How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

[AlegreFe]

Not even in Jn. 1:14 does “full of grace” (in context) mean sin free.

What?! You don’t think Jesus is sin free?!

Certainly Jesus was born without sin, but that’s not what “full of grace” means in that passage.

Your interpretation, your opinion.

John says this in the context of they themselves beholding His glory.

So John told you himself that this is what he meant?

It had to do with His ministry, not specifically His birth.

So you say that Jesus was born with sin and not until His ministry began then He was free of sin? So Jesus was full of sin and then when He began His ministry He was full of grace & truth?

14 And the Word became flesh and
made his dwelling among us, and we
saw his glory, the glory as of the
Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14

That verse is so simple. There is nothing there that says that we are only to behold Jesus as full of grace in His ministry. This verse is just saying that Jesus is full of grace and truth and says nothing about beholding Him whether at His birth or at the beginning of His ministry. God is a simple God. The Holy Spirit revealed Himself to John in a very simple way here with this verse. Nothing complicated about it.

John wasn’t even present at His birth, and even still, you couldn’t behold His being free of sin at birth. Unlike the mideaeval baby pictures of Him, He didn’t really have a halo around His head.

:whacky: Oh my goodness! And how do you know He didn’t have a halo around His head? Were you there? Jesus could certainly have had a very bright light around Him. We don’t know. Those pictures are just for us to know that Jesus was indeed born free of sin and that He is Holy among men. Those pictures are not to prove that Jesus was born with a halo around His head. You must really think that we Catholics are stupid.

Dear God, help this poor person who thinks that one cannot behold your son being free of sin at birth.

And in Lk. 1:28, “highly favored” has nothing to do with Mary’s own birth (i.e., “immaculately conceived”), but the One she was chosen to give birth to. For this reason she was “highly favored” by God amongst all other Jewish women.“Do not be afraid Mary, for you have found FAVOR with God. And behold, you will conceive (not “you have been immaculately conceived”) in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.”

“Highly favored” is not a translation of “Kécharitôménê.” Are you fluent in Koine Greek? Are you saying that all those dozens & dozens of websites and webpages and also ECF that say that Kécharitôménê actually means “one who has been perfected in grace” (or the like) are wrong? Are you willing to Email all of them to correct their “error?” Are you willing to change the Greek dictionary as to what the definition of Kécharitôménê is?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If ALL had sinned were literally true then Jesus would have sinned. We know that is not true therefore we know there is an exception to ALL.

What’s so hard to understand about that? There are many places in the Bible where ALL does not mean “Each and every one”.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe:

Mary’s Sinlessness is part of our Deposit of Faith which is taught by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church!!

And therein is the only place that such doctrines make any sense—tradition.
Within the context of “tradition” all of what the CC does makes sense. It is when the scripture is brought to bear upon tradition that it falls apart.

Mary’s sinlessness IS in Scripture. We’ve just pointed that out to you. You just don’t want to see it for fear of your “salvation” being in danger if you dare say that Mary is sinless.

So your statement about Mary’s sinlessness being in Catholic Tradition is not true. It is part of Sacred Scripture.

sandusky:

AlegreFe:

If you’ve read any of the other posts here about what Kécharitôménê means then you would know that it is impossible for Mary to sin. There is no possibility whatsoever for Mary to sin! Period!

Only within your tradition is that true; remember, the scripture says that in Adam all sin, and all are sinners.

Don’t take the “all” in a literal sense. Mary’s sinlessness IS part of Sacred Scripture.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe:

Mary’s Sinlessness is part of our Deposit of Faith which is taught by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church!!

And therein is the only place that such doctrines make any sense—tradition.
Within the context of “tradition” all of what the CC does makes sense. It is when the scripture is brought to bear upon tradition that it falls apart.

Mary’s sinlessness IS in Scripture. We’ve just pointed that out to you. You just don’t want to see it for fear of your “salvation” being in danger if you dare say that Mary is sinless.

So your statement about Mary’s sinlessness being in Catholic Tradition is not true. It is part of Sacred Scripture.

sandusky:

AlegreFe:

If you’ve read any of the other posts here about what Kécharitôménê means then you would know that it is impossible for Mary to sin. There is no possibility whatsoever for Mary to sin! Period!

Only within your tradition is that true; remember, the scripture says that in Adam all sin, and all are sinners.

Don’t take the “all” in a literal sense. Mary’s sinlessness IS part of Sacred Scripture.

 

[AlegreFe]

You believe whatever you want on this. It’s not the binding thread that will or will not grant you salvation.

If I say that Mary did commit sin throughout her life then I am committing heresy against God. God was the one that called her Kécharitôménê! Are you calling God a liar?!!

Satan is indeed enjoying that a Catholic person does not believe that Mary is sinless. Satan is the liar, not God who called Mary Kécharitôménê! Satan can’t stand that God put emnity between him and Mary and between Mary’s seed and his seed. Pray and think about it.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten you because you really need some enlightening.

 

[AlegreFe]

A Catholic who would deny it would be undoing the entire enterprise. Once that doctrine is jettisoned, it would mean the one rejecting it is making themself the arbiter of what is required for salvation rather than Christ.

Can you see the logic?

I sure can see the logic! I definitely don’t want to define what will “save” me in the end. God did that for us.

 

[AlegreFe]

Where does it say that it’s necessary to accept Mary for salvation in the Bible???

It is necessary to believe all that God has revealed to us and that includes to believe all that God has said. God was the one that called Mary, Kécharitôménê! You do realize that all that the angels have said, God has actually said it. They are only His messengers.

I just can’t help that you don’t know what Kécharitôménê means. And if you do really know what it truly means, you just don’t want to accept it or believe that Mary has been called Kécharitôménê by God.

 

[believers]

First of all you need to learn a few things about rules of grammer.

God is addressing the Serpent in verse 14. In verse 15 the subject is about the woman and the serpent.

This word “It” in the KJV and the “She” in the Catholic Bibles(The Latin version has “She” in the Latin form).

When Satan was guiding the Anti-Catholic translators of the KJV, he got them to use the generic IT instead of the proper SHE.

I will reiterate

Verse 14 God addresses the Serpent.
Verse 15 The subjects of the conversation is Eve and Serpent.
Verse 16 God addresses Eve
Verse 17 God finally addresses Adam.

You have got to be kidding. I just checked a CATHOLIC bible that says “IT”. So much for your argument.

 

[believers]

Actually, God is not capable of doing “anything.” For instance, He is not capable of sinning, or exercising any action against His own Personal attributes, such as His veracity, holiness or righteousness. And certainly the great, “I AM,” is incapable of denying Himself.True Christianity is based not on human speculation, but divine revelation.

So for starters, what you suggest must be revealed by God, but is not. We are not allowed the liberty to state, “I think,” when it comes to the faith.

And beyond that, for God to do what you suggest above, i.e., arbitrarily, and temporarily “erase” Mary of all sins, He would have had to go against His own justice in respect to the offense of human sin.

Scripture reveals that sins are forgiven and men are cleansed of all unrighteousness by God based solely on the propitiatory sin-sacrifice of the Son. Propitiatory in that His substitutionary, blood sacrifice satisfied the offended holiness of God because of man’s sins. Not even the Almighty, without denying Himself, could simply “erase” sins at will - not even Mary’s (an idea based on the false notion that Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, the Son of God).

Christ’s blood sacrifice was the only way He could justly, and forever, deal with the whole sin issue. As Jesus Himself prayed to the Father concerning this possibility:Matt. 26:39 "And He went a little beyond {them,} and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."Obviously the answer was no. There was no other way possible for God to justly forgive, redeem and cleanse men of sin but through the blood of His cross.

Man’s sinful estate, experiential and being in Adam, is not a moral issue, or reality, God can turn on and turn off like a light bulb. Not in Mary or any of Adam’s descendants. God must judge sin (not simply erase it), and His Judgment Day on our sins was 2000 years ago when He imputed themto His beloved Son on the cross and judged Him in our stead - and He died. And since His bodily resurrection, three days later, the “Word of reconciliation,” through personal faith in Christ, has gone out to the world, preached to each generation, beginning with the Apostles.

Amen

 

[believers]

Please read the post below by apophasis.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

Babies aren’t capable of sinning. A man next door knows right from wrong, and knows any act of murderer is morally correct. Do you think babies were already smart and know God at their birth? I doubt that. We have parents who taught them about living, about God, and we send children to school to learn.

This isn’t that complicated.

Think of it this way, are we all not born into original sin? Yes! So until our baptism we are in sin. After the sacrament of baptism all sin is removed from us, but only through Christ’s sacrifice. So all have sinned though Adam.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This isn’t that complicated.

Think of it this way, are we all not born into original sin? Yes! So until our baptism we are in sin. After the sacrament of baptism all sin is removed from us, but only through Christ’s sacrifice. So all have sinned though Adam.

The context all have sin refers to comitting actual sin. Infants are not capable of commiting actual sin.

 

[believers]

The context all have sin refers to comitting actual sin. Infants are not capable of commiting actual sin.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:26
To declare, *, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27
Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.*

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

So does this mean if you accuse the Holy Spirit as being of Satan then you are blaspheming Him? Or is there more to it then what I understand it to be?

Any help would be much appreciated.

:bless you:

Good question, Beelzebub is not Satan, but second in command. As far as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, a better answer would be to think of the Church. Jesus handed authority to the Church through Peter, Matthew 16:
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.*

So to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit today is to Blaspheme the Church, that is what you need to know. Respect and obey Church dogma, for if you call it from Satan as many do today, and call the RCC a cult, they blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

But remember, Jesus also said “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”. So if we do not forgive others, neither are we forgiven, and is an unforgivable sin as well.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:26
To declare, *, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27
Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.*

Mankind can sin because he can reason and judge what is right and wrong.

Infants who have not learn of sin and the nature of sin cannot commit actual sin until they reach the age of reason.

How do you define sin? Sin is any act in violation of God’s Law.

Infants are bound by the stains of the 'original sin", but at the moment of their birth, the babies *cannot commit *actually sin.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

Sorry folks

That last post of mine ended up on the wrong thread.

 

[believers]

Mankind can sin because he can reason and judge what is right and wrong.

Infants who have not learn of sin and the nature of sin cannot commit actual sin until they reach the age of reason.

How do you define sin? Sin is any act in violation of God’s Law.

Infants are bound by the stains of the 'original sin", but at the moment of their birth, the babies *cannot commit *actually sin.

Rom 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sorry folks

That last post of mine ended up on the wrong thread.

Don’t worry about it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Rom 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

So you believe infants can commit actual sin? like murder? adultery, fornication, homosexual?

 

[believers]

So you believe infants can commit actual sin? like murder? adultery, fornication, homosexual?

According to the Word of God, we all are born into this world with a very serious sin problem which needs to be dealt with.