How can I explain salvation and disprove double predestination?

[Tennis77]

I am having trouble convincing a friend that predestination - God choosing some people that get to go to heaven (before they are even born) and basically sending the rest to hell - is not how salvation works. Basically they say that how you act and behave on earth has no influence on whether you are saved or not.

I guess that there may be two ways to disprove this idea of (I think the correct term is actually double predestination). One would be to explain salvation, and another would be to prove that double predestination is Biblically incorrect. Unfortunately, I don’t know many verses in Scripture that we use to explain salvation. If you could provide some and maybe even clarify how salvation works I would be very grateful. I’m not sure if you have ever encountered someone who believed in double predestination before and know how to explain that it is incorrect?

When I try to say that it is wrong, one of the arguments I receive is that everyone is a sinner and deserves to go to hell and it seems like they think that God doesn’t want us to be in heaven with Him, at least that’s how it comes across to me. What I cannot grasp about that viewpoint is why some people are randomly chosen for no reason over others, and why God would send people, who may very well be firm, devout believers, to hell. When I try to use Matthew 25:31-46 as an example of earthly actions affecting one’s salvation, they say that those people were already saved beforehand. But what about people who choose to do those things Jesus commanded that aren’t predestined to heaven? Everyone has the free will to choose to follow Christ, so why would only some people, for no reason, be chosen to go to heaven while others simply go to hell?

It almost seems that double predestination is a way to get rid of accountability for actions. If you can sin all you want and break all 10 commandments each day and never give it a second thought yet still be chose to be saved, then there is absolutely no incentive to do good, to follow God’s commandments.

I appreciate your time in helping me

 

[MarcoPolo]

they say that those people were already saved beforehand

Okay, they are arguing for “limited atonement” which is related to double predestination. They can “say” the people in Matt. 25 “were already saved,” but such a claim is not in the text. You might reply simply by pointing that out.

I’m sure you will get some excellent answers, but I’ll just provide some Scriptural stuff I’ve assembled specifically on this subject, responding to some of the verses they use to teach limited atonement.

Debunking the doctrine of “Limited Atonement”
Public Debate: Did Christ redeem all mankind?

Let me just share one passage, often forgotten, that I think is powerful against the idea of limited atonement:*Hebrews 2:9-17
9But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one. 10For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12saying, “I will proclaim thy name to my brethren, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee.” 13And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Here am I, and the children God has given me.” 14Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. 16For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham. 17Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.*If you read through this passage, it tells us that Christ became human to make expiation on behalf of humans. He “shares flesh and blood.” The Calvinist who argues that Christ didn’t make ransom for some people is to essentially call those people inhuman, because Christ made expiation for the “people” who “share his flesh and blood.”

 

[Tennis77]

So limited atonement is close to the same as double predestination? In double predestination, some people don’t even get the option of accepting God’s grace through Christ’s sacrifice and are damned from the beginning no matter what. Basically Chirst died for some people but not them, so they automatically go to hell.

Maybe double predestination is the fact that some people are damned to hell no matter what and limited atonement explains the “rationale” behind double predestination in that Christ didn’t die for some people. Is this second paragraph correct? Feel free to correct me if not.

Thanks for the link to your paper I will read through the rest of it as soon as I can!

 

[po18guy]

Ask your friend if they believe the Letter to the Romans (they probably do). Tell them that the same author wrote this:

1 Timothy 2:4
New International Version (NIV)
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

God clearly, from the fundamentalist’s own bible, wants all to be saved.

And Luke wrote this:

Luke 7:30
New International Version (NIV)
30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

They exercised their free will against God’s perfect will.

Pretty much destroys the argument. But, do not expect your friend to accept this, because pastor is probably a really cool guy and seems to know all about this stuff.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Maybe double predestination is the fact that some people are damned to hell no matter what and limited atonement explains the “rationale” behind double predestination in that Christ didn’t die for some people. Is this second paragraph correct? Feel free to correct me if not.

Correct - they believe Christ only “died for some” and that those he “passed over” will not come to Christ because they are deprived of his grace. Calvinists/Reformed sometimes don’t like the term “double predestination” but since God deprives them of grace, even if that is a “passive” thing, those persons are essentially left to be doomed to hell. I think it was Cardinal Journet who said something like someone who is deprived of grace would have a grievance against God upon his/her death, for that soul will be able to claim he/she is being condemned for not performing the impossible.

As a Catholic, we can agree that Christ’s sacrifice is, in the final order, only appropriated to those who are saved. But that does not mean that the damned never were granted to grace to say yes to God. In other words, Christ made ransom for all the “slaves” to sin, but some of those slaves renounced the freedom.

 

[Tennis77]

well since I am trying to persuade a protestant, my best tool to explain the truth is to prove that this is how salvation works and that predestination simply is not true. I will continue to look through your 20 page paper, but feel free to leave verses of scripture that explain that Christ died that all MIGHT be saved (John 3:18) and/or further disprove limited atonement. Thank you.

 

[MarcoPolo]

well since I am trying to persuade a protestant, my best tool to explain the truth is to prove that this is how salvation works and that predestination simply is not true. I will continue to look through your 20 page paper, but feel free to leave verses of scripture that explain that Christ died that all MIGHT be saved (John 3:18) and/or further disprove limited atonement. Thank you.

Here’s just a small sampling. There really is so much in Scripture.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved…

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this [end] we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is [the] Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2 He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son [as] Savior of the world.

John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard [Him] and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: [As] I live,' says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Romans 11:32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God our Saviour hath appeared to all men

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Matthew 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Romans 5:6,18 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

2 Corinthians 5 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again…19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation…6:1 Working together with Him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.