How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

[Mannyfit75]

According to the Word of God, we all are born into this world with a very serious sin problem which needs to be dealt with.

You didn’t answer the question. Can infant commit actually sin?

I believed that infants are stained by the sins of Adam and Eve, since through their disobedience death came into the world. By the time infants reaches the age of reason (8 yrs) they can commit actual sins by knowing what is evil and good.

 

[believers]

You didn’t answer the question. Can infant commit actually sin?

I believed that infants are stained by the sins of Adam and Eve, since through their disobedience death came into the world. By the time infants reaches the age of reason (8 yrs) they can commit actual sins by knowing what is evil and good.

What you don’t understand is that it doesn’t matter. The sin we are born with KILLS US eternally if we don’t do anything to fix the problem.

 

[Mannyfit75]

What you don’t understand is that it doesn’t matter. The sin we are born with KILLS US eternally if we don’t do anything to fix the problem.

Indeed, we are doom to fall if we do not repent.

Note we actually have to do something, a work to save ourselves by doing what Jesus wants us to do.

through baptism we are saved. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” John Chapter 5 verse 3.

To be born of water, one must be baptized. In the Book of Acts, Peter said, "And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” Acts Chapter 2 verse 38-39.

This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ’s mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church’s Divine Founder. We shall now outline the principal effects of baptism.

(1) The Remission of All Sin, Original and Actual

This is clearly contained in the Bible. Thus we read (Acts 2:38): “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call.” We read also in the twenty-second chapter of the Acts of the Apostles (verse 16): “Be baptized, and wash away thy sins.” St. Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25 sq.): “Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” The prophecy of Ezechiel (36:25) has also been understood of baptism: “I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness (inquinamentis), where the prophet is unquestionably speaking of moral defilements. This is also the solemn teaching of the Church. In the profession of faith prescribed by Pope Innocent III for the Waldensians in 1210, we read: We believe that all sins are remitted in baptism, both original sin and those sins which have been voluntarily committed.” The Council of Trent (Sess. V., can. v) anathematizes whomsoever denies that the grace of Christ which is conferred in baptism does not remit the guilt of original sin; or asserts that everything which can truly and properly be called sin is not thereby taken away. The same is taught by the Fathers. St. Justin Martyr (Apol., I, Ixvi) declares that in baptism we are created anew, that is, consequently, free from all stain of sin. St. Ambrose (De Myst., iii) says of baptism: “This is the water in which the flesh is submerged that all carnal sin may be washed away. Every transgression is there buried.” Tertullian (De Bapt., vii) writes: “Baptism is a carnal act in as much as we are submerged in the water; but the effect is spiritual, for we are freed from our sins.” The words of Origen (In Gen., xiii) are classic: “If you transgress, you write unto yourself the handwriting [chirographum] of sin. But, behold, when you have once approached to the cross of Christ and to the grace of baptism, your handwriting is affixed to the cross and blotted out in the font of baptism.” It is needless to multiply testimonies from the early ages of the Church. It is a point on which the Fathers are unanimous, and telling quotations might also be made from St. Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzen, and others.

 

[believers]

Indeed, through baptism we are saved. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” John Chapter 5 verse 3.

To be born of water, one must be baptized. In the Book of Acts, Peter said, "And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” Acts Chapter 2 verse 38-39.

This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ’s mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church’s Divine Founder. We shall now outline the principal effects of baptism.

(1) The Remission of All Sin, Original and Actual

This is clearly contained in the Bible. Thus we read (Acts 2:38): “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call.” We read also in the twenty-second chapter of the Acts of the Apostles (verse 16): “Be baptized, and wash away thy sins.” St. Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25 sq.): “Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” The prophecy of Ezechiel (36:25) has also been understood of baptism: “I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness (inquinamentis), where the prophet is unquestionably speaking of moral defilements. This is also the solemn teaching of the Church. In the profession of faith prescribed by Pope Innocent III for the Waldensians in 1210, we read: We believe that all sins are remitted in baptism, both original sin and those sins which have been voluntarily committed.” The Council of Trent (Sess. V., can. v) anathematizes whomsoever denies that the grace of Christ which is conferred in baptism does not remit the guilt of original sin; or asserts that everything which can truly and properly be called sin is not thereby taken away. The same is taught by the Fathers. St. Justin Martyr (Apol., I, Ixvi) declares that in baptism we are created anew, that is, consequently, free from all stain of sin. St. Ambrose (De Myst., iii) says of baptism: “This is the water in which the flesh is submerged that all carnal sin may be washed away. Every transgression is there buried.” Tertullian (De Bapt., vii) writes: “Baptism is a carnal act in as much as we are submerged in the water; but the effect is spiritual, for we are freed from our sins.” The words of Origen (In Gen., xiii) are classic: “If you transgress, you write unto yourself the handwriting [chirographum] of sin. But, behold, when you have once approached to the cross of Christ and to the grace of baptism, your handwriting is affixed to the cross and blotted out in the font of baptism.” It is needless to multiply testimonies from the early ages of the Church. It is a point on which the Fathers are unanimous, and telling quotations might also be made from St. Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzen, and others.

Yes, baptism saves… but which baptism? The baptism of repentance (which John did) or the baptism of the Holy Ghost (which Jesus does)?

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: BUT he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, baptism saves… but which baptism? The baptism of repentance (which John did) or the baptism of the Holy Ghost (which Jesus does)?

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: BUT he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

There is only One Baptism. There are no other forms of baptism (for us Catholics), but for Non-Catholic Christians (like yourself), you may have two baptism.

During our baptism, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit just as Peter said is his letter.

 

[believers]

There is only One Baptism. There are no other forms of baptism.

Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Paul said…
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, BUT to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[Mannyfit75]

We are drifting to another topic which is baptism. Do you want to open a new thread?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Paul said…
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, BUT to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Yes, we do need to open a new thread.

 

[AlegreFe]

fix:

Where does it say we each get to interpret the bible ourselves and claim it is the right interpretation even when there are millions of differing interpretations all contradicting each other?

2 Tim.3:14-17
14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,
15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 3, 4 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

I’m glad you used those verses. Well any verse that you use I can turn it right around on you.

The sacred scriptures of which they speak are the Old Testament scriptures not the New. They learned as they were growing up from the OT scriptures. They learned it from someone else. They did not leave the interpretations up to themselves or from someone who was not authorized to teach.

It says that all scripture is inspired by God and “is useful” for teaching…
it does not say, “is sufficient” for teaching. The written word is not the only authority for teaching. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the bible.

Here are the footnotes for those verses;
3 [16-17] Useful for teaching . . . every good work:
because as God’s word the scriptures share his
divine authority. It is exercised through those
who are ministers of the word.

It says “share” in His Divine authority. Ministers of the Word are those Bishops who are the successors of the Apostles. God gave those Bishops the authority to teach the Word in His Church.

4 [16] All scripture is inspired by God:
this could possibly also be translated, “All scripture
inspired by God is useful for. . . .” In this classic
reference to inspiration, God is its principal author,
with the writer as the human collaborator. Thus the
scriptures are the word of God in human language.
See also 2 Peter 1:20-21.

20 Know this first of all, that there is no
prophecy of scripture that is a matter of
personal interpretation,
21 for no prophecy ever came through human
will; but rather human beings moved by the
holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.
2 Pet 1:20-21

[20-21] Often cited, along with 2 Tim 3:16, on the “inspiration”
of scripture or against private interpretation, these verses
in context are directed against the false teachers of
2 Peter 2 and clever tales (2 Peter 1:16). The prophetic
word in scripture comes admittedly through human beings
(2 Peter 1:21), but moved by the holy Spirit, not from their
own interpretation, and is a matter of what the author and
Spirit intended, not the personal interpretation of false
teachers. Instead of under the influence of God, some
manuscripts read “holy ones of God.”

more in next post…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont.

fix:

Where does it say in the bible Christ founded a book and not a Church?

It doesn’t say one way or the other.

Yes it does.

16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the
Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are
you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and
blood has not revealed this to you, but
my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not
prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of
heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on
earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Blue Serenity:

Do you define “church” as a “body of believers”?

I define Church as the Body of Christ whose members were Baptized as infants and some as adults and therefore adopted by God. But it doesn’t stop there; the Church is the Authority of the Truth who is the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
The Church has 4 marks;

1. 
   *]One - Jesus reconciled all of us to God in One Body
   *]Holy - Jesus loved His Bride and gave Himself up for her so as to Sanctify her.
   *]Catholic - In keeping to the WHOLE; she has been sent out by Jesus to the whole of the human race.
   *]Apostolic - She is founded on the Apostles who were witnesses chosen by Jesus Christ. She keeps the witness of the Apostles and hands on the teachings and continues to do so until Christ’s return. This is done through the successors (of the Apostles) in pastoral office who are the Bishops assisted by priests in union with the successor of Peter, the Church’s Supreme Pastor.
   
   more in next post…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont.

fix:

Where does it say anything not explicitly stated in the bible is wrong?

It doesn’t. That’s why we don’t know what happened with Jesus between the ages of 12 and 30.

Don’t you mean;

• from the time He was born until He was 8 days old
• then between 8 days & 40 days when He was presented at the temple
• then between 40 days and the age of 12
• then between the age of 12 and 30
• 

Blue Serenity:

Of course there’s stuff missing but everything we need to know is in the Bible.

WRONG!

15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and
hold fast to the traditions that you were
taught, either by an oral statement or
by a letter of ours.
2 Thess 2:15

If everything you need is in the Bible then explain what you have that is “oral?” And tell me that whoever taught you the “oral” part is indeed authorized by God through the laying on of hands that leads all the way to the Apostles. Do you have Bishops in your church? The “oral” for the Church that Jesus built is Sacred Tradition on which the Catholic Church stands firm.

15 But if I should be delayed, you should
know how to behave in the household of
God, which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and foundation of truth.
1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ founded a Church not a book. So there is no way that you can say that the book is sufficient for teaching.
The Church came before the Bible.
Blue Serenity:

fix:

How can one claim full communion when one denies a doctrine the Church says is necessary to assent to in a very serious way? To deny the authority of the Church to bind one in such a manner is to say one is above the Church. That is not being faithful, is it?

Good thing I’m not a Catholic then. The doctrines you have to hold to attain salvation are heretic and are referenced no where in the Bible (e.g. Mary being worshipped and honored).

They are not heretical! They are of the Holy Spirit who guides the Catholic Church!

We do NOT “worship” Mary. We honor Mary just as Jesus Christ honored Mary. He was subject to both Mary and His foster father. Jesus obeyed when He was 12 and was told to go back home with both of them, Mary & Joseph. He was a humble and obedient Jewish man. He also obeyed His mother at the wedding in Cana when His mother told the servants to do whatever Jesus told them to do. We also honor Mary just as John honored Mary. All that is Scriptural.

The word “honor” in the commandments actually should say “glorify.” That is a more proper translation. God exalts Mary, so we should too; nothing wrong with that. Shouldn’t we be perfect as God is perfect?

 

[believers]

There is only One Baptism. There are no other forms of baptism (for us Catholics), but for Non-Catholic Christians (like yourself), you may have two baptism.

During our baptism, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit just as Peter said is his letter.

Yes, but only according to the private interpretation of scripture by the Catholic church…

"1213 …Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

Sorry… but that’s not how it works. No man can wash away sins… much less with a bowl of water.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, but only according to the private interpretation of scripture by the Catholic church…

"1213 …Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

Sorry… but that’s not how it works. No man can wash away sins… much less with a bowl of water.

Jesus commanded us, “Baptized them, In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

Baptism isn’t just symbolic. Something supernatural happens. It is not man who washes away sins, when a priest recite, “I, baptized you, In the Name of the Father, of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” God washes away the sin.

I’m opening new thread by the way.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbol

 

[Mannyfit75]

believers,

reply to this thread in this new Forum I made:

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=128447
Catholic Baptism vs. Protestant Baptism

 

[AlegreFe]

Another misguided, mis-informed, and mis-understood unwitting unaware pawn of Satan…continuing to spread false information against his church.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Satan will continue to try to attack the Church but as said by Jesus Himself, he shall not prevail!

 

[Mannyfit75]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Agree.gif

Satan will continue to try to attack the Church but as said by Jesus Himself, he shall not prevail!

Amen, Sandy:thumbsup:

 

[AlegreFe]

I think many Protestants hold this belief because some Catholics hold the Marian doctrines necessary for salvation, when they are, in fact, not.

The Marian doctrines are Dogmas of the Faith! We are to obey everything that the Church teaches. Who told you that you are exempt of this? Do you put yourself above the Catholic Church? Well you could put yourself exempt of any teachings of the Church; that just means that you are a “cafeteria” Catholic, a “catholic” in name only. I’m sure you don’t consider yourself that kind of Catholic though. I’m sure you are very devout in your Catholic faith and therefore make sure that you hold to all the teachings of the Church right?

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Marian doctrines are Dogmas of the Faith! We are to obey everything that the Church teaches. Who told you that you are exempt of this? Do you put yourself above the Catholic Church? Well you could put yourself exempt of any teachings of the Church; that just means that you are a “cafeteria” Catholic, a “catholic” in name only. I’m sure you don’t consider yourself that kind of Catholic though. I’m sure you are very devout in your Catholic faith and therefore make sure that you hold to all the teachings of the Church right?

Dogmas like Immaculate Conception and the Assumption is part of the Catholic teachings. However, we don’t have to believe in the private revelations like the Fatima message or Marian apparition.

 

[AlegreFe]

That’s what I get from the Catholics here, anyways. Only a handful have tried to graciously explain these to me.
I just don’t see why you have to accept the Marian doctrines in order to be saved, according to the CC? The Bible talks NOTHING of that. I’m just confused on why Catholics believe what they believe.

mrs abbott is not an Authority of the Catholic Church. Neither am I but at least I obey the Catholic Church.

I know very well that the Marian doctrines are a Dogma of the Faith of the Catholic Church. We are to believe in Jesus Christ and everything that He has revealed to us by God which He has fully deposited in the Catholic Church. I am to obey the Catholic Church because God said that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.