How can I get past incongruence in my leaders and authority figures?

[Nononony]

Preface: I have another question which is growing out of my posts from over the weekend. I’m not trying to cause trouble. This is my whole, unedited truth. It will probably be uncomfortable.

I’ll be completely upfront. This weekend I decided to leave Catholicism. (That’s what the posts were about) I know that can be put down to a sin of pride. And yes, I have a problem with authority. However, in reflection upon myself I had to butt heads with WHY I have that problem. My Catholic examples have often said one thing and done another when it came to matters of faith.

I’ve been Catholic all my life and have seen many things covered up and swept under rugs in order to keep up appearances. We’re talking sex things, new age things, shady business dealings, affairs, abuse. When I would bring it up, I would be admonished. And told to stop making things up. And asked why I wanted to hurt people. And reminded that I wasn’t perfect and to judge not…

But I wasn’t making it up.

I have worked with priests and nuns who do reiki, the enneagram, hypnosis. One priest sometimes uses a hypnosis technique during important board meetings.

I know of one member of the clergy who drinks too much and once blurted out that he “acts as a single man” while on vacation.

The priest who did my confirmation classes had an affair with the mother of a schoolmate. She divorced and they married.

I had a priest confide that reincarnation might be right, we just don’t talk about it… and a Catholic counselor tell me straight up that it didn’t matter if I believed in it because the Gnostics did.

I worked at a Catholic college that was one of the most abusive and dysfunctional workplaces I’ve ever encountered.

And In school, something quite scandalous happened to a number of the girls, and several of us told our parents, who responded that we were wrong and it wasn’t happening. (But it was, I know a victim first hand.) Then suddenly the accused person was gone and we all were given a serious tongue lashing if it was brought up. Charges were later filed by a member of another parish and my mother was mad at the victim for “ruining the priest’s life.”

It is easy to say that children don’t have a full picture, but as an adult I have watched this issue unfold yet again in the same school system… and this time the parent of the child kept pursuing the issue and was hit with a lawsuit to silence them. They totally destroyed her reputation to keep her quiet. This person has since left the church, and the school principal, priest, and other parents involved have also left the area.

I work very hard to live correctly, but I’ve seen so much “do what I say, not as I do” in my years that I’m having a very difficult time making sense of it all. Is it necessary to follow the rules or is it not?!?

 

[Nononony]

I’ve done copious forgiveness work, work on my own issues, and I know the answer is not to follow humans, but to follow God’s word… so I’ve tried to ignore it and just be Catholic… but the laws of the church were handed from God and interpreted by humans who of course claim to be divinely inspired… but with so many instances of my own leaders being shown to not be what they claim, and now higher level leaders being shown to not be what they claim through scandal… how can I be confident that the long-ago leaders were what they claimed? How do I know that story they tell about reincarnation being removed from the bible didn’t happen? The like about man being appointed to die once doesn’t do it for me… how do I now any of it is true?

I’ve considered Pacal’s wager… but it seems like an equal risk to live my whole life telling a giant lie. I really don’t know what to do about it.

That is my honest problem. What can be done about that? I’m serious. I have total faith in God; I have no faith in men who say they are speaking on his behalf. I know it won’t be better in any other church because this problem is everywhere but I’m an introvert so lack of community doesn’t bother me, I have my circle. I would like to hear from others who have overcome this issue of trust. Who have been where I am and have found a way or a reason to trust…

 

[umamibella]

These examples you list are people not living by the law of God. They are human and can fall for the temptation of going the wrong way, commiting sin and crime.

Is it necessary to follow the rules or is it not?!?

It is necessary to follow the rule of God and of Catholicism.

I worked at a Catholic college that was one of the most abusive and dysfunctional workplaces I’ve ever encountered.

I have worked in secular workplaces that are abusive and dysfunctional. This is the result of people, not of God. We all have free will.
In regard to the sex abuse crimes, where I live, in Victoria, the Church says it happened and those responsible who are alive are facing their punishment.
Do as God does , do as Jesus does. Dont do as the secular world does where people fall into temptation.

You dont have to live a giant lie, just discern what is good and holy and what is not amongst all the people God created. Thats everyone.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

If it were me, I would focus on Catholic theology and philosophy (the earlier sources the better), and cling to the sacraments.

Maybe this is your holy discontent.
You have the right to call out bad behavior. You have the obligation to report crime.

We’re not required to give the nod and go-ahead to sinful behavior.

 

[Aulef]

Look for a Traditional apostolate. Abuses like the ones you described are rare to none there.

I will pray that you don’t leave the Church. Just as the Heaven cheers up when someone converts, Heaven cries when someone apostates…

 

[Nononony]

Traditional apostolate

Hi, could you say a little more about this please? I am trying to google it, but I’m still not understanding exactly what it means. Is it a group? A type of parish? A place…?

Thank you.

 

[Nononony]

Maybe this is your holy discontent.
You have the right to call out bad behavior. You have the obligation to report crime.

That is how I feel, but oh the abuse when I do it… the constant turning of the spotlight off of the matter at hand to my personal issues and faults about put me in the grave. I’m learning to spot that behavior now, set boundaries, and stand by them. But for a long time I thought I was a terrible person.

Anyway, I don’t know much of anything about the early church so I don’t know what to read or even where to start. If you have some suggestions of a good place to start I would appreciate it. I honestly want to figure this out, and agree that looking at the root thoughts would be more productive than battling with ideas that have been watered down and skewed throughout thousands of years.

Thank you.

 

[1ke]

My Catholic examples have often said one thing and done another when it came to matters of faith.

Welcome to the human race.

It’s called sin. We all sin. Parents, teachers, churchmen, politicians— people in positions of authority and leadership are going to let us down because we have expectations of perfection and they can never meet them.

We look up to them, we trust them, and yes when they break that trust it can be difficult.

Is it necessary to follow the rules or is it not?!?

We will all stand before God on judgment day.

The Church is holy, even when individuals fall far short of holiness.

 

[Nononony]

people in positions of authority and leadership are going to let us down because we have expectations of perfection and they can never meet them.

Yes, I feel this. I actually did a little study into Buddhism and wrestled with this idea of my expectations of others being the problem. It is a compelling idea and changed my life for the better. Expectations are such a circular issue because we all have them and are often unable or unaware that we should express them.

Anyway, this issue of trust in human authority has led me to act as my own authority figure for a long time, only checking myself against God and conscience instead of what “people” say. But I can see there is danger there because we don’t always see ourselves accurately and so I have been trying to find a way back to having an outside human authority that won’t disappoint… but it’s obviously impossible because we all disappoint eachother on the regular.

Do you think it’s possible to be your own moral authority if you have a well cultivated relationship with God and steep your actions in the Commandments, Beatitudes and the like?

Sorry, I know that’s a heavy question and I’m kind of just speaking my thoughts over here so feel no obligation to reply to it. However if you do have thoughts I’d love to hear them.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Irishmom2]

OP, you need to learn how to separate the Catholic Church and what it believes and teaches from the people in it. We are all sinners.The examples you gave of “priests behaving badly” are priests that are sinning. They are not living out their vocation in a positive way. Does that change anything about what Catholics believe about the Eucharist, or the sacraments, or the richness of the faith?

No, it does not. Do not worry about their sins. They will have to answer for them to God alone. Just do your best to be Catholic. It’s a process of learning and practicing to bring us closer to God in our own lives.

 

[OddBird]

But I can see there is danger there because we don’t always see ourselves accurately and so I have been trying to find a way back to having an outside human authority that won’t disappoint… but it’s obviously impossible because we all disappoint eachother on the regular.

There are two distinct levels here : the Church as a collective Body and the deposit of the faith She was given, and which you may trust unreservedly; and the individual people who make up the Church, who are all sinners and are all going to disappoint sooner or later.

 

[Gab123]

Is it necessary to follow the rules or is it not?!?

Understand that there were, are, and always will be all sorts of liars, adulterers, thieves, murderers, perverts and traitors among both the clergy and the laity, beginning with Judas whom Christ personally chose to be an apostle. The Church will always teach the truth regardless of the sinfulness of some of its members. And Jesus Christ Himself said there would always be weeds and scandals, but that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) thus the fact that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution on the planet despite all of the efforts to destroy it from without and from within, is a testament to its divine origin, fulfilling the promise of Christ. Among the holy and those striving for holiness, will always be the bad.

As for sex abuse in the Church, this is only tiny percentage of priests, and the numbers are higher in other organizations. Protestant and evangelical groups have their own scandals too, for example: http://stopbaptistpredators.org

The devil hates the Church, thus Satan specifically adapts himself to whom ever he is trying to tempt and mislead; obviously is going to slander the Church and point out everyone’s sins to lead people away from the faith and the sacraments. What do you expect? The devil is tricky.
Now imagine if everyone would judge the Church based on your entire life and all the things you have done and confessed. Would others be scandalized?

Furthermore, as followers of Jesus Christ, we must do what Christ did, meaning, we must pray and sacrifice for the conversion of others. Here is Fr. John A Hardon S.J. speaking on this:

 

[MNathaniel]

Hi @Nononony,

What helps me is the Word of God Himself.

Jesus tells and lives through many stories about supplicants who have to fight past otherwise legitimate authority figures to obtain justice or access to him.

He doesn’t claim that existing authorities don’t have authority. And he still established his Church with authority figures. And he still tells us to approach him through them.

It’s a life lived in the working-out. I don’t think it’s a question of a quick and easy answer answer for the mind — you already technically know the ‘mind’ answers. “The Church is more than her individual members.” “Don’t leave Peter because of Judas.”

Actually living this out requires a personal relationship with God. In my experience. Living with that tension, and navigating the darkness without falling away into it, requires clinging to God by the hand. I don’t know if it ever becomes ‘easy’… at least not until we accept that it never will be and we lean totally on God as our guide, trusting Him to help us thread the needles that can otherwise seem impossible (like staying in the Church even when we can’t see how).

From previous comments you’ve made it sounds like you may have a fairly active prayer life in terms of spontaneous conversational prayer with God (do I have that right?) and that’s good.

What I would personally suggest for you are two things:

1. Lectio Divina on the concrete daily gospel readings (found through an app like iBreviary, if you don’t have a physical copy of the scheduled readings). Or if a different reading each day seems too much for you, Lectio Divina each day on the upcoming Sunday’s gospel reading.
2. If possible (I know, Covid), go to adoration. Sit in front of Jesus in the Eucharist.

I know that I’ve been recently finding a lot of comfort in Lectio Divina. God’s Word always has some relevant guidance for me, every day. And it’s important to hear and be shaped by His Word coming from the clear ‘outside’, not just my own intuitions or internal prayer life. Being immersed in the concreteness of God’s recorded Word is stabilizing; it helps us know Him better and remember things we’d otherwise forget. It’s also a living Word, always relevant.

 

[Aulef]

Sure.

They are apostolates where priests celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass and administer the Sacrements using the Traditional rites. Furthermore, they use mostly Catechisms such as Council of Trent, Pope Saint Pius X, and Baltimore to guide the laity.

Besides, it is a good sign when the apostolate promotes real Catholic medation and true Catholic readings such as life of saints, theology, good philosophy, ascetic, mystics and morality.

In the US, I think FSSP and ICTK are the most common. There is also the FSSPX, but beware of its sedevacantists members. If you happen to find one of them, be careful and try to focus only on attending Mass and going to Confession if needed. Lastly, I think there are independent priests who have authorization from the local Bishop to celebrate Traditional Mass. You could look for them as well.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

constant turning of the spotlight off of the matter at hand to my personal issues and faults about put me in the grave.

Do you have personal issues that are obvious and interfere with day to day existence?
In broad strokes, if you get along with most folks, the nay.sayers are probably just ordinary people with whom you conflict with.
But if most of the people in your life have serious objections to you, then the problem is prolly you.
Maybe it’s your style, maybe it’s your substance, but you need to start there.

 

[Nononony]

Do you have personal issues that are obvious and interfere with day to day existence?
In broad strokes, if you get along with most folks, the nay.sayers are probably just ordinary people with whom you conflict with.
But if most of the people in your life have serious objections to you, then the problem is prolly you.
Maybe it’s your style, maybe it’s your substance, but you need to start there.

This is a good question. I had a very mentally and emotionally abusive childhood which caused a lot of problems. I had some patterns of communication which I needed to un-learn as a result of that, however I’ve worked hard and I’d say I have a good handle on them now, as would the people in my life. There’s pretty much no conflict in my everyday life and I’ve only encountered one person in the last 20 years with whom I simply couldn’t relate. That was a boss who openly admitted to being incapable of empathy and I had to leave that job because of it. I still know people working there and that person is causing many problems for the company.

The general view of others in my life is that I’m too hard on myself. It stems from my childhood relationship with my mother and it’s a problem I work on daily.

 

[Annie]

I worked at a Catholic college that was one of the most abusive and dysfunctional workplaces I’ve ever encountered.

So agree!!! I too worked for a Catholic institution which turned out to be like this–you are not alone!

I think that part of the problem is that we expect Catholic people and institutions to be better, or even perfect, but they are not. Unfortunately.

But maybe all this is happening because of a lack of prayer for those who end up falling into temptation…

mad at the victim for “ruining the priest’s life.”

It is so crazy-makingly bad when this happens. A similar thing happened at a public school in my area and the situation got so bad for the girl that it got in the newspapers.

And people wonder why victims are wary or reporting.

I work very hard to live correctly, but I’ve seen so much “do what I say, not as I do” in my years that I’m having a very difficult time making sense of it all. Is it necessary to follow the rules or is it not?!?

I wonder if some people might not be more sensitive to this sort of thing than other people are? Because I go nuts over these types of situations, and other people are much more blasé. I feel like shouting at them and shaking them and saying, Look at that!

Anyway, as I said before (I think), the “rules” we should follow are like helps to us in terms of caring for our souls.

My car’s owners manual says how often to change the oil. I don’t have to follow those guidelines, just as I do not have to go to Sunday Mass, but if I don’t change the oil that frequently, my car will not be as good as it could be and may even freeze up somehow so that the engine is ruined completely, right?

But consider the rules of the Church: attend Mass, etc., and then these other “rules” like don’t make waves, don’t point out evil, don’t believe bad things about priests, do as I say not as I do, etc.

Look at the source: Jesus? Or the administration of some institution? Look at the aim: to help get people to Heaven, or to help maintain the image of the institution? To help you and others to be holier or to preserve an evil? And who benefits from the rule?

In this way, you can learn which are the rules that come from God and which are the rules that are from an enemy (whether supernatural like the devil, or from the flesh or from the world).

Yes, we will have suffering, but it is still wrong to inflict that suffering without a proportionate reason.

Yes, we should not lose our tempers, but it is wrong to ignore evil and thus allow it to continue.

 

[Nononony]

So agree!!! I too worked for a Catholic institution which turned out to be like this–you are not alone!

I think that part of the problem is that we expect Catholic people and institutions to be better, or even perfect, but they are not. Unfortunately.

It was wildly bad! I had a public relations role there for a while and I had to stop because the picture we were painting was not what actually existed. At all. And even the students could feel it. I felt like I was lying all the time. There were serious monetary issues as well, so that didn’t help. What bothered me so much was that we were unbelievably pressured to appear as though we were perfect. And if there were any complaints about screaming executives or gaslighting department heads or a 4th year in a row with no pay increase we were admonished because we weren’t grateful enough to be doing God’s work. No, “I’m sorry guys, I know it stinks…” just lectures about how we needed to humble ourselves. My new gig is much better.

It is so crazy-makingly bad when this happens. A similar thing happened at a public school in my area and the situation got so bad for the girl that it got in the newspapers.

And people wonder why victims are wary or reporting.

Exactly. It destroys a life twice.

But consider the rules of the Church: attend Mass, etc., and then these other “rules” like don’t make waves, don’t point out evil, don’t believe bad things about priests, do as I say not as I do, etc.

Look at the source: Jesus? Or the administration of some institution? Look at the aim: to help get people to Heaven, or to help maintain the image of the institution? To help you and others to be holier or to preserve an evil? And who benefits from the rule?

In this way, you can learn which are the rules that come from God and which are the rules that are from an enemy (whether supernatural like the devil, or from the flesh or from the world).

Huh, I’ve never thought about it in this exact way. That is very useful!

I wonder if some people might not be more sensitive to this sort of thing than other people are? Because I go nuts over these types of situations, and other people are much more blasé.

I have a high level of conscientiousness and I blame it on that. Maybe we’re the same.

 

[Nononony]

I’ll take a look. Thanks!

 

[TK421]

@Nononony

While Catholic laity and clergy are indeed imperfect human beings, including having grave faults, I get the impression you’ve been really unlucky in your experiences in life because mine have been for the most part positive. Except there’s not really such a thing as good or bad luck: I’m sure you can learn a lot from these experience

I hope you can work through these struggles. :hugs: