How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

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SteveVH said:
Okay, you have shown that Islam is a false religion. No one is questioning that (at least not so far). This does not translate into damnation for those, who through no fault of their own, have never been taught anything different.
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Jesus disagrees. As does the rest of the New Testament.
 
adrift said:
Do you mean disagreement? Then you to believe that the Jehovah Witness do not worship the same God?
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No, they don’t. Nor do Mormons, Hindus, Christadelphians, et al.

Typing on a mobile phone, adrift. Not the most efficient way to type fast 🙂
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Do Protestants worship Jesus apart from the Eucharist?
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Do Muslims worship God apart from Jesus?

You are presumably arguing that Jesus cannot be separated from God the Father such that the former can be worshipped without the latter - well, by that logic neither can He be separated from His Eucharistic body and blood, surely.
 
LilyM said:
Do Muslims worship God apart from Jesus?

You are presumably arguing that Jesus cannot be separated from God the Father such that the former can be worshipped without the latter - well, by that logic neither can He be separated from His Eucharistic body and blood, surely.
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Lily, you’d have a point if Protestants believed it was His blood and refused to worship it.

And I am not saying to worship God apart from Christ is false worship. Jesus is.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Again, if you want to argue that failing to believe in the eucharist is dangerous…fine.

but it is not a disagresenent over WHO Christ is
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Are you sure about that? We believe he is a God so loving that he would enter into the most intimate relationship possible with a human being, to the extent that he actually becomes part of us and we part of him, physically and spiritually; in every fiber of our being. His blood courses through our veins and he dwells in our souls. Do you believe he is such a God?
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Jesus disagrees. As does the rest of the New Testament.
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Then you had better become a Catholic, since the Catholic religion is what Jesus established for our salvation - nothing else. As the Apostles themselves said, “We believe … in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” 🙂

But Jesus Himself makes an exception for the servant who didn’t know any better. (Luke 12:48)
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Lily, you’d have a point if Protestants believed it was His blood and refused to worship it.

And I am not saying to worship God apart from Christ is false worship. Jesus is.
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Well it’s not like Muslims or Jews believe Jesus is God or that God is Trinity and refuse ro to worship accordingly either 🤷

Why, pray tell, should belief in the Real Presence be any more optional than belief in the Trinity?

True the creeds do not mention it, but neither do they mention the divine inspiration of Scripture - would you hold that one can be Christian and deny that scripture is the inspired word of God? I am sure there are other beliefs that you would consider to be essential which are not mentioned in the creeds.
 
montfortian said:
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)
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“Allah” is God the Father. They believe in God, although they believe false things about Him.
 
SteveVH said:
Are you sure about that? We believe he is a God so loving that he would enter into the most intimate relationship possible with a human being, to the extent that he actually becomes part of us and we part of him, physically and spiritually; in every fiber of our being. His blood courses through our veins and he dwells in our souls. Do you believe he is such a God?
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Steve, no matter how you stretch the argument, denying that Jesus is present is not to deny that He is God incarnate, second Person of the Trinity, redeemer of humanity and returning King of all creation.
 
Mickey said:
So you are saying that this whole thing (and the encyclical) is about invincible ignorance?
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What I think it is is an example of true Christian love and respect toward a people who’s religion has a common root. The Church reaches out to all people of the world and a great place to start is on common ground, that being that we both believe in one God.

As far as the spiritual consequences of being a Muslim as opposed to a Christian, of course the principle of invincible ignorance would come into play. We trust in God’s mercy for all people.
 
LilyM said:
Well it’s not like Muslims or Jews believe Jesus is God or that God is Trinity either 🤷
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No, its not. Again, there’s no theological paralell between the eucharist and who God is in His being and persons.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Steve, no matter how you stretch the argument, denying that Jesus is present is not to deny that He is God incarnate, second Person of the Trinity, redeemer of humanity and returning King of all creation.
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And to deny a false perception of Christ is not to deny that there is one God, the Creator of the Universe, and that we are his creatures and are made to worship him.
 
SteveVH said:
What I think it is is an example of true Christian love and respect toward a people who’s religion has a common root. The Church reaches out to all people of the world and a great place to start is on common ground, that being that we both believe in one God.

As far as the spiritual consequences of being a Muslim as opposed to a Christian, of course the principle of invincible ignorance would come into play. We trust in God’s mercy for all people.
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Respecting a Muslim as a person made in the image of God, who is loved by that God so that God has ransomed him with His blood is not to respect the religion that denies He has done so.

I trust in His mercy to those who believe and confess that Christ is Lord who has been raised from the dead.
 
SteveVH said:
And to deny a false perception of Christ is not to deny that there is one God, the Creator of the Universe, and that we are his creatures and are made to worship him.
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A false perception? What is the false perception? They say in their book He is not God. That leads me to believe they understand precisely what the claim of the Christian gospel is. Do the Jews misunderstand it, too, Steve?
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
A false perception? What is the false perception? They say in their book He is not God. That leads me to believe they understand precisely what the claim of the Christian gospel is. Do the Jews misunderstand it, too, Steve?
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Gaelic,

The fool says in his heart there is no God…

I believe in Jesus, the Universe He created and all that is in it, and I believe He truly would build a Church…

and I believe that He said He would be with us always

and I believe that He taught Paul and Paul taught that His body was the Church

and I believe that the Body of Christ is the Church

and based on the sins of men like Calvin, Luther, Tynsdale, men who said that the translation of a book I have that I cannot prove is Scripture, men who say that for 1500 years those that believed that

Bread and Wine are truly His Body and Blood
The Church that He founded is truly on Earth and is a means of Salvation

were wrong…and so as the Jews misunderstand so do you…
for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
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and the Scripture that the Church declares to be the word of God declares that generation after generation those that follow the teachings of those that sin are accountable to God and hey

you do as you wish…🙂
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
A false perception? What is the false perception? They say in their book He is not God.
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Exactly, you just made my point. Now imagine growing up in a little village in Iraq. You have been taught all of your life that Jesus is not God. You don’t dare even talk to a Christian, under penalty of law, in fact you would probably turn them in as they are infidels who are out to destroy the faith of God’s people. This person is not guilty of denying Jesus Christ because he has never known him. Only God knows the response of this person to the truth.
Gaelic_Bard said:
That leads me to believe they understand precisely what the claim of the Christian gospel is.
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You would be wrong. Have you ever spoken with Muslim posters on this forum? I always thought the same thing, that they knew the Christian Scriptures and denied them. That isn’t the fact. The fact is that they believe what is written in the Quran about Christ and that’s pretty much the extent of it. At least that has been my experience. Just due to the nature of their faith and culture, you don’t find the average Muslim sitting around reading the Bible to see what those Christians believe. Bibles are outlawed in most Muslim communities. You can go to prison just for possessing one.
 
SteveVH said:
Exactly, you just made my point. Now imagine growing up in a little village in Iraq. You have been taught all of your life that Jesus is not God. You don’t dare even talk to a Christian, under penalty of law, in fact you would probably turn them in as they are infidels who are out to destroy the faith of God’s people. This person is not guilty of denying Jesus Christ because he has never known him. Only God knows the response of this person to the truth.
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Let me clarify something Steve. The situation you describe above is not what we are discussing. We’re not talking here about the salvation of individual Muslims. Now, I don’t necessarily agree with invincible ignorance but we’re not discussing the fate of those who haven’t heard the gospel. We are discussing specifically here whether the god of the religion of Islam is the same God worshiped by Christians. It is to that that I am emphatically saying no to. Because Christ is God and Islam does not worship Christ.

What you describe above is connected but only tangentially. You could say Hindus are under invincible ignorance but that does not mean Brahma is the Godb of Abraham.
 
montfortian said:
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)
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I’ll repeat Archbishop DiNoia’s comment. “That’s not their responsibility. It’s our’s.”

In other words, as long as the CDF says that it’s reconcilable with the past, we don’t need to look up every single piece of paper, every sermon, every book or every statement between the Council of Florence and today in order to see that there is a hermaneutic of continuity. We trust the Church.

We trust our Church when she tells us that the tomb was empty, that a virgin conceived and remained a virgin, that bread and wine become flesh and blood, that she can forgive sins, and a few other things.

This is a no-brainer, because this does not affect me directly. This statement is simply telling me what the Magisterium believes. I have no authority over the Magisterium nor doe my opinion change what the Magiseterium says. Nor may I ever tell anyone else to disagree with the Magisterium, even if I disagree. That would be setting myself up as a parallel Magisterium and I’m not.
 
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