How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

[triumphguy]

No they don’t.

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

Don’t argue with me, argue with the Pope!

 

[triumphguy]

How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)

How do you reconcile etc., etc.,? By submitting your intellect to Church teaching.

 

[SteveVH]

And so disagree with Church Teaching.

Mickey is Orthodox, I believe. Not sure if this is Orthodox teaching or just his opinion.

 

[SteveVH]

So Paul was lying when he told the Athenians that he came to preach the Unknown God that they worshipped among their other deities? Or committing idolatry? Neither - he was telling truth.

Not that all are blameless in their worship - but then Nostra Aetate does not claim that they are.

Thank you.

 

[LilyM]

That is always the first comment in an attempt to prove the muslim statement to be true. Do the Jews (of today) recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

Do Protestants not deny the Son in denying the Real presence? Do we say they worship a different God as a result?

 

[Mickey]

I don’t think Abraham knew about the Trinity at all

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad. Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am”.
John 8:56-58

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[Mickey]

Do Protestants not deny the Son

I do not know any protestants that deny the Son. And there are protestants (Anglicans and Methodists and Lutherans come to mind) who believe in the real presence.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Well, if that’s the way you want to look at it. I don’t think Abraham knew about the Trinity at all (if he did he certainly didn’t teach it) because it was not revealed until Christ came, nevetheless he worshiped the true God. I think one can recognize that there can only be one, true God and choose to worship him without fully understanding him.

Steve, God didnt reveal himself as Trinity to Abraham. God has revealed Himself that way since. The Muslims and Jews reject it. They’ve rejected the Son and so have rejected the Father also.

 

[Mickey]

Don’t argue with me, argue with the Pope!

I do not submit to the Pope and I am not bound by the Pope’s infallible statements. By the way…is Nostrae Aetate considered to be an infallible encyclical?

 

[The_Scott]

They worship the God of Abraham and follow certain portions of the Mosaic Law, so they follow the same God that we do. It’s just that they do not worship Him fully, because they reject the idea of the trinity.

Correct. They have a basic, though very incomplete, understanding of the one God, much like the Jews.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Would you accept a rather simplistic answer?

The Moslems hold that the their God is the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham is also the God of the Jews. Since Christianity is the fulfillment (not replacement) of the Old Covenant, we also hold to that same belief. However, God also revealed to us His only Begotten Son, and together with the Holy Spirit, They are One.

The Moslems don’t have this revelation. Therefore the God they believe is the One True God, but their understanding of His nature is insufficient. It’s their understanding that’s incomplete, not their God.

I think this summarises it very well. They worship the same God, but with deficient/incorrect understanding. We should also note that they are not, in general, individually responsible for the deficient understanding.

The Jews knew and worshipped the One True God before they had any knowledge of the Jesus Christ. The revelation through Moses and the Prophets was of God, but it was incomplete.

 

[buffalo]

Muslims Worship the One True God - Only Their ‘Receiving Apparatus’ Is Defective

In recent years many self-styled “traditionalist” Catholics have expressed shock that Pope John Paul II has stated on various occasions—usually during his apostolic journeys to nations with a strong Muslim presence—that the followers of Islam, together with Christians, worship “the one true God.” But the Holy Father has done nothing more than restate the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, which said, “The Church also views with esteem the Muslims, who worship the one and only God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth” (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions 2).

Some “traditionalist” Catholics cite these statements of the Council and the Pope as evidence for the sedevacantist position, which holds that the See of Peter is vacant, i.e., that there has been no true pope since Vatican II. Their thinking is that since Allah is a false god, the statements of Paul VI and John Paul II to the contrary constitute public heresy—even apostasy and idolatry—which is incompatible with their being true popes.

These people use this issue as a litmus test for determining who is Catholic and who isn’t. Simply ask a professing Catholic, they say, whether Muslims worship the one true God (as John Paul II says they do). If the person answers yes, then you can know without further ado that he has already reached “the end of the road”—total apostasy.

I have long been in public discourse with sedevacantists via letters and articles in various publications. (See, for example, “White Smoke, Valid Pope,” This Rock, March 2001.) I am on record agreeing with Pope John Paul II that it can be said truly that the Muslims “worship the one true God” even though they deny his trinitarian character. At the same time, I believe unequivocally in the revealed mystery of the most blessed Trinity—as does John Paul II along with all his predecessors.
http://archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea4.asp

more…

 

[SteveVH]

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad. Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am”.
John 8:56-58

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Isn’t that interesting. It makes one wonder why, if the Father of Israel knew about the Trinity, that the Jews are not Trinitarians. What Abraham saw was the birth of Issac who was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promises concerning Abraham’s seed. This says nothing of Abraham’s awareness of God as a Trinity of divine Persons.

Abraham did point to Jesus when he said “God will provide the lamb” after nearly sacrificing his own son. But to say that he understood the lamb to be the second Person of the Trinity is going to far.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, God didnt reveal himself as Trinity to Abraham. God has revealed Himself that way since. The Muslims and Jews reject it. They’ve rejected the Son and so have rejected the Father also.

Would you say that the Jews worshipped the one true God prior to the Trinity being revealed?

 

[PRmerger]

Steve, God didnt reveal himself as Trinity to Abraham. God has revealed Himself that way since. The Muslims and Jews reject it. They’ve rejected the Son and so have rejected the Father also.

Well, just as we don’t claim that you worship a different Jesus, just because you don’t believe in the Real Presence…

we don’t claim that Jews and Muslims worship a different God, just because they don’t believe in Jesus as the 2nd person of the Trinity.

To the degree that all of you have embraced the Truth, we say

To the degree that all of you have rejected the Truth, we say, “We love you. Taste and see the goodness of the Lord, friend!”

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Would you say that the Jews worshipped the one true God prior to the Trinity being revealed?

Yes they were. They could not be held liable for something that hadn’t been revealed yet, however. Now they are because they, like the rest of humanity must obey the gospel of Christ.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Well, just as we don’t claim that you worship a different Jesus, just because you don’t believe in the Real Presence…

we don’t claim that Jews and Muslims worship a different God, just because they don’t believe in Jesus as the 2nd person of the Trinity.

To the degree that all of you have embraced the Truth, we say

To the degree that all of you have rejected the Truth, we say, “We love you. Taste and see the goodness of the Lord, friend!”

The real presence does not have anything to do with the nature of One God in 3 Persons.

 

[Mickey]

Isn’t that interesting. It makes one wonder why, if the Father of Israel knew about the Trinity, that the Jews are not Trinitarians. What Abraham saw was the birth of Issac who was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promises concerning Abraham’s seed. This says nothing of Abraham’s awareness of God as a Trinity of divine Persons.

Abraham did point to Jesus when he said “God will provide the lamb” after nearly sacrificing his own son. But to say that he understood the lamb to be the second Person of the Trinity is going to far.

And you know this how? I can point you to multiple Scriptures which show the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. You do not know what Abraham knew. The Orthodox (and Eastern Catholic) Church has an Icon called “The Hospitality of Abraham” that depicts Abraham welcoming the angels in Genesis…a type of the Trinity.

But even if you try to say that somehow you know that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not revealed in the OT…Gaelic Bard is correct. The Trinity is now plain as day…and the Jews and muslims deny the Trinitarian God.

 

[LilyM]

I do not know any protestants that deny the Son. And there are protestants (Anglicans and Methodists and Lutherans come to mind) who believe in the real presence.

Is a person who beholds Our Lord in the Eucharist and says ‘this is common bread and wine’ not denying the Son?

 

[PRmerger]

The real presence does not have anything to do with the nature of One God in 3 Persons.

But you do see the analogy, yes?

It’s like someone taking this analogy:

Christmas tree : ornament :: earlobe :: earring

and saying: that analogy is false because a Christmas tree does not have flesh. Earlobes do.

That would be :whacky:, no?