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mrs_abbott
Guest
Never said that. Maybe you should read the ENTIRE discussion before posting.
You seem to randomly post everywhere after the discussion is already done.
Have fun talking to yourself! I’m outta here!!!
- Status
You seem to randomly post everywhere after the discussion is already done.
Have fun talking to yourself! I’m outta here!!!
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AlegreFe
Guest
There is nothing rude to you in my post. I am just being honest. If you can’t take honosty then that is up to you. I will not be complacent about my Catholic faith. If you take my comments to be rude then it is you not me. I am sorry that you feel this way about my comments. It is not my intention to be rude but just to be honost.
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AlegreFe
Guest
I did read the discussion. The discussion might be done among those who have already posted into the discussion but I am also free to post along with the discussion. Last I checked this is a public forum. So discussions in here are never really done as you say they are. You are not the whole public and I can post what I want.Never said that. Maybe you should read the ENTIRE discussion before posting.
You seem to randomly post everywhere after the discussion is already done.
Have fun talking to yourself! I’m outta here!!!
If you read my full post you will know what I said. I said “if” you say that. I did not say that you actually said that. But from your other posts you don’t think that Mary was conceived without original sin. And you also think that it is possible for Mary to have sinned in her life.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
Key word here is “possible”.
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AlegreFe
Guest
If you’ve read any of the other posts here about what Kécharitôménê means then you would know that it is impossible for Mary to sin. There is no possibility whatsoever for Mary to sin! Period!Key word here is “possible”.
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apophasis
Guest
Not even in Jn. 1:14 does “full of grace” (in context) mean sin free. Certainly Jesus was born without sin, but that’s not what “full of grace” means in that passage. John says this in the context of they themselves beholding His glory. It had to do with His ministry, not specifically His birth. John wasn’t even present at His birth, and even still, you couldn’t behold His being free of sin at birth. Unlike the mideaeval baby pictures of Him, He didn’t really have a halo around His headThe proper and historical interpretation is “full of Grace,” you can see that with what I posted. To be full of grace is to be completely sinfree, just as Jesus was full of Grace (see John 1:14). You can deny the truth, yet denial never changes truth.
.And in Lk. 1:28, “highly favored” has nothing to do with Mary’s own birth (i.e., “immaculately conceived”), but the One she was chosen to give birth to. For this reason she was “highly favored” by God amongst all other Jewish women.“Do not be afraid Mary, for you have found FAVOR with God. And behold, you will conceive (not “you have been immaculately conceived”) in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.”
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apophasis
Guest
Context always determines the meaning - not where’s it’s listed in a dictionary. PLEASE!!!
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sandusky
Guest
Thanks for the link, Joey, I’ve read through it several times.
The writer exaggerates the meaning of charitoo in the tense in which it is being discussed—perfect, passive, participle—and also wrongly exaggerates the distinction between the “form” of the perfect, and the “form” of the aorist; again the distinction between the two is one of timing.
No matter the “timing” of charitoo, the meaning of it remains the same, and the meaning of charitoo has nothing to do with an immaculate conception, or a sinless life, but with a gracing by God, just as with the word “death.” No matter the timing of death, the meaning of death remains the same.
That definition of the aorist fits your need, but it is not a true definition. The aorist is not a “momentary action,” but an action completed in the past; the aorist is unconcerned with a continuing action; the action may continue, or it may not; the aorist doesn’t care about that, it only states that the action occurred in the past.
Also, all of the quotations offered at your link by the “fathers/officials” from the past, are speaking to Mary’s pure, and chaste virginity; none of them speaks to an immaculate conception, or a sinless life.
And therein is the only place that such doctrines make any sense—tradition.
Within the context of “tradition” all of what the CC does makes sense. It is when the scripture is brought to bear upon tradition that it falls apart.
Only within your tradition is that true; remember, the scripture says that in Adam all sin, and all are sinners.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Jesus was not free of sin?
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JoeyWarren
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JoeyWarren
Guest
The Annotation for Luke 1:28 in the 1582 Catholic Rheims Translation of the Bible in to English says:
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JoeyWarren
Guest
The translation “Full of Grace” instead of “Highly Favored” or “freely beloved” is far more accurate to the Greek. The Ancient Syriac, Arabic and Latin versions bare the truth of this out. The translation “Full of Grace” was also approved by the early Christian fathers.
St. Luke wrote kecharitomene [a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo]. In secular Greek charis meant charm, that which attracts favor. It was used to translate Old Testament Hebrew hen which first meant a favorable attitude of God to us, then the expression of that favor, then what He gives as a
result of that favor. namely hokmah or beraka, wisdom or blessing. (Oo verbs means to put someone in the state expressed by the root, which here is charis. ) The word was not used broadly like NT charis which came to mean any gift from God to us. The net result was that charis could mean either favor or grace.
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/Aramaic_Grace.jpg
This Scan is from The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa’s. It is a translation of the ancient Eastern Aramaic Version of the Scriptures called the “Peshitta” . As we can the see third century Aramaic supports “Full of Grace” as the correct meaning of the passage.
Further, in English we may use a noun to mark a person as the ultimate in his class. Kecharitomene is used here as her personal name. So just as Mr. Tennis is the ultimate in the category of tennis. --therefore she would be “Miss Grace”, much the same as full of grace.
The early Church father St. Jerome [who the translators of the 1611 King James Version called " a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him,".(From the Translators’ Preface to the 1611 KJV)] translated “kecharitomene” as “gratiae plena” meaning 'full of grace which thou hast received" when creating The Vulgate. The Rheims new Testament [1582] has “Full of Grace”. Many of the early Protestant versions also accepted “Grace” to be the proper translation.
St. Luke wrote kecharitomene [a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo]. In secular Greek charis meant charm, that which attracts favor. It was used to translate Old Testament Hebrew hen which first meant a favorable attitude of God to us, then the expression of that favor, then what He gives as a
result of that favor. namely hokmah or beraka, wisdom or blessing. (Oo verbs means to put someone in the state expressed by the root, which here is charis. ) The word was not used broadly like NT charis which came to mean any gift from God to us. The net result was that charis could mean either favor or grace.
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/Aramaic_Grace.jpg
This Scan is from The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa’s. It is a translation of the ancient Eastern Aramaic Version of the Scriptures called the “Peshitta” . As we can the see third century Aramaic supports “Full of Grace” as the correct meaning of the passage.
Further, in English we may use a noun to mark a person as the ultimate in his class. Kecharitomene is used here as her personal name. So just as Mr. Tennis is the ultimate in the category of tennis. --therefore she would be “Miss Grace”, much the same as full of grace.
The early Church father St. Jerome [who the translators of the 1611 King James Version called " a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him,".(From the Translators’ Preface to the 1611 KJV)] translated “kecharitomene” as “gratiae plena” meaning 'full of grace which thou hast received" when creating The Vulgate. The Rheims new Testament [1582] has “Full of Grace”. Many of the early Protestant versions also accepted “Grace” to be the proper translation.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/grace.1.gif
Luke 1:28 in the 1611 King James Version has in the Margin notes “Much Graced” http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/full_of_Grace_KJV.jpgThis Scan is taken from the Thomas Nelson reprint of the 1611 King James Version of the Bible.
Luke 1:28 in the 1611 King James Version has in the Margin notes “Much Graced” http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/full_of_Grace_KJV.jpgThis Scan is taken from the Thomas Nelson reprint of the 1611 King James Version of the Bible.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Wyclif’s Version [1380] the verse says "Full of Grace"
Tyndale’s Version [1534] the verse says "Full of Grace"
Cranmer’s Version [1539] the verse says "Full of Grace"
Geneva [1599] says in the Margin Notes "might be rendered, 'full of favour and grace, " The Link is to a Scan from a 1608 Printing of the Geneva Bible]
Authorized Version or KJV [1611] says in the Margin notes** “Much Graced” **
Polyglott Bible [1838] says in the Margin notes** “or Much Graced” **Revised Version [1885] says in the Margin Notes: “Endowed with Grace”.
American Standard Version [1901] says in the Margin Notes: **“or Endowed with Grace”. **
Scofield Edition [1909, revised in 1914] says in the Margin Notes "or Endued with Grace"
New Standard Reference Bible [1934] says in the Margin notes** “Much Graced” **
The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa’s [1957] the verse says "peace be to you, O full of grace"
The Amplified [1958] in the verse (In brackets) “endowed with grace” with a foot note that says “literal translation”
A literal Translation by Jay P. Green [1985] the verse says **“And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace!..” **
The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Jay P. Green [2nd edition 1985] the verse says "…Hail, one receiving grace!..
Tyndale’s Version [1534] the verse says "Full of Grace"
Cranmer’s Version [1539] the verse says "Full of Grace"
Geneva [1599] says in the Margin Notes "might be rendered, 'full of favour and grace, " The Link is to a Scan from a 1608 Printing of the Geneva Bible]
Authorized Version or KJV [1611] says in the Margin notes** “Much Graced” **
Polyglott Bible [1838] says in the Margin notes** “or Much Graced” **Revised Version [1885] says in the Margin Notes: “Endowed with Grace”.
American Standard Version [1901] says in the Margin Notes: **“or Endowed with Grace”. **
Scofield Edition [1909, revised in 1914] says in the Margin Notes "or Endued with Grace"
New Standard Reference Bible [1934] says in the Margin notes** “Much Graced” **
The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa’s [1957] the verse says "peace be to you, O full of grace"
The Amplified [1958] in the verse (In brackets) “endowed with grace” with a foot note that says “literal translation”
A literal Translation by Jay P. Green [1985] the verse says **“And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace!..” **
The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Jay P. Green [2nd edition 1985] the verse says "…Hail, one receiving grace!..
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JoeyWarren
Guest
The Word Pictures in the New Testament, by the renowned Protestant Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, expounds Luke 1:28 as follows:
It is certain that kecharitomene is directly concerned with the idea of “grace,” since, as Vine noted, it is derived from the root word charis, whose literal meaning is "grace. The word “Charis” is translated by the King James Version, for example, 129 times (out of 150 total appearances) as “grace”.
We also have the another Protestant Greek scholar John Nolland, who expounds the Greek word “kecharitomene” as found in Luke 1:28 as follows:
Thus, in just this one verse, pregnant with meaning and far-reaching implications, the uniqueness of Mary is strongly indicated, and the Immaculate Conception can rightly be deemed entirely consistent with the meaning of this passage.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
More Greek References for “Full of Grace” found in Luke 1:28.
“Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]
“Chartoo…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]
"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena ‘full of grace’, even the translators of 1611 King James Version show there approval of this in the Margin with “Much Graced” [A Look at the Greek Scriptures, 1984, New York, Garretson Cox & Company Pg. 123 ]
“Chartoo: Grace. To Grace… as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc. Pg. 1471]
“Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitomene a perfect passive participle of the verb Chartoo (only here and Eph. 1:6)… Abbott- Smith defines Chartoo as follows endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Devine favor)” [Word Meaning in the New Testament, copyright 1986, printed by Henndrickson Publishing, edited by Ralph Earle Pg. 52]
“0 favored one (kecharitomene). angel’s address of Mary marks her out recipient of God’s special grace (BAG BDAG, 1081). For Luke, she is a model beneficiary of God’s grace (1:48). The: other use of this verb in the NT Ephesians 1:6. [charitoo]” [The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study, copyright 2002, printed Victor Publishing, edited by Darrell L. Bock, Pg. 180]
“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc., p. 966]
"Chartoo. . . kecharitomene, full of grace, Luke, i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) "[Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 208]
“Chartoo to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6”[The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 915]
“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers, Jr. Vol. 1, Pg. 140]
“endue with grace” [A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 281]
“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” " [The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The New Testament, copyright 1998, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers III , Pg. 108]
“Chartoo. . . to endue with grace… : Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6” [A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 480]
“Chartoo: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, [unabridged edition], by W. E. VINE, printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, Pg. 424]
“Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]
“Chartoo…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]
"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena ‘full of grace’, even the translators of 1611 King James Version show there approval of this in the Margin with “Much Graced” [A Look at the Greek Scriptures, 1984, New York, Garretson Cox & Company Pg. 123 ]
“Chartoo: Grace. To Grace… as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc. Pg. 1471]
“Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitomene a perfect passive participle of the verb Chartoo (only here and Eph. 1:6)… Abbott- Smith defines Chartoo as follows endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Devine favor)” [Word Meaning in the New Testament, copyright 1986, printed by Henndrickson Publishing, edited by Ralph Earle Pg. 52]
“0 favored one (kecharitomene). angel’s address of Mary marks her out recipient of God’s special grace (BAG BDAG, 1081). For Luke, she is a model beneficiary of God’s grace (1:48). The: other use of this verb in the NT Ephesians 1:6. [charitoo]” [The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study, copyright 2002, printed Victor Publishing, edited by Darrell L. Bock, Pg. 180]
“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc., p. 966]
"Chartoo. . . kecharitomene, full of grace, Luke, i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) "[Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 208]
“Chartoo to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6”[The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 915]
“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers, Jr. Vol. 1, Pg. 140]
“endue with grace” [A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 281]
“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” " [The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The New Testament, copyright 1998, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers III , Pg. 108]
“Chartoo. . . to endue with grace… : Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6” [A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 480]
“Chartoo: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, [unabridged edition], by W. E. VINE, printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, Pg. 424]
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JoeyWarren
Guest
She was the favored child of a poor family
‘Chosen before the creation began’
Sign of the turning tide, the woman encompassing
‘Woe to the serpent and rescue to man’
She, for this enmity, hid in humility, even hiding herself from herself
All the angels dumbfounded and whispering, “who is she, even hiding herself from herself?”
Now for the spark of light, clear-as-glass messenger
He, like a straight shooting arrow of flame,
Shot from behind the veil to this Virgin of Nazareth
Revealing the mystery found in her name
All her brightness of clarity halted his urgency
He knelt down at her feet crying out breathlessly…
Hail! Full of Grace! Kecharitomene! Kecharitomene!
Blessed are you among all women
The God of all holiness, captivated by your lowliness
Conceived in your heart, would now be conceived in your womb
The first fall’s unraveling tied to this mystery
The Woman reclaimed in a garden enclosed
Injured humanity healed in her answering
The humble surrender that toppled a throne
Ark of the Covenant, Cloud overshadowing
The Word to the womb of His handmaid comes leaping
Hail! Full of Grace! Kecharitomene! Kecharitomene!
Blessed are you among all women
And Christ Who now dwells in you
Revealed to us now….
Here is something different:
The woman shall encompass the Man
Our hearts, filled with the music of your greeting
We are dancing in the Presence of the great I AM.
Who am I, the selfish one, the weakest and blindest one,
Frailest in all of the family of man,
That you would come to me, heal me and set me free
With a word you would call me to join in the dance
Hear your music inviting me to hide myself in thee,
To be a child of your mystery, sharing in the Life of the Trinity
Hail, Full of Grace! Kecharitomene! Kecharitomene!
Blessed are you among all women
Gabriel’s greeting in every age echoing,
Resounding in our souls….
Kecharitomene!
Kecharitomene!
Kecharitomene!
Kecharitomene!
‘Chosen before the creation began’
Sign of the turning tide, the woman encompassing
‘Woe to the serpent and rescue to man’
She, for this enmity, hid in humility, even hiding herself from herself
All the angels dumbfounded and whispering, “who is she, even hiding herself from herself?”
Now for the spark of light, clear-as-glass messenger
He, like a straight shooting arrow of flame,
Shot from behind the veil to this Virgin of Nazareth
Revealing the mystery found in her name
All her brightness of clarity halted his urgency
He knelt down at her feet crying out breathlessly…
Hail! Full of Grace! Kecharitomene! Kecharitomene!
Blessed are you among all women
The God of all holiness, captivated by your lowliness
Conceived in your heart, would now be conceived in your womb
The first fall’s unraveling tied to this mystery
The Woman reclaimed in a garden enclosed
Injured humanity healed in her answering
The humble surrender that toppled a throne
Ark of the Covenant, Cloud overshadowing
The Word to the womb of His handmaid comes leaping
Hail! Full of Grace! Kecharitomene! Kecharitomene!
Blessed are you among all women
And Christ Who now dwells in you
Revealed to us now….
Here is something different:
The woman shall encompass the Man
Our hearts, filled with the music of your greeting
We are dancing in the Presence of the great I AM.
Who am I, the selfish one, the weakest and blindest one,
Frailest in all of the family of man,
That you would come to me, heal me and set me free
With a word you would call me to join in the dance
Hear your music inviting me to hide myself in thee,
To be a child of your mystery, sharing in the Life of the Trinity
Hail, Full of Grace! Kecharitomene! Kecharitomene!
Blessed are you among all women
Gabriel’s greeting in every age echoing,
Resounding in our souls….
Kecharitomene!
Kecharitomene!
Kecharitomene!
Kecharitomene!
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mrs_abbott
Guest
You believe whatever you want on this. It’s not the binding thread that will or will not grant you salvation.
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fix
Guest
A Catholic who would deny it would be undoing the entire enterprise. Once that doctrine is jettisoned, it would mean the one rejecting it is making themself the arbiter of what is required for salvation rather than Christ.You believe whatever you want on this. It’s not the binding thread that will or will not grant you salvation.
Can you see the logic?
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