How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

[Reuben_J]

“best bet to getting to heaven is if someone is Catholic???” The best bet is to accept the Lord Jesus as your personal Savior!

Jn 6:53

 

[pcogperson]

How is it that you know anything about Jesus without the Catholic Church, pcogperson?

If the Church got it wrong in a lot of areas, how can you trust the canon of Scripture, then, which was discerned for you by the CC.

Do you think she erred in proclaiming 3 John to be inspired? Did she err in excluding the letters of Clement?

You cannot know what’s inspired and what’s not without the authority of the CC.

John 14:17.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[pcogperson]

"Catholics always ask, “Where do you find Scripture alone as the supreme authority for faith in the Bible?” The answer should be obvious since there is no higher authority than almighty God and He has exalted His Word above all things and equal to His holy name (Psalm 138:2). The Bible’s supreme authority is established by its divine origin. It is the most authoritative, influential and powerful book ever written. God chose forty men to pen His word as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). The writers claimed they were transmitting the very word of God, infallible and authoritative to the highest degree. God’s word is sufficient to function as the sole, infallible rule of faith because the Bible does not refer to any higher rule of faith. Everything that we must know, understand and believe to become a Christian is found in the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

The Apostle Paul wrote: “from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 3:15-16). All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (2 Tim. 3:15-16)."

proclaimingthegospel.org/

 

[PRmerger]

John 14:17.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

The Apostle Paul wrote: “from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 3:15-16).

Well, as the Scriptures to which Paul was referring that his readers knew “from infancy” were only the OT, are you proclaiming that you are a Sola Old Testament advocate?

For that is what this verse is suggesting. There was no NT at the time of the readers’ “infancy”, right?

 

[PRmerger]

John 14:17.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Could you please answer how it is that you know that Hebrews is inspired without the authority of the CC telling you that it was inspired?

 

[Reuben_J]

John 14:17.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Amen too except that how is this relevant to the topic of the thread.

 

[PRmerger]

"Catholics always ask, “Where do you find Scripture alone as the supreme authority for faith in the Bible?” The answer should be obvious since there is no higher authority than almighty God and He has exalted His Word above all things and equal to His holy name (Psalm 138:2). The Bible’s supreme authority is established by its divine origin. It is the most authoritative, influential and powerful book ever written. God chose forty men to pen His word as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). The writers claimed they were transmitting the very word of God, infallible and authoritative to the highest degree.

Amen!

But there is nothing that declares in the Scriptures that His Word is contained ONLY to the Scriptures.

That is a man-made tradition that you have been duped into believing, pcog.

You heard a man say it, who heard another man say it, who heard another man say it…

but no one ever read, “All of God’s Word is contained in the Scriptures” in a single page of the Bible.

God’s word is sufficient to function as the sole, infallible rule of faith because the Bible does not refer to any higher rule of faith.

There is no Bible verse to support this man-made tradition, pcog.

Everything that we must know, understand and believe to become a Christian is found in the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

Let’s see what that verse says:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 15: 1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Nothing in there says that everything we need to believe is found in the written word of God.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Troll vaporized.
Return to topic.

 

[clem456]

Well no one knows if Muslims are going to heaven. As far as we are concerned, the best bet to getting to heaven is if someone is Catholic. Or at least the best bet to having a good understanding of moral life is if one listens to the Church (Its not a secret that there are devout Muslims who think it brings God pleasure if they murder a lot of infidels). Hence we must always try to evangelize them when presented with the opportunity. We can start our conversations by using the common ground i.e. “we both believe in the same God, right?..”

As long as we are betting on something completely unknowable, one could wager there are more baptized Catholics -not- in heaven than are. If that’s the case, then betting on membership in the physical Church as the best way to get to heaven might be a bad wager, statistically speaking. Fortunately for us, there are no statistics or percentages, no certainty on which to base a wager. If we believe we are guaranteed a result, we can fall into pride and presumption, least that’s how it works for me. If God is merely a transaction or a safe wager, our conversion comes to an end and we stagnate, there is nothing but to wait for the expected results, like waiting for the lottery payoff to show up in the mail.

Rather than a calculated wager, we have a relationship to work on, with Christ and others. Rather than having a certain outcome, it is messy and difficult and requires constant conversion.

All we know is, when someone is called to God in paradise, It is a given that they are part of Christ’s one true Church, by definition they are in union with Him. Muslim, HIndu, agnostic, all who are brought by God’s grace to heaven are in union with Christ’s one true Church, which is the Catholic Church that proposes this truth to everyone.

 

[adrift]

I am a non-believer so my opinion is not worth much, but here it is.

To those that think Muslims (among others) do not worship the same God/one true God as Christians bc they deny the trinity, consider the history of the doctrine of the trinity. In the first couple centuries after Jesus lived, weren’t there lots of heresies that were condemned (eventually) by the Catholic/Christian Church? I am referring to beliefs like Arianism and Sabellianism.

Would you say the Arians et al also did not worship the one true God? Their understanding of God/Jesus was different than yours, but surely you would not deny they worshipped the same God. Their understanding of God was different, but it was still the God of Abraham right? So it seems to me that Muslims, Jews, and even a generic monotheist who does not practice a religion believe in the same one true God. It’s just not as accurate or complete as the regular Christian idea of God.

Those are my thoughts. Maybe I’m wrong.

:twocents:

 

[hrdcorecatholic]

So I guess it is safe to say that we believe in one God but have a different understanding.
We have the same start but different endings?
sorry just trying to summarize what you guys have said/posted.

 

[PRmerger]

So I guess it is safe to say that we believe in one God but have a different understanding.
We have the same start but different endings?
sorry just trying to summarize what you guys have said/posted.

'zactly.

 

[Ginkgo100]

How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

There are several incorrect understandings about God in your explanation. One of them is that God is defined by His relationships. God is defined by Himself, and it is possible to acknowledge and worship Him while misunderstanding His relationships.

But a more profound misunderstanding is that God is one being among many that could be imagined to exist. Your example of your friend shows this misunderstanding. The Christian God, the God of Abraham, is that Being Who is Being itself. The Muslim understanding of God, called Tawhid, likewise sees God as that Being Who is Being itself. The Quran says in Sura 112, “He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute … And there is none like unto Him.” Therefore, they worship the same God as Christians.

Of course Christians also acknowledge that Muslims have a flawed understanding of God. The same Sura I quoted above also says “He begetteth not, nor is He begotten,” which we know to be untrue, for God has revealed that in His unity, there exist a Begetter (the Father) and a Begotten (the Son); also a Proceeder (the Holy Spirit). But then again, none of us can fully or correctly understand God in every way. A flawed understanding of the One God does not mean one worships a different or imaginary being. For example, many many Christians seem to misunderstand the Trinity, thinking of the Three Persons as “parts” of the one God (in reality, God has no parts). This flawed understanding does not make their worship false.

Does that help?

 

[steve_b]

Yes, in the same way that Muslims worship the God of Abraham without Christ and the HS.

Islam is based on what the sons of Ishmael recieved as spiritual descendants of Abraham. As a result, what has been revealed to them is limited, and predates all of these revelations of God by Himself.

God told Abraham that the faith would be passed through His son Isaac. Abraham made a plea for his other son, Ishmael. Because Abraham loved God, God blessed his other son also.

Gen 17:18-27
And Abraham said to God, “O that Ishmael might live in your sight!”
19 God said, “No, but your wife Sarah shall bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; I will bless him and make him fruitful and exceedingly numerous; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year.” 22 And when he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.

23 Then Abraham took his son Ishmael and all the slaves born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And his son Ishmael was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised;

Ishmael was also circumcised, and given a blessing by the GoKd of Abraham. It is upon this basis that the CC acknowledges that the descendants of Ishmael worship the God of Abraham.

This blessing came millenia before the Koran, and the invention of modern Islam.

very good explanation
It recognizes a truth. It’s not ignoring or pushing aside, all the errors that are seen in other faith groups.

 

[Eufrosnia]

As long as we are betting on something completely unknowable, one could wager there are more baptized Catholics -not- in heaven than are. If that’s the case, then betting on membership in the physical Church as the best way to get to heaven might be a bad wager, statistically speaking. Fortunately for us, there are no statistics or percentages, no certainty on which to base a wager. If we believe we are guaranteed a result, we can fall into pride and presumption, least that’s how it works for me. If God is merely a transaction or a safe wager, our conversion comes to an end and we stagnate, there is nothing but to wait for the expected results, like waiting for the lottery payoff to show up in the mail.

Rather than a calculated wager, we have a relationship to work on, with Christ and others. Rather than having a certain outcome, it is messy and difficult and requires constant conversion.

All we know is, when someone is called to God in paradise, It is a given that they are part of Christ’s one true Church, by definition they are in union with Him. Muslim, HIndu, agnostic, all who are brought by God’s grace to heaven are in union with Christ’s one true Church, which is the Catholic Church that proposes this truth to everyone.

But this too is presuming the unknown. The truth is, we do know that the Catholic Church has the sacraments given directly by God. We know it has the fullness of truth. So the best bet that someone has to discover the truth and hence to live in a way that is necessary for salvation and the good of fellow man can be found in the Catholic Church.

You are confusing the bet with who made it here. The best bet (or more accurately the most reasonable course of action) one can take regarding the nature of the Transcendent is the Catholic Church. By faith we also know that the best help one can get is also in the Catholic Church (Sacraments).

That is really all we know. It might indeed be the case that no non-Catholic since the advent of the Catholic Church after Christ will ever reach heaven. So as far as we are concerned we need to get people to the Church.

A word about the “personal relationship” idea here. I think there needs to be clarification that the Church comes first in order to have a proper relationship to begin with. I’ve seen many a actor/actress who claim they don’t believe in religion but they have a personal relationship with Christ/God etc. It just shows the confusion. Its like saying I know Eufrosnia but have no clue about who I am and what I stand for. So just thought I will clarify.

 

[PRmerger]

A word about the “personal relationship” idea here. I think there needs to be clarification that the Church comes first in order to have a proper relationship to begin with. I’ve seen many a actor/actress who claim they don’t believe in religion but they have a personal relationship with Christ/God etc. It just shows the confusion. Its like saying I know Eufrosnia but have no clue about who I am and what I stand for. So just thought I will clarify.

Indeed.

Religion comes from the Latin word relgare, which means “relationship”.

Thus, saying one rejects “religion” (or relationship) but still has a “relationship” (or religion) with Jesus is nonsensical.

 

[benjohnson]

Thus, saying one rejects “religion” (or relationship) but still has a “relationship” (or religion) with Jesus is nonsensical.

Well said!

One of the ideas that gets me in a fighting mood is the idea that you can exchange ‘religion’ in favor of ‘spirituality.’

 

[clem456]

But this too is presuming the unknown. The truth is, we do know that the Catholic Church has the sacraments given directly by God. We know it has the fullness of truth. So the best bet that someone has to discover the truth and hence to live in a way that is necessary for salvation and the good of fellow man can be found in the Catholic Church.

You are confusing the bet with who made it here. The best bet (or more accurately the most reasonable course of action) one can take regarding the nature of the Transcendent is the Catholic Church. By faith we also know that the best help one can get is also in the Catholic Church (Sacraments).

That is really all we know. It might indeed be the case that no non-Catholic since the advent of the Catholic Church after Christ will ever reach heaven. So as far as we are concerned we need to get people to the Church.

A word about the “personal relationship” idea here. I think there needs to be clarification that the Church comes first in order to have a proper relationship to begin with. I’ve seen many a actor/actress who claim they don’t believe in religion but they have a personal relationship with Christ/God etc. It just shows the confusion. Its like saying I know Eufrosnia but have no clue about who I am and what I stand for. So just thought I will clarify.

I’m wasn’t debating the value of religion at all.
I was more referring to transactional or “membership” spirituality.
The existence of the Church does not guarantee a Catholic heaven, nor does it preclude one who is not a physical member from getting there. It is very possible for one to faithfully attend Mass for a lifetime and not have a relationship with God, and vice versa.

If I could wager on my chances at heaven as a practicing Catholic…

honestly I would not wager on anything of the sort. It’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship that always needs work on my part. And for me, It’s not spiritually profitable to count my markers while I’m sitting at the table. (my apologies to Kenny Rogers)

 

[PRmerger]

Well said!

One of the ideas that gets me in a fighting mood is the idea that you can exchange ‘religion’ in favor of ‘spirituality.’

Yes. The “spiritual but not religious” mantra is merely a way of saying that someone wants the “feel good” parts of religion (i.e. intimacy with God, a satisfaction of the deep longing in our heart), without the obligation (i.e. repentance, re-conforming our morality to God’s morality, sacrifice).

It’s like wanting the Resurrection without the Crucifixion. Or an Easter without a Good Friday.