How can I be charitable without being a doormat

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CMS, I am going to be frank here. Please do not be offended. Your comment to your teacher that you intended to sit next to the woman who is bothering you could be seen as you being deliberately aggressive or belligerent. If I’m your teacher, I’m thinking that YOU are more of the problem and I might ask you to leave the class. You already know she doesn’t handle confrontation well and yet, you told her that you intend to carry the fight on by sitting next to the other woman “just because.”

No I am not offended and I am grateful for your honesty. You actually bring up a good point not only about this situation but also about other similar conflicts in my life.

I am the type of person who believes in being upfront with others. So often when I set a boundary, in my mind I am letting people know the ‘score’. For example if you choose to do this, I will choose to do that’ It has in the past not gone on over too well. It has ruffled a lot of feathers and I think that is another issue

For, when the teacher said ‘I am not going to tell people where to sit’, I took that to mean it was up to me and this girl to work it out and I let my intentions known that I will sit upfront but if she chooses to sit somewhere else I would not sit beside her. In my mind that was fair because the teacher is the one who said she wasn’t going to tell people where to sit. And if anything, I am glad I was upfront because as much as the teacher got mad at me the last time we spoke, I at least got to know that it will not go over well and shouldn’t do it. That is much better than going to bible study, sitting beside the lady and having another scene.

So I guess my questions is: How could I have said it in a way that would not upset the teacher but still I could get to the bottom of it?

CM

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

No I am not offended and I am grateful for your honesty. You actually bring up a good point not only about this situation but also about other similar conflicts in my life.

I am the type of person who believes in being upfront with others. So often when I set a boundary, in my mind I am letting people know the ‘score’. For example if you choose to do this, I will choose to do that’ It has in the past not gone on over too well. It has ruffled a lot of feathers and I think that is another issue

For, when the teacher said ‘I am not going to tell people where to sit’, I took that to mean it was up to me and this girl to work it out and I let my intentions known that I will sit upfront but if she chooses to sit somewhere else I would not sit beside her. In my mind that was fair because the teacher is the one who said she wasn’t going to tell people where to sit. And if anything, I am glad I was upfront because as much as the teacher got mad at me the last time we spoke, I at least got to know that it will not go over well and shouldn’t do it. That is much better than going to bible study, sitting beside the lady and having another scene.

So I guess my questions is: How could I have said it in a way that would not upset the teacher but still I could get to the bottom of it?

CM

CMS, I was thinking along the lines of what Julianne said, that she may have taken your statement as a hostile warning, rather than the way you meant it, which was just trying to keep her informed. I probably wouldn’t have said anything to the teacher ahead of time either, but if I were to talk to her about the situation again, I’d keep in mind that tone of voice means a lot, and that she doesn’t understand your motivations like you do. Also, while you are hoping for an ally in this situation, she is looking at it from the perspective of “what is going to make my class run the most smoothly,” and since she doesn’t have the assertiveness to be the thing that makes her class run smoothly, then she is not going to be happy about you choosing fairness over diffusing the situation.

Ultimately, at this point, it is sounding like a fight for a seat in the front row. While I understand it is important to you, and to the other person, to the teacher, it sounds like childish bickering. If I were the teacher, I might tell the other person that if she wants an extra seat to herself, she’ll need to sit in a less coveted spot. But I also would say that I am not going to get involved in two grownups fighting over which chair they get to sit in. To be fair, the teacher should have spoken to the other woman the first time she disrupted the class, and told her that SHE would not be welcome back if she disrupted it again. But that didn’t happen, so I think you just have to accept that fairness is not going to be supported in this class.

The only way I could imagine talking to the teacher about it would be to start out with, “I very much do NOT want to disrupt the class, and I don’t want to make your job harder on you. But sitting in the front row is really important to me because _____ and when I have to sit in the back, I get a lot less out of the class because ____. I don’t want a fight, I just want to be able to use the seats in the front row if there are any available.” The thing is, your reason for wanting the front row seat is going to have to be pretty good for the teacher to feel sympathetic towards your plan.

One thing - you keep mentioning the front row and the back. Is there a second row? How big is this room that the back is so much worse than the front? Isn’t there an in-between? I agree that I wouldn’t want someone else’s bad attitude to push me to the back of the room, but the second row in most classrooms is a pretty good spot. I have the impression that you are speaking in extremes, perhaps to get your point across, but perhaps also because you are trying to emphasize the unfairness of it all. Are you caught up too much in the unfairness of her treatment of you that you aren’t letting yourself see a compromise? Can’t you just settle for being close to the front, and not IN the front without the situation being all that bad as being way in the back?

 

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CMS, I was thinking along the lines of what Julianne said, that she may have taken your statement as a hostile warning, rather than the way you meant it, which was just trying to keep her informed. I probably wouldn’t have said anything to the teacher ahead of time either, but if I were to talk to her about the situation again, I’d keep in mind that tone of voice means a lot, and that she doesn’t understand your motivations like you do.

ThyKingdom thank you for your kind reply. I appreciate your honesty and tact. And yes I NOW see how it was tooken as a hostile warning instead of how I meant it. But to be honest, as much as I need to be mindful of my tone of voice, I also think that someone with Dale Carnegy skills perfected would not have gotten through to her. She just laughed at how it is common sense. I suspect it is her lack of assertiveness that makes her insist it is common sense and she won’t budge from it. And since it is her class there is no motive for her to budge.

Also, while you are hoping for an ally in this situation, she is looking at it from the perspective of “what is going to make my class run the most smoothly,” and since she doesn’t have the assertiveness to be the thing that makes her class run smoothly, then she is not going to be happy about you choosing fairness over diffusing the situation.

And Yes, I was hoping for an ally. I do feel pathetically alone being unemployeed and having no one to talk to about it (whole other thread) so I was hoping for support in other areas of my life which perhaps were out of proportion for what the situation is

Ultimately, at this point, it is sounding like a fight for a seat in the front row. While I understand it is important to you, and to the other person, to the teacher, it sounds like childish bickering. If I were the teacher, I might tell the other person that if she wants an extra seat to herself, she’ll need to sit in a less coveted spot. But I also would say that I am not going to get involved in two grownups fighting over which chair they get to sit in. To be fair, the teacher should have spoken to the other woman the first time she disrupted the class, and told her that SHE would not be welcome back if she disrupted it again. But that didn’t happen, so I think you just have to accept that fairness is not going to be supported in this class.

Agreed, at this point I think it is best if she gets there first for me to sit somewhere else. It is more important for me to go to the study than to get the front seat

The only way I could imagine talking to the teacher about it would be to start out with, “I very much do NOT want to disrupt the class, and I don’t want to make your job harder on you. But sitting in the front row is really important to me because _____ and when I have to sit in the back, I get a lot less out of the class because ____. I don’t want a fight, I just want to be able to use the seats in the front row if there are any available.” The thing is, your reason for wanting the front row seat is going to have to be pretty good for the teacher to feel sympathetic towards your plan.

I hate to say this but I am at the point I think the teacher is just one of those people who can not handle conflict in the slightess and it would be useless to even try to get her to see my point. I think this is just one of those things I need to let go.

One thing - you keep mentioning the front row and the back. Is there a second row? How big is this room that the back is so much worse than the front? Isn’t there an in-between? I agree that I wouldn’t want someone else’s bad attitude to push me to the back of the room, but the second row in most classrooms is a pretty good spot. I have the impression that you are speaking in extremes, perhaps to get your point across, but perhaps also because you are trying to emphasize the unfairness of it all.

Trust me, it is a bad room. Not sitting in the front row equates to a bad seat, I think if she gets there first I will just have to live with it.

Are you caught up too much in the unfairness of her treatment of you that you aren’t letting yourself see a compromise? Can’t you just settle for being close to the front, and not IN the front without the situation being all that bad as being way in the back?

I do think I am being caught in the massive humiliation and pain of it all. I HONESTLY did not expect that lady to blow up at me the second I sat down. Nor did I expect the teacher to cover her mouth as she laughed. And when I went to the teacher after class to ask about it, the teacher told me the reason she did that was because they had a discussion before I got there about a totally different behaviour I was doing that was annoying people. I NEVER would have suspected her motive for blowing up at me over the seats had anything to do with the other behaviour. And now that the teacher explained how others felt about the other behaviour, I do see how I was wrong there and my pride has had a blow. No one likes to be confronted but to have it come in such a humiliating way really did upset me.

Right now, I am just really embarrassed and humiliated. I don’t believe that if I stop the inital behaviour I will be forgiven. The way the teacher spoke about it, I can’t help but think these people all hate me

CM

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I do think I am being caught in the massive humiliation and pain of it all. I HONESTLY did not expect that lady to blow up at me the second I sat down. Nor did I expect the teacher to cover her mouth as she laughed. And when I went to the teacher after class to ask about it, the teacher told me the reason she did that was because they had a discussion before I got there about a totally different behaviour I was doing that was annoying people. I NEVER would have suspected her motive for blowing up at me over the seats had anything to do with the other behaviour. And now that the teacher explained how others felt about the other behaviour, I do see how I was wrong there and my pride has had a blow. No one likes to be confronted but to have it come in such a humiliating way really did upset me.

Right now, I am just really embarrassed and humiliated. I don’t believe that if I stop the inital behaviour I will be forgiven. The way the teacher spoke about it, I can’t help but think these people all hate me

I feel your pain. And it really stinks that you were humiliated like that. But you have to try to let the embarrassment go too. You already know that the teacher is immature, and the other woman is mean. They have their own issues, and the fact that they might not forgive your original offense is their own problem, not yours. If you actually offended, insulted, or hurt someone, then they deserve an apology. If you were simply were behaving in an annoying way, then you don’t need to apologize. Just toning “it” down (whatever “it” is), and continuing on from this point forward is all you can do. A reasonable person will get over the annoying behavior and move on without disliking you. A reasonable Christian will forgive you if you’ve given a sincere apology for offending, insulting, or hurting them. I imagine that most of the people in this class are reasonable people, and they probably are none too impressed by the other woman. They probably realize that her bad behavior is not a result of or justified by something annoying that you did before. I’m sure they just want to get on with their class. Remember that THEY aren’t thinking about this situation all the time like you are. They aren’t dwelling on it. They don’t hate you.

 

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Another update. I went to the bible study and the other lasy didn’t even show up. So on that front, nothing happened.

I made a VERY conscious effort to not do the originally behaviour that had annoyed people. It was HARD but I managed to not do it. Hopefully it will get easier

CM

 

[underacloud]

Well…I suspect that the teacher does not have very good assertive skills and she is not capable of setting the boundary ‘In my class if there is an empty row, I expect people to sit in the empty row before sitting beside someone’ I suspect she tries to handle things passively by just arguing ‘it is only common sense’

The teacher is being assertive and setting a boundary…but it is a boundary for you. You should respect your teachers instructions in this regard. You wanted your teacher to resolve this issue, and she has, so respect that decision.

Based on your side of the story, it seems that the other lady spoke to you inappropriately. But you seem to have made the environment unpleasant for her too, so you are both at fault. I hope the other lady returns so you can both learn from this and grow. Regardless of who is “in the right”, it is always a shame when our behaviours upset others. It is especially a shame when it is the context of Catholic bible study. That is what your teacher is trying to point out when she says it is a Catholic bible study and “we should be Catholics”.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Another update. I went to the bible study and the other lasy didn’t even show up. So on that front, nothing happened.

I made a VERY conscious effort to not do the originally behaviour that had annoyed people. It was HARD but I managed to not do it. Hopefully it will get easier

CM

Good for you for your successful effort! And phew! that this other woman didn’t come today. Maybe SHE felt embarrassed by her behavior? Maybe she also spoke privately to the teacher, and was rebuked by the teacher? (perhaps the teacher is trying to be confidential?) Or maybe she was just out of town or sick or something. Either way, accept this little grace that you had the chance to face the class without facing the other person as a consolation. Keep going, it will get better from here…

 

[cmscms]

The teacher is being assertive and setting a boundary…but it is a boundary for you. You should respect your teachers instructions in this regard. You wanted your teacher to resolve this issue, and she has, so respect that decision.

So if I understand what you are trying to point out is the teacher did set a boundary but I didn’t hear it that way because I didn’t realize that is the way some people go about it? I am trying to learn so please let me know if I understand

Based on your side of the story, it seems that the other lady spoke to you inappropriately. But you seem to have made the environment unpleasant for her too, so you are both at fault.

Actually it is in a different order. I did something to make it unpleasant for her (which I did not realize) and that is why she blew up at me. That is why when I went last night, I made a conscious effort to not do the behaviour that originally upset her even though she was not there

I hope the other lady returns so you can both learn from this and grow. Regardless of who is “in the right”, it is always a shame when our behaviours upset others. It is especially a shame when it is the context of Catholic bible study. That is what your teacher is trying to point out when she says it is a Catholic bible study and “we should be Catholics”.

Yes, I think she should come back. But I have no way of contacting her so unless she comes back, I will not see her again

 

[underacloud]

So if I understand what you are trying to point out is the teacher did set a boundary but I didn’t hear it that way because I didn’t realize that is the way some people go about it? I am trying to learn so please let me know if I understand

I think perhaps you didn’t hear it because you disagree with the boundary that the teacher was trying to set. You don’t think it’s fair (to sit in another row even thought there is a free seat in the front) and so you don’t think it’s a justifiable boundary.

I can understand that. But you tried to get your teacher to intervene, and she did. She asked you to sit somewhere else (depending on seatign available), and (if I recall correctly) she contacted the other lady to try to resolve the issue.

Perhaps you teacher didn’t set the boundary as a formal rule, which is what you mean when you say you didn’t realize that’s how some people go about it? I still think, based on what you’ve said, that it was quite clear.