How can I get past incongruence in my leaders and authority figures?

[otjm]

That is my honest problem. What can be done about that? I’m serious. I have total faith in God; I have no faith in men who say they are speaking on his behalf. I know it won’t be better in any other church because this problem is everywhere but I’m an introvert so lack of community doesn’t bother me, I have my circle. I would like to hear from others who have overcome this issue of trust. Who have been where I am and have found a way or a reason to trust…

I don’t question the failings of individuals you have encountered.

In John 6 Christ is foretelling the Eucharist. 66: "As a result of this, many [of]his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter said to him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”.

And then with the possible exception of the apostle John, all of them abandoned him during his passion and death, one committing suicide.

but the laws of the church were handed from God and interpreted by humans who of course claim to be divinely inspired… but with so many instances of my own leaders being shown to not be what they claim, and now higher level leaders being shown to not be what they claim through scandal… how can I be confident that the long-ago leaders were what they claimed?

Your comment concerning the above confuses two issues. The Church is not about rules, it is about what Christ gave us. Yes, leaders sin, and part of me wonders if you somehow have the idea that if the Church is true, then people will not sin. Christ never said that. If anything, he indicated they most certainly would sin; that is why he gave us the sacrament of reconciliation. We all - you included - sin.
And I can understand the anger (I suspect I am seriously older than you, so I most likely have seen far more than you).

And then there is the phrase of Peter, above - where do you think you are going to turn? Are you willing to abandon the sacrament of reconciliation? You are angry with their sins, and rightly so. Are you holding them up to a higher demand than you hold your self up to?

You question those of the past. So you hold that the Holy Spirit is incapable of guiding the Church through those sinful people, or do you hold that the Holy Spirit is incapable of that?

(continued)

 

[otjm]

(continued)

And do you believe that Christ is truly p[resent, body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist? And if you want to be a doubter, please explain, not to me but to yourself, the multitude of Eucharistic miracles. Where will you go for the Eucharist? or will you just walk away from Christ?

These are harsh questions, and I do not ask to be nasty. They are hard questions, just as hard as the one Christ asked Peter. And it is up to you to answer them.

I can’t speak to you and what is going in inside of you, but I have met others who have had similar issues, and I have found on occasion that they were having issues within themselves of struggling to deal with their own sin in their lives. I have no clue if that is an issue for you, but you are willing to walk away from the Church over others sins. Christ did not give us a Church so that others would be sinless; he gave us his Church that we could focus on ourselves, on we as an individual need to do in order to be saved.

Just a thought. Yes, my questions are hard and blunt. But I ask them honestly in the assumption you are asking your questions honestly.

 

[Annie]

Maybe we’re the same.

I felt like I really related to what you were saying in this thread. So much falsity, even within the Church!

 

[Nononony]

These are harsh questions, and I do not ask to be nasty. They are hard questions, just as hard as the one Christ asked Peter. And it is up to you to answer them.

I don’t find you nasty at all! This is the kind of challenge that I am seeking. I’m reflective by nature and am far more responsive to questions I can ponder than authoritative declarations that I am wrong. Those get me nowhere. I have considered and discovered the answer to most of these questions in my 50+ years. I wouldn’t say I am actively angry with anyone. I’ve done a tremendous amount of forgiveness work surrounding my younger years. I do question some of the fundamentals of the church and that is the problem I find. Despite ongoing searching, I still question and doubt… and my core issue is the opposite of most, I hold myself to an almost impossibly high standard and cut slack for others. Constantly looking to see if I’m doing well enough.

Anyway, enough over explaining myself to you! I very much appreciate honesty and hard questions so I very much appreciate your response. Thank you.

 

[Nononony]

Except there’s not really such a thing as good or bad luck: I’m sure you can learn a lot from these experience

“Luck” sometimes boils down to who surrounded you as a child… and then your ability to overcome who you were surrounded by as a child. I am lucky. I’ve just run into some issues on the path.

Thank you!

 

[umamibella]

“Luck” sometimes boils down to who surrounded you as a child… and then your ability to overcome who you were surrounded by as a child. I am lucky. I’ve just run into some issues on the path.

Thank you!

From your continual pms to me telling me I am reminding you of your mother who is abusive , you have not overcome your childhood issues at all.
Professional help is advised to help over come childhood issues like this.
That is Catholic Charity, being honest and saying hey address this problem.

You are actively angry with her judging from your projection of her abusiveness onto me

 

[Nononony]

I felt like I really related to what you were saying in this thread. So much falsity, even within the Church!

I remember when I realized that most people weren’t practicing what they preached. I was totally shocked. It’s outside of my character to twist things for my own benefit so it was a hard lesson when I learned others would do it without a second thought.

Not that I’m perfect… but if I tell you something it is probably true!

 

[Nononony]

If I’m having difficulty with an individual in these forums is there a way I can block them? There is an individual who I have asked multiple times to stop communicating with me who simply will not respect my request. I would like to block them. Can it be done?

 

[umamibella]

If I’m having difficulty with an individual in these forums is there a way I can block them? There is an individual who I have asked multiple times to stop communicating with me who simply will not respect my request. I would like to block them. Can it be done?

All you need do is stop pming me with claims my responses are reminding you of your abusive mother. That is very uncharitable and incredibly insulting.
Deal, please just stop.
I did not ask for your pms or seek them out. You pmed me with that accusation.

 

[Nononony]

From previous comments you’ve made it sounds like you may have a fairly active prayer life in terms of spontaneous conversational prayer with God (do I have that right?) and that’s good.

I do have an active prayer life but yes, it’s super free flowing, I’ve found I very much struggle with the more formal versions of prayer. I’m formal about doing the free flowing prayer, but through and through I’m a frolic through the field kind of pray-er. Honestly I will have to look into what the Lectio Divina is. I have only heard of it.

I’ve done adoration in the past and I hate to say it, but I just really don’t get it. I know that sounds bad, but it’s true. I did have a weekly hour for several years and I just didn’t get it. My friends ADORE their hour and long to go there, but I just don’t get it.

Always looking for the thing that will help me finally “get it…” Oh well. Thank you very much!

 

[MNathaniel]

I do have an active prayer life but yes, it’s super free flowing, I’ve found I very much struggle with the more formal versions of prayer. I’m formal about doing the free flowing prayer, but through and through I’m a frolic through the field kind of pray-er. Honestly I will have to look into what the Lectio Divina is. I have only heard of it.

…Thank you very much!

You’re welcome! I actually relate to you in terms of free form prayer. I don’t tend to pray the rosary or LoTH unless as part of a group (or if I’m doing some specific novena or devotion, re: rosary).

Definitely check out Lectio Divina. I think it’s actually a form of prayer that appeals to us free-form type people, while still grounding us in the root of God’s Word.

Basically there are a few simple steps to it, which you can google, but in principle the purpose of the sequence is (as I understand it) to move from the first shallow reading where we ‘master’ the material (by grasping the informational level of what today’s story content is, what the historical context or genre of the particular book is, etc)… to being mastered by it. The key to Lectio Divina is on the third or so read-through, when we really slow down and just listen for the one word or phrase that God is making stand out to us through this text today. And then we start a conversation with God from that one word or phrase, and listen for His response or action in us. We enter into it ourselves and listen to be taught.

So it sort of ends up free form, but through a structured route (and rooted in the Word as revealed through the concrete medium of Scripture), if you see what I mean. Simultaneously grounding and flexible to what different thing God may say to us from the same text each day.

As I mentioned I like to use each day’s different gospel reading. But some folks like to spend all week on the coming Sunday’s gospel reading. Both approaches are good.

 

[Nononony]

OOOOOh! We do that sometimes in my bible study group, but they call it something else… I don’t remember what… you’re right, I do like that. How long do you generally spend doing that in a day then? The name just sounds like something that would take a looooong time.

 

[MNathaniel]

Haha no it doesn’t have to take long.

I’d say you want to set aside enough time that you’re not ‘rushing through’ the contemplation… but no need to go on longer than you’re actually able to focus or attentively listen.

I’d say maybe 15 - 30 minutes might be a reasonable allotment of time? I can see someone going beyond 30 minutes if they preceded their contemplation with making a deep study at the informational level of a text first (like, cross referencing every citation, etc), but for your average person I think anywhere in the 15 - 30 minute range sounds reasonable to me. To both really read a passage, really consider it on the informational level, then really reflect on what God is saying to you personally through this text on this day, and then sitting with Him in that for awhile.

Sometimes I set a stopwatch so I don’t have to get distracted thinking about the time. I can always reset it if I want to contemplate for longer.

 

[Nononony]

Sometimes I set a stopwatch so I don’t have to get distracted thinking about the time. I can always reset it if I want to contemplate for longer.

That’s a really good idea, I know half the time when I try meditation or something I spend half of it trying to figure out how long I’ve been going and how long I have left.