How can I be charitable without being a doormat

[EasterJoy]

OK, one more question. If like last week she gets in my face and makes a rude comment and walks away without me having a chance to say anything, should I just stay put, bite my tongue and talk to the teacher after?

Thanks

I can’t walk away. Last week I was sitting in a chair against the wall and I was cornered when she got in my face

Tell the teacher in advance that you don’t want a repeat, and then sit close to the teacher. Maintain a low profile for now. If the teacher witnesses you being abused or hears you saying you are willing to deal with the other student’s complaints after class and doesn’t step in when the other student refuses to back off, then you drag her in…I mean you address the teacher directly and say, “Can you help me out here? This is not the time for this.” It is her job to maintain order in her class. If she doesn’t, quietly gather your things, get up, and leave. If she comes after you, tell her that it needs to be dealt with later after everyone calms down. Say nothing to anyone else. Just drive off. Then calm yourself down and do the next thing after you’ve had time to reflect on the situation.

There is confidence in knowing what you’ll do, I highly recommend that you do some role-playing to decide for yourself how you want to handle bad scenes that might be coming, but let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. Let’s hope that the offender has had time to reflect and has decided to keep a low profile herself, so this can all blow over.

IOW: Keep your cortisol (fight or flight) levels as low as you can. Prepare for the worst, but as part of hoping for the best, and have the serenity of expecting it you can handle anything that comes up. No matter what happens, you’ll do the best if you’ve been breathing.

 

[TEPO]

I can’t walk away. Last week I was sitting in a chair against the wall and I was cornered when she got in my face

Just walk into the classroom behind her and when she’s not looking -give her a firm one-handed lower neck massage… When she turns with delight to see who it is, then open your eyes as widely as you possibly can and stare directly into her eyes… If you can, twitch you’re upper lip a little while she’s looking at you.

It works every time.

(No actually dont do any that… Never mind.)

 

[TEPO]

Oh come on, tonight’s Halloween night…! I had to say something scary.

 

[TEPO]

With respect, this response, which echoes a lot of the responses, seems a bit crazy.

What exactly did you mean by “crazy”…?

(…)

 

[EasterJoy]

Just walk into the classroom behind her and when she’s not looking -give her a firm one-handed lower neck massage… When she turns with delight to see who it is, then open your eyes as widely as you possibly can and stare directly into her eyes… If you can, twitch you’re upper lip a little while she’s looking at you.

It works every time.

(No actually dont do any that… Never mind.)

A caveat with a tinge of “been-there-done-that-seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time”?
(How many hours of community service did that net you?)

 

[camerong]

Just walk into the classroom behind her and when she’s not looking -give her a firm one-handed lower neck massage… When she turns with delight to see who it is, then open your eyes as widely as you possibly can and stare directly into her eyes… If you can, twitch you’re upper lip a little while she’s looking at you.

It works every time.

(No actually dont do any that… Never mind.)

I change my vote to this. What’s more loving than a nice chair massage??

CM, let us know how things turn out. I bet everything will be better than you think, tempers have had time to calm, and surely she feels silly after acting that way in front of everyone.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Just walk into the classroom behind her and when she’s not looking -give her a firm one-handed lower neck massage… When she turns with delight to see who it is, then open your eyes as widely as you possibly can and stare directly into her eyes… If you can, twitch you’re upper lip a little while she’s looking at you.

It works every time.

(No actually dont do any that… Never mind.)

Oh, yeah, that’s a plan…:dts::doh2:

Nice way to get an assault charge and end up in court. Not a good idea.

 

[cmscms]

It is her job to maintain order in her class. If she doesn’t, quietly gather your things, get up, and leave. .

The problem with me leaving is then I miss the class which I don’t want.

However, I did bump into the bible teacher today at church and I asked for a private talk. I told the teacher that I was sorry for th intial behaviour that upset people in the class and I can’t change the past and I would LOVE to say I will NOT do it again but I need to be honest and say I will try my best without any guarantees. The teacher was happy about that.

She also told me she emailed the other lady and this lady recognized that she was out of line. Then the teacher said, ‘This is a Catholic bible study we should be charitable but I am not going to tell anyone what to do whoever gets there first should bet the seat’. Which honestly is the most I can expect from the teacher because of the type of person she is.

When I brought up that I sat beside this lady, the teacher said ‘Well… she was upset that you got in her space. There were tons of chairs behind her. It is like going to a movie theater, if there is someone in the front row and the back row is empty you should sit in the back row even if there are empty seats in the front’

I disagree. If I like to sit in the front row, and there is an empty seat in the front row, I should be able to sit in it. If this lady arrives early, that gives her the right to one seat. Not the seat she is sitting in and the one beside her remain empty. I think I will talk to this lady politely (if I have the opportunity) and say ‘I have been sitting up front for 3 years because I really like to sit upfront. I respect that you like your space. If having an empty seat beside you is important, I promise that if you don’t sit in the front row, I will not sit beside you. However, sitting in the front is very important to me and if there is an empty seat in front, I will be sitting in it’

How does that sound?

CM

 

[underacloud]

This is about seats?

If you want to sit in the front row, get there early enough to take your choice of seats.

If you are not early enough and the only available seat in the front row is next to a person you have a problem with, sit somewhere else. I tend to agree with what your teacher has said. In such a situation, where there is ample seating in other rows, it is common courtesy to take an empty seat elsewhere than to sit next to another person.

If you really need to sit in the front row (eg for vision), you could explain that to the other lady, explaining exactly why you need to sit in the front. Don’t simply tell her that you are going to sit there regardless, explain your reasons. But if the reason is mere preference, why do you think that over-rides the common courtesy that your teacher has explained to you?

 

[epan]

My take on this, is that there are two issues.

1. You did something which offended her. That should be easy to resolve with a conversation.
2. She is violating your personal boundaries. It is possible to handle anger appropriately, and with respect to the other person. She is not doing this.

Since you ask for advice, mine is as follows: Keep the two different issues clear in your own mind. You duty to yourself, is to stand up for your own boundaries, while respecting her boundaries. When she tries to humiliate, verbally abuse, or otherwise bully you, calmly explain that you would like to discuss the issue with her, after class, but that right now is not the right time, because it is during class. How about we discuss this later?

When you do get a chance to discuss it with her, listen to her and respond honestly. Also, don’t let her behavior slide. Call her on it politely, kindly, and firmly. Tell her that you have too much respect for her, and for yourself to engage in inappropriate displays of anger.

 

[maryjk]

It sounds like she needs to grow up.

Sorry. Even in a theater, if there is an empty seat, you can sit there.

When you arrive, sit where you like. If she isn’t happy, she is free to change seats.

 

[cmscms]

This is about seats?

No it is not 100% about seats. However, sitting beside her last week is when she blew her lid at me. The issue I originally did that made her mad is something totally unrelated. I told the teacher I will do my best to stop the behaviour from the original issue.

If you really need to sit in the front row (eg for vision), you could explain that to the other lady, explaining exactly why you need to sit in the front. Don’t simply tell her that you are going to sit there regardless, explain your reasons. But if the reason is mere preference, why do you think that over-rides the common courtesy that your teacher has explained to you?

See and this is where I semi disagree. From my point of view, I have sat in that seat for 3 years. For whatever reason others always preferred to sit at the back of the room. If this lady wants the exact same seat I am use to and she gets there before me, then I will sit somewhere else. However, if she knows I like to sit in front, if it is that important to her to have 2 seats to herself, she can sit somewhere else. I don’t think someone has the right to reserve 2 seats just because they got there early. Especially since this is a small room as it is and if everyone wanted 2 seats, then there would not be enough room for everyone. And the chairs are so close together that sitting behind someone means you have their head in your way and you can not see the front at all.

 

[Bill_7154]

One last thing. The bible teacher told me she just wants to teach the bible and not deal with these issues because we should all be adults. The main reason I respect what she says is because I have know her long enough to feel confident in saying the teacher is one of those people who just doesn’t know how to handle conflict. I also know from experience people who don’t like conflict avoid it like the plague even when it is their responsibility to deal with it.

However, I was talking to my mom about this and told her that I would not try to enlist the teachers help because it would be a waste of time. And my mom made this point: ‘Part of living a Catholic lifestyle is to be charitable in our dealings with others. As a bible study teacher, she should be setting a good example and showing others how to be charitable instead of avoiding the conflict’. What do others think about my mom’s statement?

CM

I’ve never been to a bible study group (yet) but it is my understanding that as a general rule the leader or teacher of a group should exercize some authority over the group. I would include addressing unrulely behavior as part of that. Of course the leader shouldn’t be micro managing everything that is said, but if someone in the middle of the class gives an off topic, loud, angry speech addressing another member I would consider it appropriate for the teacher to intervene in some way to put the class back on topic. I don’t think the teacher should be scolding her so much as simply pointing out that the class should resume focusing on the bible study and it would be better for personal discussions to happen outside of the classroom, so as to not unduely embarrass her (if she is somewhat reasonable she should ‘get the point’ from the teacher taking this sort of approach). I think that it is ‘on you’ to address the woman on a more personal level.

 

[underacloud]

See and this is where I semi disagree. From my point of view, I have sat in that seat for 3 years. For whatever reason others always preferred to sit at the back of the room. If this lady wants the exact same seat I am use to and she gets there before me, then I will sit somewhere else. However, if she knows I like to sit in front, if it is that important to her to have 2 seats to herself, she can sit somewhere else. I don’t think someone has the right to reserve 2 seats just because they got there early. Especially since this is a small room as it is and if everyone wanted 2 seats, then there would not be enough room for everyone. And the chairs are so close together that sitting behind someone means you have their head in your way and you can not see the front at all.

This is quite a complex matter.

The way you described what your teacher said suggested that there were perhaps ample seats and that there is no need to sit next to another person who may prefer some space.

Your description quoted here suggests that it is necessary for people to sit next to each other based on number of seats available, in the front row or wherever. In which case you certainly have a good point.

You’ll just need to excercise your own judgement. Do you want to sit next to someone who is hostile towards you? Is it more important that you sit in the front row or that you avoid possible confrontation? Can you make sure to get there early enough to avoid this issues?

If it were me, I’d just sit somewhere else. But only you can decide what’s best for you.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

Re-wrote my thread as the issues have been revealed.

Has there been any ground rules set by the group prior to the start of Bible Classes?

God Bless
THT

 

[EasterJoy]

The problem with me leaving is then I miss the class which I don’t want.

However, I did bump into the bible teacher today at church and I asked for a private talk. I told the teacher that I was sorry for th intial behaviour that upset people in the class and I can’t change the past and I would LOVE to say I will NOT do it again but I need to be honest and say I will try my best without any guarantees. The teacher was happy about that.

She also told me she emailed the other lady and this lady recognized that she was out of line. Then the teacher said, ‘This is a Catholic bible study we should be charitable but I am not going to tell anyone what to do whoever gets there first should bet the seat’. Which honestly is the most I can expect from the teacher because of the type of person she is.

When I brought up that I sat beside this lady, the teacher said ‘Well… she was upset that you got in her space. There were tons of chairs behind her. It is like going to a movie theater, if there is someone in the front row and the back row is empty you should sit in the back row even if there are empty seats in the front’

I disagree. If I like to sit in the front row, and there is an empty seat in the front row, I should be able to sit in it. If this lady arrives early, that gives her the right to one seat. Not the seat she is sitting in and the one beside her remain empty. I think I will talk to this lady politely (if I have the opportunity) and say ‘I have been sitting up front for 3 years because I really like to sit upfront. I respect that you like your space. If having an empty seat beside you is important, I promise that if you don’t sit in the front row, I will not sit beside you. However, sitting in the front is very important to me and if there is an empty seat in front, I will be sitting in it’

How does that sound?

CM

Catholic Bible study? Oh, for crying out loud. That is what you ought to say. Movie theatres fill up in spots first, but if the show is sold out, everyone sits cheek and jowl and none are the worse for it. Unless you’re 6’4" and don’t realize that you ought not choose a seat right in front of someone who is 5’2", this is a total non-issue. Those who have a compulsive need for more space than their own seat provides can move if they want more of it. If the teacher thinks otherwise, then perhaps half the seats in the classroom ought to be removed, every other one, to protect fragile Catholics from others in the Body of Christ intruding on their space during a public lecture. Heaven forbid we touch another Catholic. How uncharitable that would be.

As for getting up and leaving because you’re being left undefended from someone who is totally out of line, it would be unfortunate, but what do you do when your other choices are between being treated like a doormat and being willing to be disruptive to everyone else in order to get your own way? There are few things for a gracious person with a backbone to do, save to opt out of both. You will have been cheated, but you’ll have refused to cheat anyone else.

Do not negotiate with that woman. Get there early if you can, but sit where you like. If she doesn’t like it, too bad. Just say, “I’m sorry you feel that way. You’re entitled to one seat. If my person is offensive to you, I’m afraid that you’re the one who will have to move. I would never stand by and let you bully anyone else like you’re doing to me now, and I’ve decided that I’m not inclined to let you do it to me again, either.” That’s it. Turn your face toward the teacher and let the matter drop. (Honestly, if I were there, I’d have to sit on my hands not to clap, after the ridiculous little tirade of the week before.)

If she goes ballistic, keep ignoring her and wait for her to either run out of steam or for the teacher to correct her. If she recieves no correction in what you think is a reasonable amount of time, or if you are the one asked to move, get up, leave, and do not come back.

Sometimes, you have to vote with your feet…but let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. Still, if you don’t want to be a doormat, you have to be firm about standing up for yourself, just as you’d stand up for someone else being treated the same way.

 

[cmscms]

Well… I have another update about the situation.

When I saw the bible teacher last Thursday, she told me she was not going to tell people where to sit that we should work that out. So I took that to mean I could sit where I wanted. So when I saw the teacher at church last night, I though it would only be fair to tell her my intentions and if she wanted she could pass that on to the other lady.

So I said ‘I really like sitting up at the front and I if there is an empty seat upfront beside the lady I will sit in it because her getting there early allows her one seat not two’ Well the teacher laughed and after some discussion she said ‘It is only common sense not to do that’. In my mind it is only common courtesy to let people know ahead of time what I will do so that there are no surprises. I then explained that I have no intention of aggravating this person. I will NOT sit beside her intentionally I simply plan to sit upfront and if it means that much to her to not sit beside me, if she sits in the back I will not sit in the back.

Well…I suspect that the teacher does not have very good assertive skills and she is not capable of setting the boundary ‘In my class if there is an empty row, I expect people to sit in the empty row before sitting beside someone’ I suspect she tries to handle things passively by just arguing ‘it is only common sense’

The teacher kept saying ‘this is a Catholic bible study and we should be Catholics’. I bit my tongue but all I could think is ‘Catholics share’

Well… The teacher raised her voices (something I have NEVER seen her do before so it hurts) and said ‘You guys were acting like children and no one else ever acts like that and if you two are going to disrupt the whole class I will ask both of you to leave’. And made another few comments that really made me feel shamed. And even started to put words in my mouth. Then she brought up the other behaviour I had been doing and saying how wrong I was for that. I kind of feel because she has a resentment from the other behaviour she is holding it against me. I have apoligized about the other behaviour and I do intend on making a serious effort to stop it. I just feel it is unfair that it is spilling into the seats.

So, I have decided that if I get there after this lady I will just sit in the back and leave it at that. However… my pain goes deeper.

In my mind, this is a Catholic Bible study teacher and in the 3 years I have know her, she really has never been a compassionate person and I guess I expected more compassion that she has given. And I need to accept she can not give it. And in a way that hurts. I suspect she told the other lady to not get in my face because she wants HER class to go smoothly, not because she believes I deserve respect.

Also, I remember last year when my dad died, at the end of class I asked if we could offer up our prayers for him. She made a somewhat cold statement and we prayed for him and she left it at that. She never said I am sorry for you loss. She knows I am unemployed and made an off colour joke about it a few months ago. When I saw her at church and asked her to stop she said ‘But I though you wanted me to make that joke’. Well… to her credit she stopped but I though how could anyone think I want people to joke about this. Also, a few weeks ago she asked me how the job hunt was going I told her ‘I think it is best not to talk about this’ she replied ‘Well I though you were working’ If she though I was working why would she ask how the job hunt is going.

At the end of that day, I think I can let the whole seat thing go and sit somewhere else. But I am still in pain that someone I though should be a compassionate Catholic isn’t

CM

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

…
In my mind, this is a Catholic Bible study teacher and in the 3 years I have know her, she really has never been a compassionate person and I guess I expected more compassion that she has given. And I need to accept she can not give it. And in a way that hurts. I suspect she told the other lady to not get in my face because she wants HER class to go smoothly, not because she believes I deserve respect.

Also, I remember last year when my dad died, at the end of class I asked if we could offer up our prayers for him. She made a somewhat cold statement and we prayed for him and she left it at that. She never said I am sorry for you loss. She knows I am unemployed and made an off colour joke about it a few months ago. When I saw her at church and asked her to stop she said ‘But I though you wanted me to make that joke’. Well… to her credit she stopped but I though how could anyone think I want people to joke about this. Also, a few weeks ago she asked me how the job hunt was going I told her ‘I think it is best not to talk about this’ she replied ‘Well I though you were working’ If she though I was working why would she ask how the job hunt is going.

At the end of that day, I think I can let the whole seat thing go and sit somewhere else. But I am still in pain that someone I though should be a compassionate Catholic isn’t

CM

I think you are expecting too much of this teacher. She is a flawed person, like obviously we all are. It would be ideal if she took charge about the seating and inappropriate comments from those in class, since she is in a good position to, but likely her gift is not human relations, but simply leading the study. When someone is annoyed at you for not doing something that you are not good at, you feel insecure, and its an impediment to relations.

I had a similar problem with my only brother in town who is in charge of my Mom’s money while I am in charge of my high-need Mom. I have to go to him for needs and unfortunately his ways reminded me of my ex’s (no to everything) and I reacted badly, still traumatized from my ex. But with God’s grace I realized its just his personality/differing ways, and as I have learned to work with what he is (really, simply he says no first-off, but he can be convinced, plus, he has needed to see how I conserve) instead of what he is not, our relationship has improved much. What he is not has become quite clear to me from how we have interacted. I now take that lesson and avoid those things and I have come to actively admire his strengths. I was marveling this morning at how far this relationship has come. I remember a couple years back, asking why I got stuck having the *worst, least helpful *brother in town! Why not one of the other two??? But I do not feel that way now.

I think it will work the same with your teacher and even the other woman in class. You have to accept their shortcomings. Being Catholic does not make us Saints, it means we are sinners who have Extraordinary Graces available, if we are willing to apply them to our sins, and if we are not in adamant denial about them! And people are often in denial for good reason. We all grow at our own rates. Meanwhile you must accept what is. Your teacher is not able to help in this way, and being asked to makes her feel more helpless and hapless. She also is not so good at people skills, from what you say above. Not everyone is! Sometimes their heart is right, but you would never know by their actions/words, which certainly appear to say otherwise.

As to this other offending woman in class, some day in heaven you will see her entire life and then you will understand all her motivations. Your heart might about break when you see the pain of life inflicted on her that naturally made her so belligerent and unreasonable. You might in fact then long to return to this very time, only so that you could say: “Oh my goodness, dear poor woman! Would you like to sit here, on my lap?? Please come!”

 

[TheRealJuliane]

As to this other offending woman in class, some day in heaven you will see her entire life and then you will understand all her motivations. Your heart might about break when you see the pain of life inflicted on her that naturally made her so belligerent and unreasonable. You might in fact then long to return to this very time, only so that you could say: “Oh my goodness, dear poor woman! Would you like to sit here, on my lap?? Please come!”

Really? Can we assume that 1) we ourselves are going to make it to Heaven and 2) that woman will also be there? And I have never heard that we will be able to see others’ earthly lives when we are in Heaven. If you can point me toward Scripture or the CCC, I’d appreciate it.

CMS, I am going to be frank here. Please do not be offended. Your comment to your teacher that you intended to sit next to the woman who is bothering you could be seen as you being deliberately aggressive or belligerent. If I’m your teacher, I’m thinking that YOU are more of the problem and I might ask you to leave the class. You already know she doesn’t handle confrontation well and yet, you told her that you intend to carry the fight on by sitting next to the other woman “just because.”

Is all this drama really worth it? To me, it wouldn’t be, but I guess everyone is different. Unless this teacher is the best Bible teacher on the planet, I’d already have been out of there long before now. It sounds increasingly like middle school…

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Really? Can we assume that 1) we ourselves are going to make it to Heaven and 2) that woman will also be there? And I have never heard that we will be able to see others’ earthly lives when we are in Heaven. If you can point me toward Scripture or the CCC, I’d appreciate it…

I am not an assumption about God’s judgement here. I am Catholic, yes, so I do believe in the reality of Hell. I am simply making a polite and reasonable assumption, that CM and her friends mentioned have hearts pointed towards Heaven (else wise why would they be in Bible study and on this forum) and will likely get there straightaway or instead like the vast majority of us, after a stay in Purgatory where we go to learn the lessons of love that we did not learn on earth, before we face God who is All Love.

If you want a theological argument on that, better take it to Apologetics forum. I did not bring it up for argument. But do consider the Saints in Heaven. Do you not think that from where they are in Eternity they cannot see our entire lives and understand the motivations behind our dysfunctions? Someday in Heaven (by the Grace of God) we will also. And we will understand why all the people in our lives did the things they did, and we will love them as Christ loves them, because of His Grace. Which is amazing!!!