How can condoms be an obstacle to God?

[Soren_Itenu]

That it’s “God’s Will” that we push out as many babies as nature randomly chooses to give us in our lifetime?

You continue to beg the question. Please revise.

 

[Buzzard_86]

Its funny how you all guys, just argue using the bible as an argument, I mean like you were so sure that its divinely inspired. Have you guys asked yourself and made some real investigation to prove that? I ve done it, the bible has been edited a lot of times. Guess who did that?. Theres prove that constantine edited the bible to help unify the roman empire, and theres a lot of prove a lot of other governors did that.

** Ummmm, we’re Christians and the grand majority of the replies are from Christians of the Catholic Church… so yeah, we use the Bible as well as Sacred Tradition. Kinda goes without saying.**

I know you guys are probably thinking thats not true, “no way I ve read the bible and I “felt” the word of god in there and by living following their rules I ve been as happy as never”. Well guess why? its meant to be felt like that, to “ease” your life, because yeah its an easy path, and I get why you guys follow the easy path, but come on.

** “Easy path”? Now I know you have not fully read the bible **

Use logic not a book, you guys cant know for certain now that the book its edited or not, I know it was, theres prove of it, and all your moral constructions are based on self-interest of old monarchs. Anyway you guys feel probably so sure its the word of god, just because you feel it, try to understand that how you feel about stuff can not be arguments, your feelings towards the “bad” acts are learned.

** Logic in a nutshell in defense of the Faith:
1) Reverse-engineer the Evolutionist/Atheistic view of the universe and life as we know it; all the way back to the space dust that led to the “big bang” and you will find yourself faced with the uncomfortable question of “where did the space dust and all this empty void come from”… Logic will tell you that there is an all-powerful Divine Being that created everything, aka God. It is a greater leap of faith to believe that there is no God and that everything evolved as many modern scientists would have you believe (they contradict their own laws of science and physics explaining away God), than it does to simply believe in God using the logic in the brain he gave us.
2) Now that we can logically believe in the existence of God who created everything and everyone, it stands to reason that He would interact with his creations and that we, in good conscience and logic, should honor Him and obey His laws. But you may ask yourself, “There are so many different religions out there, which should I follow to know how to honor and obey the One True God?” - Simple, go with the oldest. Judaism is the oldest religion, going all the way back to Adam and Eve; Christianity (specifically Catholicism) is simply a continuation of Judaism, we recognize Christ as the Messiah and Son of God that the Jewish prophets foretold.
3) Having established that the God of the Jewish peoples is the One True God and Christ is His Son, our Savior, and also God in Trinity with the Holy Spirit; then everything written down that God spoke through the Jewish prophets and what the Apostles witnessed and spoke of, is in fact, Divinely inspired. Hence the Word of God, and our obligation to believe. We KNOW it’s the word of God. Not because we just “feel it”, we feel it because we have used logic to UNDERSTAND it and our understanding compels us to BELIEVE it.
4) God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and the very definition of Truth to list just a few. So then, when Christ left Peter as the shepherd of His church and made him the promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it (the church); that includes the teachings of the church, not just the body of the church. Your inference that the Bible has been edited to serve the whims of man and so is no longer Divinely inspired or to be taken as such, would mean that Christ (who is God, and the very definition of Truth) is a liar; which is logically impossible as it goes against His very nature as God.

(Okay, maybe more like “logic in a coconut shell”…)**

I’ll continue this in a second post…

 

[Buzzard_86]

I mean even if your god existed its ridicoulous you guys think its a “nice” god, a forgiving and understanding god. If it existed and all the bible were true word of god, still god would be an *******, who the **** is jesus to come and tell you that if you dont love him you ll go to hell.

** You seriously crack me up. Again, you show that you have not fully read nor understood the Bible. God is the epitome of Truth and Justice. While He loves all of us, if we sin and remain unrepentant His justice requires that we receive our just punishment; for Him to do otherwise would again go against His very nature. I do not know where you got your information that we have a fuzzy-warm, feel-good understanding of God as some sort of pushover that will fail to hold us accountable for our transgressions. Also, God isn’t whatever expletive you meant to profane Him with; He is a just God (see above “epitome of Truth and Justice”) If someone murdered a friend of yours, would you call a judge a “dirty so-and-so” for sentencing the murderer to life imprisonment? Who is Jesus to tell us… well, basically anything? Ummmm, He’s God.**

Hear that well, imagine someone coming and telling you: “if you dont love me more than your sons, your family, your friends, and everyone you know you ll go to hell and burn for eternity”. Sounds like an ******* to me.

He is God, He created everything and everyone and it is our obligation to obey and love Him more than life itself. He gave us free will so you can choose not to believe, obey, honor, or love Him; that is your or anyone’s choice, not all people fulfill their obligations. That my friend, is between you and God. I would encourage you to use your own logic and you will see the truth in what I, and my brothers and sisters in Christ believe. If you question faith in God, not from of malice but rather from a sincere desire to know the Truth; following the truth with an open heart and mind will lead you to no other destination than a belief in God. Be honest with yourself and hold yourself accountable, as only you and God know what is in your heart. I truly pray you succeed on your quest for truth, may God grant you all the graces that you require in your search.

pax vobiscum

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Am I the only one who smells a troll in luis39?

 

[Sillara]

I meant no personal offense, but I am willing to admit this:

I almost always tend be prideful and blunt.

That’s something I have to fix within myself that this church is capable of helping me with.

But I have to make the point, that the story of Onan is corresponding to Jewish tradition, Christian revelation and, in many states, government authority.

All 3 of these things to not constitute sound reasoning.

You appealed to the authority of the Bible in your post. Onan’s story is in there. If you disagree with the interpretation I have mentioned, then you simply illustrate one of the reasons why sola scriptura does not work well.

Appeal to authority is valid in argument so long as both parties acknowledge the authority. You yourself appealed to the Bible, an authority I, too, acknowledge, and that makes the use of it in argument valid.

 

[Gaerteuth]

I appealed to the Bible as authority because last I checked, Christianity was based on it.

I don’t actually take the Bible as a source of authority myself. I was trying to be relatable by using the very source of your faith.

It astounds me how much Catholicism can twist and best its own holy book to get the most widespread political and ideological support.

“We believe this, but not this” and “This is allegory, this is not.”

They’re basically whittling themselves down to the last breath of any credibility they have left, and adjusting the system every time new evidence comes in.

 

[Sillara]

I appealed to the Bible as authority because last I checked, Christianity was based on it.

I don’t actually take the Bible as a source of authority myself. I was trying to be relatable by using the very source of your faith.

It astounds me how much Catholicism can twist and best its own holy book to get the most widespread political and ideological support.

“We believe this, but not this” and “This is allegory, this is not.”

They’re basically whittling themselves down to the last breath of any credibility they have left, and adjusting the system every time new evidence comes in.

If you do not believe in it, then do not use it argument. How is one to debate if one of the debaters is unclear about which authorities he might accept?

If you think that the Church twists its own holy book, then you are gravely mistaken. It is, after all, the Church’s own book.

I am a novelist. When someone reads my books and tries to interpret what they mean, and I say, “No, actually this means something else. This is the meaning here.”, then I am correct. The reader is not. How do I know? It is my book.

The Church has the authority to interpret the Bible. Not you. Not I.

You are also mistaken about “the very source” of my faith. As a Catholic, I believe that Christ left us a Church, and through the Church provided the Bible, not the other way 'round.

What, precisely, is the foundation of your belief that God (and do you mean by this the same God referenced in Christianity?) does NOT care about your sexual morals?

 

[Gaerteuth]

What, precisely, is the foundation of your belief that God (and do you mean by this the same God referenced in Christianity?) does NOT care about your sexual morals?

I didn’t say that the Christian god doesn’t care about sexual morals.

I’m saying that contraception is not an issue of morality to begin with.

You can’t harm something that doesn’t exist.
The official stance of the church is that a human life begins at conception, and if the conception hasn’t even happened yet, there is no way you can be harming a human life.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I didn’t say that the Christian god doesn’t care about sexual morals.

I’m saying that contraception is not an issue of morality to begin with.

You can’t harm something that doesn’t exist.
The official stance of the church is that a human life begins at conception, and if the conception hasn’t even happened yet, there is no way you can be harming a human life.

You are forgetting about the two other lives – the man and the woman using the contraception. They are harming their own lives.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Sillara:

I am a novelist. When someone reads my books and tries to interpret what they mean, and I say, “No, actually this means something else. This is the meaning here.”, then I am correct. The reader is not. How do I know? It is my book.

The Church has the authority to interpret the Bible. Not you. Not I.

Nailed it.

 

[aspirant]

Am I the only one who smells a troll in luis39?

 

[Em_in_FL]

You seriously think that God has nothing better to worry about than making sure that you constantly live in anticipation of a screaming infant?

That it’s “God’s Will” that we push out as many babies as nature randomly chooses to give us in our lifetime?

Since you’ve mentioned the Bible being an authority on Christian teachings… then we can certainly go back to God’s very first commandment that said, “Be fruitful and multiply!”, correct?

I can’t see any compelling reason why intent and means are so important to preserve.

The only commonplace reasoning I’ve seen for it is:

Revelation (which cannot be trusted)
Tradition (which is only meaningful to it’s followers, completely subjective)
Authority (which is in itself empty)

There have been some who try to use real arguments for your cause, but I haven’t found one that don’t collapse under the weight of their own assumptions.

God made sex for human enjoyment and happiness, yet the Church is trying to regulate it and traditionalize it and get into everybody’s sex life, speculating over ridiculous details.

Looking at creation as a whole… sex is purposeful for the continuation of a species. They were all designed to have reproductive capabilities. Animals and fungi don’t go around having sex for enjoyment and happiness, they do so to reproduce. It’s ingrained in their DNA.
Humans are lucky enough to have the capability to have sex UNIFY two creatures on a deeper level… but that’s a bonus God gave to those He made “in His image”, not the original purpose of “sex”, by design.

I appealed to the Bible as authority because last I checked, Christianity was based on it.

I don’t actually take the Bible as a source of authority myself. I was trying to be relatable by using the very source of your faith.

It astounds me how much Catholicism can twist and best its own holy book to get the most widespread political and ideological support.

“We believe this, but not this” and “This is allegory, this is not.”

They’re basically whittling themselves down to the last breath of any credibility they have left, and adjusting the system every time new evidence comes in.

Same as it’s always been and always will be… I’m not sure this is anything “new” and not sure how the church is “twisting” anything…

I didn’t say that the Christian god doesn’t care about sexual morals.

I’m saying that contraception is not an issue of morality to begin with.

You can’t harm something that doesn’t exist.
The official stance of the church is that a human life begins at conception, and if the conception hasn’t even happened yet, there is no way you can be harming a human life.

God instituted the basis for these teachings in the 10 Commandments to the Jews… the concepts of “You shall not commit adultery” assumes that a marriage covenant is in place. The church takes this established teaching and sanctifies it as a sacrament… that this COVENANT is important enough to treasure.

Contraception is harmful in two different ways.
First off, many forms actually DO harm a human life, like you’re alluding to. Hormonal contraceptives work in two ways - one to prevent ovulation, and two to prevent an already-conceived-human-embryo from attaching to the uterine wall. This DOES destroy a human life.
Secondly, other forms of contraception (like condoms, etc), while they may not go against “Thou shalt not kill” certainly do go against that COVENANT of marriage that is based on the “You shall not commit adultery” commandment. That commandment is to protect the sanctity of the marriage covenant, which is expressed through exclusive sexual relations between husband and wife. Condoms alter that act and alter the PURPOSE of sex for reproduction.

These aren’t all crazy unrelated ideas… it’s a very consistent and logical teaching.

 

[Gaerteuth]

Secondly, other forms of contraception (like condoms, etc), while they may not go against “Thou shalt not kill” certainly do go against that COVENANT of marriage that is based on the “You shall not commit adultery” commandment. That commandment is to protect the sanctity of the marriage covenant, which is expressed through exclusive sexual relations between husband and wife. Condoms alter that act and alter the PURPOSE of sex for reproduction.

These aren’t all crazy unrelated ideas… it’s a very consistent and logical teaching.

It’s consistent, but it’s definitely not logical. Mainly because you can whittle it completely down to “God said so.”

“Thou shalt not commit adultery” is actually quite a narrow commandment. If you’re taken, don’t cheat. That’s simple enough. It can be explained in nature, since they’ve found that when a man becomes a father, his testosterone drops to keep him staying in one place with one person.

But there was no direct order from the Catholic God saying that sex should be some kind of regulated, controlled, formal thing that should be shunned by young people.

Matter of fact, that sounds remarkably like something Elders would do to their society.

1. Find something young people do for fun
2. Realize you never had fun in this way
3. Deem it immoral and get outraged
4. Elbow your way into politics/religious power
5. Ban it

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Gaerteuth:

It’s consistent, but it’s definitely not logical. Mainly because you can whittle it completely down to “God said so.”

We can whittle down everything you believe down eventually to “you said so”.



Hooray!

You > God

Hooray!

 

[Gaerteuth]

We can whittle down everything you believe down eventually to “you said so”.



Hooray!

You > God

Hooray!

What I say makes no difference. The difference between you and me in this is that I am the one NOT speaking from opinion.

Also, I believe you used the incorrect mathematical symbol.
You accidentally said “I am greater than God”

 

[Soren_Itenu]

What I say makes no difference. The difference between you and me in this is that I am the one NOT speaking from opinion.

Also, I believe you used the incorrect mathematical symbol.
You accidentally said “I am greater than God”

He was referring to your own opinion of yourself.

 

[Sillara]

What I say makes no difference. The difference between you and me in this is that I am the one NOT speaking from opinion.

Also, I believe you used the incorrect mathematical symbol.
You accidentally said “I am greater than God”

It was not accidental. He was referring to your own opinion of yourself.

 

[Em_in_FL]

But there was no direct order from the Catholic God saying that sex should be some kind of regulated, controlled, formal thing that should be shunned by young people.

Matter of fact, that sounds remarkably like something Elders would do to their society.

1. Find something young people do for fun
2. Realize you never had fun in this way
3. Deem it immoral and get outraged
4. Elbow your way into politics/religious power
5. Ban it

WHOA… do you really think the Catholic Church teaches that?!?
Pretty sure it’s extremely SEX FRIENDLY!!!
GO GET MARRIED - HAVE LOTS OF SEX! MAKE BABIES! LOVE EACH OTHER!

 

[KellyPalmer]

Gaerteuth – the entire Bible is an outline for the point of life. Once you understand that, you understand why condoms are objectively immoral. You are trying to look at select pieces of The Bible through 21st century eyes. Society has gone so far off track and most people have no idea the reason for life and instead try to fit God into their own personal notions of trying to achieve happiness. This is NOT the message the Bible nor the Church teaches. We can never fully understand God therefore we can fully understand creation and therefore we can never fully understand love – at least not in this life. However, sex is one of the ways we can come closest to realizing what creation and love truly are. When you put a condom on, you are blocking creation, you are blocking love you are blocking God. In the instance of NFP, you are working with creation as God designed the woman’s body to not be fertile during that particular time. He gave us free will however freedom is NOT the right to do whatever we want, it’s the right to do what we ought. Freedom comes from living out life within the natural moral order. Can that be hard for many? Sure! But look at twoangels’s post in the “NFP makes no sense” thread, you can see how NFP is a call to holiness. NFP forced them to address the issues they had that were unrelated to NFP. It forced them to become better people. It forced them to learn more about love. You can’t get that with condoms. The teachings against contraception are such a gift to the children of God! Some people struggle with NFP and refuse to accept the gift and the call to holiness. They refuse to work on the issues that they have that made NFP so difficult. But that’s the call. And it’s a good call. It helps us achieve the reason we are here.

 

[englishredrose]

WHOA… do you really think the Catholic Church teaches that?!?
Pretty sure it’s extremely SEX FRIENDLY!!!
GO GET MARRIED - HAVE LOTS OF SEX! MAKE BABIES! LOVE EACH OTHER!

In the right order I hope as in, LOVE EACH OTHER, GO GET MARRIED, HAVE LOTS OF SEX AND MAKE BABIES.

as I hinted at earlier if this was in plan then there wouldn’t be a need for condoms