How can I prove that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin?

[elzermank]

Just on a general theme, it seems incredible to me that our Christian brothers cannot identify the central role of Mary in our faith. Going for a little stroll in history, let’s begin with
. Adam and Eve and the legacy they left all of God’s creation by their pride and disobedience

. So God has pity on us and tells us to wait…wait…wait a Messiah will save us.

. This goes on for a very very long time. Millions of people waiting.

. Finally God Himself drags the Hebrews out from among the rest of humanity and sets about teaching them about Himself.

. Disciples, exiles, wars, drama after drama and they’re still waiting for the Messiah, against all the odds.

. The Messiah arrives, via a pure chosen soul from amongst all others, a humble virgin, and lives a hard and strenuous life teaching all of humanity what is important.

. His final proof of love is when he is lifted up on the cross - see the shadow cast back to Adam and Eve? And from there, we all crowd around to hear what his final words will be.

And guess what? He gives us His mother. I really don’t think he was worried about her housing problem at that stage. This is crucial. This is central, and it’s for all of us.
She’s our mama. Pure, loving, steadfast and always pointing to Jesus. She was faithful to Him and she is faithful to us. Fiat!
KE

 

[Steven_John]

If they (Fundamental/Evangelical Christians) want to follow sola scriptora - how do they explain these texts? And not confirm at least the possibility of Mary’s perpetual virginity?

I dont consider myself fitting the description you offer nor does the KJV always fit my heart.

I find no evidence that proves Mary’s (bbhn) perpetual virginity but i am with you it is possible.

For My Father all things are possible, she clearly was in relationship with Him.

I am with the posters that Mary’s (bbhn) perpetual virginity does not matter as to how live.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tantum ergo,

I guess the trick here is that any interaction with her should be considered ‘iffy’ at best. There is an agenda to discredit our Catholic Faith that needs to understood and appreciated up front - after that, you just know what you are dealing with.

Yes, she is a disappointment, but only in the sense that you hope she will grow up and she insists on insulting Christ’s Church and His Saints. Her arguments are hollow and quite dull - but they are repititious. After a short while she repeats hersrlf.

My focus is not so much her antics, but for people who just read the posts on these various threads. I certainly do not want anyone to think her disdainful comments have either validity or content. Misleading others is serious and the story about the mill-stone around the neck is really just the beginning.

Don’t lose heart - for her, it is just a game.

God bless

Ah, so you were trying to be funny, Ginger.

I see.

Of course, pretty quickly after that post went up, I put up the actual message that the bad link did not show.

You posted a couple of times after I did that and **never bothered to let us know **that you thought that a ‘non-answer’ i.e. a ‘dead link’ was a ‘better’ answer from a Catholic source than all of us ‘live’ people?

One wonders just how long you would have waited to let us in on the joke if we hadn’t been ‘curious’. . .

One wonders too just why you thought it was so funny to make what turns out to be a really insulting dismissal of the hard work of many people who thought they were at least addressing somebody who took them seriously even if the person disagreed with them. . .

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Kevin,

What an excellent post!

‘Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until the time of her death’ (2 Sam 6:23)
Did she have children after her death?

The raven ‘went forth and did not return till the waters were dried up from the earth’ (Gen 8:7)
The raven never came back

The location of the grave of Moses no-one knows ‘until this present day’ (Deut 34:6)
We have not located it.

‘And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace’ (1 Macc 5:54)
Were the soldiers slain on returning from battle?

Thanks for these quotes.

God bless

 

[Jason_1977]

Just on a general theme, it seems incredible to me that our Christian brothers cannot identify the central role of Mary in our faith. Going for a little stroll in history, let’s begin with
. Adam and Eve and the legacy they left all of God’s creation by their pride and disobedience

. So God has pity on us and tells us to wait…wait…wait a Messiah will save us.

. This goes on for a very very long time. Millions of people waiting.

. Finally God Himself drags the Hebrews out from among the rest of humanity and sets about teaching them about Himself.

. Disciples, exiles, wars, drama after drama and they’re still waiting for the Messiah, against all the odds.

. The Messiah arrives, via a pure chosen soul from amongst all others, a humble virgin, and lives a hard and strenuous life teaching all of humanity what is important.

. His final proof of love is when he is lifted up on the cross - see the shadow cast back to Adam and Eve? And from there, we all crowd around to hear what his final words will be.

And guess what? He gives us His mother. I really don’t think he was worried about her housing problem at that stage. This is crucial. This is central, and it’s for all of us.
She’s our mama. Pure, loving, steadfast and always pointing to Jesus. She was faithful to Him and she is faithful to us. Fiat!
KE

I’m not on a mission to be disagreeable or anything, I’m a catholic myself, but I don’t see Mary as being central to the faith so much as the trinity & the sacraments. I see Mary as being a key part of the faith, but I dont think central is it. I’m not trying to burst any bubbles or anything, it’s just my 2 cents.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jason,

Just to be clear, Christ is central in our Faith. We adore God as God; we honor Mary as His Mother. Notice, in many of the images of Mary she is holding the Christ Child in one hand and pointing to Him with the other. She is not trying to receive attention for herself but rather, direct all attention to Christ.

I’m not on a mission to be disagreeable or anything, I’m a catholic myself, but I don’t see Mary as being central to the faith so much as the trinity & the sacraments. I see Mary as being a key part of the faith, but I dont think central is it. I’m not trying to burst any bubbles or anything, it’s just my 2 cents.

Mary has a unique roll in Salvation because God chose her for that role. She really is not incidental, or an option or un-necessary item. When Christ was on the Cross and gave us Mary - He expects us to see her as our Mother, too. Showing reverance to Christ’s Mother is something that I think is in every Christian’s best interest.

God bless

 

[John1]

Hello All,

I’m saying basically the same thing as Jason, I think. I’m not trying to discredit catholic beliefs. I’m a member of the catholic church. Mary was/is blessed above all women. She is an integral part of the faith, as are are the Apostles, but I don’t see her as the central part of Christianity, if she were, the religion would be called “Mary-anity”. She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, past that I don’t see the importance of her virginity. She was the pure vessel that God chose to give birth to His Son and the woman he chose to raise his Son along with Joseph, who I think was also chosen by God. Joseph was God’s servant too, and he humbly accepted the word of the angel of the Lord. Don’t get me wrong, Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, the Apsotles, you and I, all the parts of the Body of Christ are importatnt, but the Central figures are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All this debating about Mary tends to give the impression that some people don’t repsect or even have a good word to say about Mary, which couldn’t be farther from the truth.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, John1

Any comments about post #265?

Hello All,

I’m saying basically the same thing as Jason, I think. I’m not trying to discredit catholic beliefs. I’m a member of the catholic church. Mary was/is blessed above all women. She is an integral part of the faith, as are are the Apostles, but I don’t see her as the central part of Christianity, if she were, the religion would be called “Mary-anity”. She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, past that I don’t see the importance of her virginity. She was the pure vessel that God chose to give birth to His Son and the woman he chose to raise his Son along with Joseph, who I think was also chosen by God. Joseph was God’s servant too, and he humbly accepted the word of the angel of the Lord. Don’t get me wrong, Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, the Apsotles, you and I, all the parts of the Body of Christ are importatnt, but the Central figures are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All this debating about Mary tends to give the impression that some people don’t repsect or even have a good word to say about Mary, which couldn’t be farther from the truth.

God bless

 

[Luke65]

If you want to be a beloved disciple of our Lord Jesus then welcome His mother, who He gave to us, into your heart and into your home. And God will shower His graces on you so that you can be pure in heart and mind like our Blessed Mother, and free from errors in faith, which is why Mary is called the “destroyer of all heresies”. And her finest work on that count is yet to come…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Luke65

If you want to be a beloved disciple of our Lord Jesus then welcome His mother, who He gave to us, into your heart and into your home. And God will shower His graces on you so that you can be pure in heart and mind like our Blessed Mother, and free from errors in faith, which is why Mary is called the “destroyer of all heresies”. And her finest work on that count is yet to come…

God bless

 

[panevino]

Hi Ginger2,

there was a really interesting conversation going on about 10 pages back on this thread and I am really interested to hear your thoughts on a couple things, to do with the validity of mary remaining a virgin after the birth of jesus…
I understand that you dont claim that mary definately had other children, (i’m sure i saw you post that somewhere, apologies if i’m wrong) i’m more interested in this particular conversation a few of us were having about the possibility or not of a couple refraining from sex even though angel said to Joseph "do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife…"mat1:20NIV

you wrote the following

This whole discussion could be put to rest if you simply come up with one supporting piece of historical evidence that temple virgins were regularly given into a “celibate marriage” relationship? Or even that they were customarily put out of the temple and into the care of elderly widowers?

Or even with men who took a vow of celibacy as was just claimed. Although that one is really funny as it is placing people in a position of temptation and the Hebrew people tried to avoid such situation.
Ginger

disregarding the idea of a temple virgin …

i provided a preliminary response, which i probably could of worded a bit better
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5704678&postcount=114
and then i posted

I hope this post does not kick us over a page, i really liked the post by luke65, but i found this interesting, regarding a betorthed virgin who could possibly remain a virgin.

36If a man thinks he is not behaving properly toward his virgin,[t] and if his passion is so strong that he feels he ought to marry her, let him do what he wants; he isn’t sinning. Let them get married. 37However, if a man stands firm in his resolve, feels no necessity, and has made up his mind to keep her a virgin, he will be acting appropriately. 38So then the man who marries the virgin acts appropriately, but the man who refrains from marriage does even better. 1 Corinthians 7:36 ISV

the virgin has the following footnote
[t] 7:36 I.e. virgin fiancée, but possibly virgin daughter
I noticed that a similar footnote is also in the NIV
NIV has it as "…If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to…

following this you responded

Originally Posted by Ginger2
This was good so I looked it up and read the whole chapter. 36 If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, and if a critical moment has come and so it has to be, let him do as he wishes. He is committing no sin; let them get married.

This, if it is indeed a note on a vow of celibacy by a virgin who was taken under guardianship of a man, indicates it would be no sin to at some point to begin marital relations.

Ginger

in my follow up post forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5727414&postcount=224
I agree with you that it would not of been a sin for them to have marital relations.
and discussed biblical referecnes to abstaining from sex for the sake of the kingdom

and I’d love to hear what you think about the discussion on joseph and Mary maintining thier ‘resolve’ given the tasks they were given.

disreagrd the stuff about the bretheren.

obviously i dont think all this proves it, but it does provide a biblical avenue for remaining a virgin following birth of jesus.

 

[elzermank]

OK hair-splitters. I didn’t mean ‘central’ as a substitute for God. I meant, if you’re close to Michelle, you’re close to the heart of Obama. If you’re in agreement with Carla, you’ve got a good hearing with Sarkozy. If you love someone and want to know more about them, who do you ask? None better than his mother. That’s pretty ‘central’, but not a substitute.
KE

 

[Tomb54]

If you want to be a beloved disciple of our Lord Jesus then welcome His mother, who He gave to us, into your heart and into your home. And God will shower His graces on you so that you can be pure in heart and mind like our Blessed Mother, and free from errors in faith, which is why Mary is called the “destroyer of all heresies”. And her finest work on that count is yet to come…

And I agree with all you guys including Jason and John. Many converts have trouble with Mary and while they want to have what the CC has they have trouble getting over the negativity they have been taught about catholic beliefs of the Blessed Mother. I would much rather have them come into the faith to have the blessing of the Eucharist and wait for Jesus to bring them to His mother.
This hardship seen by some want to be converts show that some faiths do not honor Mary very much and even attack her through the attacks on the CC beliefs about her but I believe she is big enough to take it if these people will only come to love her Son. I also believe when they come to deeply love Christ, whether catholic or not they, will come to love His mother as the CC does.

I also believe to be truly close to Jesus you must become close to His mother as she was His first follower and His most loyal one also. Something we all aspire toward is her unshakable faith in her Son.

 

[Luke65]

And I agree with all you guys including Jason and John. Many converts have trouble with Mary and while they want to have what the CC has they have trouble getting over the negativity they have been taught about catholic beliefs of the Blessed Mother. I would much rather have them come into the faith to have the blessing of the Eucharist and wait for Jesus to bring them to His mother.
This hardship seen by some want to be converts show that some faiths do not honor Mary very much and even attack her through the attacks on the CC beliefs about her but I believe she is big enough to take it if these people will only come to love her Son. I also believe when they come to deeply love Christ, whether catholic or not they, will come to love His mother as the CC does.

I also believe to be truly close to Jesus you must become close to His mother as she was His first follower and His most loyal one also. Something we all aspire toward is her unshakable faith in her Son.

No doubt, God rejoices whenever we turn our hearts back to Him, whatever the reason. But St. John was Jesus’ favorite.

 

[zapaleda]

Did she remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Answering the question can have a strong effect on subsequent doctrines. As far as Protestant theology goes, it makes no difference if Mary remained a virgin or not. But, in Roman Catholic theology, it is very important since it elevates Mary to such a high degree that she seems almost like a goddess and gives her titles such as co-mediatrix, queen of heaven, mother of the church, etc. Therefore, it is necessary to examine the issue of her perpetual virginity in hopes of providing a more biblical position.

The word “virgin” in the New Testament is “parthenos” and it occurs 14 times. However, the word does not occur in Matt. 1:25. Instead, the literal Greek says, “and he knew her not until she gave birth to a son and called his name Jesus.”

This would seem pretty straight forward that Joseph had no sexual relations with Mary until the birth of Christ and that after the birth of Jesus, they had relations. The word “until” is a preposition and means, “up to that time, before a specified time, to the extent that.”

Up to the time of: “I ate until I was stuffed.” This means that I ate and stopped when I was full and designates a change of action. “I ate up to the time that I was stuffed.”
Before a specified time: “You can’t go until you’ve paid the fine.” This designates a condition required before a change can occur. “You can’t go before you’ve paid the fine.”
To the extent that: I worked until I was exhausted. Signifying an effect or condition as a result. “I worked to the point that I was exhausted.”

 

[Vico]

Re zapaleda:

The Greek phrase “heos hou” is used 20 times in the New Testament, is “until that” which is used in Matt 1:25 and is also used in Luke 24:49 (KJV):

“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

Here it could mean “at least until” but not mean “but not after”. The continuation of the action after the condition is indeterminate with “heos hou”, so it is incorrect to conclude in Matt 1:25 that the virginity is not perpetual. There is also no indication in scripture that Mary had any other children, and nothing that explicitly states that Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage. Also, since Jesus asks St. John to care for Mary at his execution, having no children is consistent with having no other kin to care for her, as would be done in those days. Joseph is not there.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Zapaleda,

Welcome to the list.

You neglected to mention possibly her greatest title: Mother of God.

Perchance… did you happen to read the excellent previous post on “until” and its multiple uses that - if taken the way we interpret the word today - utter absurdity? It really is a good read.

Did she remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Answering the question can have a strong effect on subsequent doctrines. As far as Protestant theology goes, it makes no difference if Mary remained a virgin or not. But, in Roman Catholic theology, it is very important since it elevates Mary to such a high degree that she seems almost like a goddess and gives her titles such as co-mediatrix, queen of heaven, mother of the church, etc. Therefore, it is necessary to examine the issue of her perpetual virginity in hopes of providing a more biblical position.

The word “virgin” in the New Testament is “parthenos” and it occurs 14 times. However, the word does not occur in Matt. 1:25. Instead, the literal Greek says, “and he knew her not until she gave birth to a son and called his name Jesus.”

This would seem pretty straight forward that Joseph had no sexual relations with Mary until the birth of Christ and that after the birth of Jesus, they had relations. The word “until” is a preposition and means, “up to that time, before a specified time, to the extent that.”

Up to the time of: “I ate until I was stuffed.” This means that I ate and stopped when I was full and designates a change of action. “I ate up to the time that I was stuffed.”
Before a specified time: “You can’t go until you’ve paid the fine.” This designates a condition required before a change can occur. “You can’t go before you’ve paid the fine.”
To the extent that: I worked until I was exhausted. Signifying an effect or condition as a result. “I worked to the point that I was exhausted.”

I am familiar with many different Protestant views on Mary … Luther and Calvin were not ones to deny her perpetual virginity … it seems like this challenge came about much later as the protests began to protest the original protesters. Before continuing with the on-going downward spiral of these splinter groups, you may want to do some checking with the Early Church Fathers.

God bless

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

To deny the virginity of Mary is to deny the validity of Scripture:
To declare oneself a sola scriptura Protestant with a big caveat.

Virginal conception of Jesus - ‘That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost’ (Mt 1:20)
‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son’ (Is 7:14)

Brothers and sisters of Jesus? The sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St Matthew significantly calls ‘the other Mary’ (Mt 13: 55; 27: 56)

Mary - ‘ever-virgin’ (Jn 19: 26-27; Rom 8: 29; Rev 12: 17)
Jesus is Son of the Father in both his natures, divinity & humanity (Lk 2: 48-49)

Mary is ‘the handmaid of the Lord’ (Lk 1: 38)

 

[Steven_John]

Mary - ‘ever-virgin’ (Jn 19: 26-27; Rom 8: 29; Rev 12: 17)

John 19:26-27 (New Living Translation)

26 When Jesus saw his mother standing there beside the disciple he loved, he said to her, “Dear woman, here is your son.” 27 And he said to this disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from then on this disciple took her into his home.

Romans 8:29 (New Living Translation)

29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Revelation 12:17 (New Living Translation)

17 And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.

IMO Spiritual exercise doe not mean stretching scripture. This thread contains some references that would support your argument much better.

 

[bluelake]

Don’t be so disingenuous. I have disputed that she was a temple virgin but that does not mean that I don’t believe she made a vow of virginity. The question she asks is a strange one .
But she didn’t say this did she? She said she was a virgin that does not fit into your imaginary question.

According to Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom it is interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse. As you have pointed out, even married women made such a vow. Mary made such a vow. Her husband Joseph following the law would not have had relations with her.

It was probably why he was so shocked at her pregnancy she had broken her vow.

adrift,
The bible is clear on this subject. Mt.13;55, Mt.12;46-47
However, one commentary I have reads the other children were ‘probably’ the other children of Mary and Joseph.
Jesus left the care of his mother, Mary, to John during the crucifixion.Jn.19:25-27
The brothers were not at the cross with Mary.
I tend to believe Mary was the mother of one son, Jesus Christ. I’m a Lutheran.

God bless,
bluelake