How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

[Reuben_J]

What Catholicism feels Protestants are doing when they reject the Latin Church or the Eucharist is irrelevant to whether the god of Islam is the God of Abraham. It’s not a double standard because the Catholic Church worships Christ, therefore they worship God. Protestants worship Christ, therefore, they worship God. Muslims do not worship Christ, therefore, they do not worship God.

If Catholics did say that Protestants do not worship God, that would not change the fact that Muslims do not worship God.

It is a double standard. If we say that Muslims do not worship the same God even though they say they do because they reject the Trinity,

it also can be said that Baptists do not worship the same Jesus even though they say they do because they reject Jesus in the Eucharist which is the source of life.

And of course we know that both are not true. No matter how much we disagree with the Baptists about their rejection of the Eucharist we cannot take it away from them that they worship the same Jesus no matter how faulty it may be. The same can be said of the Muslims worshipping the same God no matter how faulty it may be.

 

[Mickey]

But, if you were Catholic, would you have to confess a sin of disobedience against the Church.

Nonsense. The muslim teaching is an ecumenical gesture. It has nothing to do with salvation of your soul.

 

[Denise1957]

I would like to add that it is unlikely that most Catholics have even read all of the Council documents. And even if a Catholic has read them, understanding them may be difficult. Weren’t the documents meant mainly for the bishops, rather than the faithful? I could be wrong about that. The Catechism, perhaps, will tell us what we are obliged to accept, or not.

Also, in regards to the Council, it says in Sacrosanctum Concillium, Chapter Vl on Sacred Music, that Gregorian Chant is to be given pride of place in the liturgy. Well, Gregorian chant has hardly been given pride of place since the Council, but does this mean that bishops or priests who have gone against this directive have sinned? That would mean that a lot of them have sinned, if they know about this directive. Otherwise, I would think that they aren’t culpable. The point is, the documents are not easy to understand for the faithful. And there are things in the documents which have not been carried out by the bishops, perhaps for good reasons, but still.

 

[moon1234]

Actually, Catholics are not bound to hold those things that are not de fide teachings of the Church. The Church in the past has NEVER said the muslims worship the same God. It HAS stated that those not joined to the Church will have no salvation.

Unless the previous statements of the Church are in error, I am free to hold that position. If, however, the teaching of the Church has changed (and these previous teachings were ex cathedra; non-reformable) then we have a bigger problem.

 

[Mickey]

So would a Jew before Christ revealed the Trinity.

The Jews also reject the Trinity…yes.

So would those Gentiles St. Paul came across,

Nonsense. You are cherry picking from St Paul to justify the fasle god of the muslims.

If, for the sake of argument, it is necessary to acknowledge the Trinity of Persons to acknowledge God, whether one denies the Trinity through innocent ignorance or malice would cause the person to fail to acknowledge the true God (the person would be referring to some other thing which may or may not exist).

I don’t believe in the RC concept of invincible ignorance

I’m not arguing that they acknowledge Jesus as the Christ.

Thank God.

Could you specifically address the arguments I have made and show where the logic is lacking?

St John has already done that for you.
**“Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171, Koran)

“Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23, Bible)**

 

[moon1234]

Moon, I know how confusing and difficult this teaching is. But the part I bolded is the position of a “cafeteria Catholic”. Saying that you do not accept the teaching of the magisterium and will simply go your own way, picking and choosing single sentences or paragraphs out of individual documents, is not the way to “think with the Church.” Please reconsider this position and in humility accept what the Holy Father teaches - he has been a scholar in this area since probably before you were born.

You say that the position of an individual Muslim is different. That is exactly what the Holy Father is saying - but writ large. He is not saying and has never said that every Muslim (or every Jew) will be saved, but that God is merciful to those who do their best to follow him as well as they know how.

Certainly that shouldn’t stop you from engaging in religious discussion with those you know personally from other faiths. However, please show them a Christian at his/her best and be charitable and respectful in your discussions.

I talk to people of many faiths. When pressed by THEM I just remind them that Chist founded ONE Church and that is the Catholic Church. Not the muslim religion, not a breakaway protestant Church, not wicca, etc. That usually causes some problems, but I will not whitewash the faith. Christ turned over the tables of those investing his Father’s house. He did not sit down and have a discussion with them.

Discussion has ONE goal, conversion. Anything else is just talk.

 

[Reuben_J]

I would like to add that it is unlikely that most Catholics have even read all of the Council documents. And even if a Catholic has read them, understanding them may be difficult. Weren’t the documents meant mainly for the bishops, rather than the faithful? I could be wrong about that. The Catechism, perhaps, will tell us what we are obliged to accept, or not.

Also, in regards to the Council, it says in Sacrosanctum Concillium, Chapter Vl on Sacred Music, that Gregorian Chant is to be given pride of place in the liturgy. Well, Gregorian chant has hardly been given pride of place since the Council, but does this mean that bishops or priests who have gone against this directive have sinned? That would mean that a lot of them have sinned, if they know about this directive. Otherwise, I would think that they aren’t culpable. The point is, the documents are not easy to understand for the faithful. And there are things in the documents which have not been carried out by the bishops, perhaps for good reasons, but still.

I would not bring sin into all these. Probably the issue of the Muslims worshipping the same God does not concern most of us but the spirit that the Church has laid should guide us on our attitude and relationship with the Muslims. Similarly the Gregorian chant which has a place of pride and that should guide our attitude towards it and not to despise it.

 

[LilyM]

Legalism.

‘He who hears you hears Me’ is legalism?

Since when is it OK to ignore teachings promulgated by the successors of the Apostles gathered in Council?

 

[Denise1957]

I would not bring sin into all these. Probably the issue of the Muslims worshipping the same God does not concern most of us but the spirit that the Church has laid should guide us on our attitude and relationship with the Muslims. Similarly the Gregorian chant which has a place of pride and that should guide our attitude towards it and not to despise it.

I agree that sin needn’t be brought into this issue. Unless the church clearly teaches what we are to believe. I give my assent to whatever the Church requires us to believe, even if I don’t understand it. But narrowing down the specifics of what is required by us faithful is what is needed for this particular issue.

If the bishops (and clergy) have not sinned by ignoring the directive to use Gregorian chant, then I would think that the faithful also have not sinned if they don’t give assent to the idea of Muslims worshipping the same God. It’s a bit of a stickler, because they (Muslims) do worship the God of Abraham, but they do not have a full understanding, since they deny the Trinity. I think it’s a bit confusing, and not very clear. The Muslims aren’t necessarily culpable, since they can’t help it if they were born into Islam. Certainly our attitude should be charitable toward them, as much as possible. They are human beings, and as such, deserving of our respect.

 

[triumphguy]

Okay, so you are saying that everything in the council documents must be assented to by the faithful, or they are in a state of sin?

You tell me - just what are we required to believe?

This is what the First Vatican Council (1870) says:

. . . Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgement or by her ordinary and universal teaching [magisterium], proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. [1]

So when 2,221 Bishops (PRE VATICAN II BISHOPS AT THAT!!!) and a Pope promulgate NA we must assent, and not to do so is wilful disobedience.

 

[Denise1957]

You tell me - just what are we required to believe?

Good question. I was hoping that you could answer it. But also if you can answer the question of sin attached to what we are required to believe. You didn’t address that. And would it be a grave sin, or venial sin? And if the bishops and clergy don’t follow the directives of the council, have they sinned?

 

[triumphguy]

Nonsense. The muslim teaching is an ecumenical gesture. It has nothing to do with salvation of your soul.

You don’t get it. You keep reducing this to legalism, rather than seeking to understand exactly what the Council Fathers meant.

And since you don’t have a dog in the fight, I don’t really care what you believe, since as you have stated again and again you don’t care what our Pope teaches.

And if you can’t understand that God is ONE, TRUE, BEAUTIFUL and GOOD and is not not dependent on our labels for his glory then you will never “get it.”

A Dogmatic Constitution of the Church states that all may come to know God. ALL. Not some.

Even the Pope, or the most holy and learned saint that ever was cannot adequately describe God.

However, none of us are worthy of Salvation except through Christ,… but in our creation we were ordered towards the good and the beautiful and the true. So animists, pagans, pantheists, are all glimpsing the one God. And the monothesists are glimpsing the same God.

Imagine a room with one light-bulb. It doesn’t matter if you can’t explain how the light is produced you still get illuminated. It doesn’t matter if you hide under a blanket, the room is still lit. It doesn’t matter if you close your eyes. The light is still on. And it;s the same light.

This is what NA and Lumen Gentium affirm. They also affirm that the Abrahamic religions worship the same God.

To wilfully deny this is a sin of pride.

Amen.

End of story.

 

[PRmerger]

And yet…they don’t.
There is no both ways. One way does not worship the Trinitarian God…the other way does. Quite simple.

We are agreed on this.

Your uncharity towards protestants does not change the matter.

What have I said that was uncharitable?

 

[triumphguy]

Good question. I was hoping that you could answer it. But also if you can answer the question of sin attached to what we are required to believe. You didn’t address that. And would it be a grave sin, or venial sin? And if the bishops and clergy don’t follow the directives of the council, have they sinned?

You’ve got this weird tangent going which seems agenda driven.

See my above post for my answer to your question.

 

[jmcrae]

Nope. The thread is about Catholics trying to say that the muslims have the same God.

If a Catholic believes that the muslim god is NOT the same as the Christian Trinitarian God…does your Church tell them that they are sinning?

To assert that the Muslims worship “another god” is the same thing as to say that there is more than one God, since they cannot worship “another god” unless another god actually exists.

This is contrary to Christian doctrine.

In order to remain consistent with revealed truth, we can only say that they worship God (since obviously they do), but that they do not understand His true nature.

 

[adrift]

No, they don’t. Nor do Mormons, Hindus, Christadelphians, et al.

Typing on a mobile phone, adrift. Not the most efficient way to type fast

Oh I wasn’t trying to be a smart Aleck by asking what you meant. I have found all sorts of new words here. I tried doing a Google search to see if it wasn’t just a word I didn’t know. The question was sincere. Sometimes when I am in a hurry, my words are not correctly spelled either. So I hope you didn’t take offense, because it was a sincere question.

So you believe that they just worship a false god? What false god is it? I believe that there is a difference in worshiping a god that is false and worshiping a false understanding of God.

 

[Melchior_1]

Jesus did say no one gets to the Father EXECPT through him.

This is exactly what people say to deny our Mother, Please be careful when lifting passages from Scripture without context.

I can’t find ANYTHING before VII or LG that explicitly states that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics.

I can name one; the Old Testament.

 

[Melchior_1]

I talk to people of many faiths. When pressed by THEM I just remind them that Chist founded ONE Church and that is the Catholic Church. Not the muslim religion, not a breakaway protestant Church, not wicca, etc. That usually causes some problems, but I will not whitewash the faith. Christ turned over the tables of those investing his Father’s house. He did not sit down and have a discussion with them.

Discussion has ONE goal, conversion. Anything else is just talk.

You take the one example of Christ overturning tables versus the several examples of Him letting his actions speak and Him showing charity when He enters people’s homes.

Christ let His actions speak loudly on the Cross.

 

[Mickey]

You don’t get it.

Yes I do.

You keep reducing this to legalism, rather than seeking to understand exactly what the Council Fathers meant.

I know what VII was trying to do…I don’t think it worked too well.

And since you don’t have a dog in the fight, I don’t really care what you believe

Thank you. I appreciate that. You are also free to believe that muslims worship the same God as the Christians.

And if you can’t understand that God is ONE, TRUE, BEAUTIFUL and GOOD and is not not dependent on our labels for his glory then you will never “get it.”

Again. I get it quite well. Let us look at St John again:

I and the Father are one.
Jn 10:30

To wilfully deny this is a sin of pride.

Careful with that beam in your eye.

 

[Mickey]

In order to remain consistent with revealed truth, we can only say that they worship God (since obviously they do), but that they do not understand His true nature.

I do not know who or what they worship…but it is not the Trinitarian God. They will tell you this to your face.