disciples–not all believers that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth.

FYI, believers are disciples.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

FYI believers are not the 12–there’s a difference in authority–if not then prove to me how believers who are disicples and not the 12 will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[AlegreFe]

Uh . . . wanna bet? 2 Timothy 3:12-17

I see the same words but it’s obvious you don’t see the same thing that I do.

Here is Paul writing to Timothy, his successor as teacher in the Church.
12 Indeed all who desire to live a godly
life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13 while evil men and impostors will
go on from bad to worse, deceivers
and deceived.
14 But as for you, continue in what
you have learned and have firmly
believed, knowing from whom you
learned it
15 and how from childhood you have
been acquainted with the sacred
writings which are able to instruct you
for salvation through faith in Christ
Jesus.
16 All scripture is inspired by God and
profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, and for training in
righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete,
equipped for every good work.
2 Tim 3:12-17
It says that it’s profitable. It does NOT say that it’s sufficient. The Church has what is sufficient “for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness.”

The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth, not the Bible.
15 But if I should be delayed, you
should know how to behave in the
household of God, which is the
church of the living God, the pillar
and foundation of truth.
1 Tm 3:15
Blue Serenity:

And how might you know that? Did you consult with the CC before coming to that conclusion or did you interpret that privately?

I have the CCC and I also have God.
Blue Serenity:

There it is again: “you believe”. -]Private interpretation again?/-]

Of course I believe. I believe that Jesus Christ left us a Church with a Pope and Bishops. They are our shepherds here on earth. Jesus left us a Church so that we won’t be scattered like sheep without a shepherd. With so many protestant denominations I’d say that they are scattered sheep without a shepard. They are also sifted like wheat because that is what the devil wants, to sift us all like wheat. That is why I want to be included in Jesus’ prayer for Peter.

31 “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has
demanded to sift all of you like wheat,
32 but I have prayed that your own
faith may not fail; and once you have
turned back, you must strengthen
your brothers.” Lk 22:31-32
Blue Serenity:

Ok then. I promise I’m trying not to be funny but how do you read the Bible? Do you have a list of what the CC teaches laying right next to your Bible so that when you read it, you know you’re reading it as the CC would want you to? If you don’t, you are reading it just as Protestant would. I can study Catholic history and claim I am reading my Bible the way the CC wants me to, unless I have a list of CC teachings to compare it to for every verse of the Bible.

You call it a list, I call it the CCC and it looks like this. ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1574551094.01.BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ.jpg

 

[AlegreFe]

Eggszactly!
(I think she gets it).

(emphasis added)

What is it that you think I get?

 

[AlegreFe]

No the real response is that the Catholic Church authoritatively interprets the Bible as the Holy Spirit guides it into all truth as Jesus promised it would!

Jesus promised and Jesus keeps His promises.

 

[AlegreFe]

I understand how that pertains to the readings selected for Sunday Mass but how can you vouch for that in discussions that you may casually have with someone, like on these forums? How do I know that you are speaking on behalf of the CC’s authority?

Why don’t you get yourself a copy of the CCC. It’s a huge book so if you really want to read it we would miss you here. So if you want to read it, we’ll see you in a few weeks.
Or if you want a smaller read, here is the Compendium of the CCC. It is in the form of Q & A.