How can I trust the Pope

[whichwaytogo47]

Noted and agreed

 

[godisgood77]

have a huge problem with his reliability if he’s bringing schismatic churches under the approval of the Holy Se of Rome

I actually think that is one of the Pope’s jobs… to bring people to the Church.

I trust his judgement on this and believe that it will be a good for the Church and the Catholic people of China.

 

[Axsenex]

Winston Churchill on Neville Chamberlain eulogy

“History with its flickering lamp stumbles along the trail of the past, trying to reconstruct its scenes, to revive its echoes, and kindle with pale gleams the passion of former days. What is the worth of all this? The only guide to a man is his conscience; the only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions. It is very imprudent to walk through life without this shield, because we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations; but with this shield, however the fates may play, we march always in the ranks of honour.”

 

[whichwaytogo47]

I actually think that is one of the Pope’s jobs… to bring people to the Church.

True, but schismatic churches can draw people AWAY from the church rather than TOWARDS it. Sometimes, you must have principle in order for people to come into the Church. Watered-down Christianity doesn’t help attract an audience.

Winston Churchill on Neville Chamberlain eulogy

“History with its flickering lamp stumbles along the trail of the past, trying to reconstruct its scenes, to revive its echoes, and kindle with pale gleams the passion of former days. What is the worth of all this? The only guide to a man is his conscience; the only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions. It is very imprudent to walk through life without this shield, because we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations; but with this shield, however the fates may play, we march always in the ranks of honour.”

Chamberlin sought peace and a result of his desire for peace, he had war. Hitler promised peace only to conquer Poland the next day. Churchill, Nixon, and Trump believe in peace thru strength. Churchill and Nixon were solid in the foreign policy arena and while Trump isn’t, his advisers Pompeo and Bolton are. If he doesn’t trust his advisers, it will take longer to get a deal done than if Bolton and Pompeo help Trump with North Korea, Russia, and China.

 

[JSAD]

You don’t have to…trust God instead

 

[Randolph]

“It is simply not true that there are two churches in China…”

What planet are you living in?? I can tell you from first hand experience that the underground Catholic Church in China is real and is full of courageous faithful who are loyal to Rome—as opposed to their counterpart —the Chinese Patriotic Church—that is loyal to the Chinese government. Communist China, for many decades, have tried to undermine and persecute the underground Church… The faithful in the underground Church do not want the Chinese government to interfer with the appointment of bishops because they don’t want the teachings from their shepherds to be tainted with state-sanctioned lies and propaganda. As importantly, with the new agreement, there are now great/grave concerns that the faithful in the underground Church will be exposed to greater dangers. I ache for the underground faithful, and I fear for their safety. Rest assured that they, along with Cardinal Zen who himself lived through it, are very bewildered and disappointed—putting it charitably.

You can spin the truth and throw in numbers and figures any way you want to make your point. The truth remains true…affirmed by millions of Underground Chinese Catholics.

 

[Genesis315]

As has been mentioned, you don’t have to trust the Pope (except when he is making a definitive judgment for the whole Church on a point of doctrine). You don’t have to like him. You don’t have to like what he does.

His authority comes not from his personal merits–which may be many or very few–but from his office and its relationship to the Church as constituted by Jesus Christ. In His infinite and divine wisdom, He did not give you and me a say in these matters (we can always petition Him directly of course). There is nothing contrary to the faith in this arrangement and it is the Pope’s job to extirpate schisms–whether as a practical matter this reunion bears the intended fruit is another matter. We shall see.

In the meantime, we should petition the Head of Church in all places, Jesus Christ, for the unity and well-being of the Church in China.

 

[Randolph]

In the Gospels, when asked if Peter loved Christ, Peter said “Yes”. Christ then gave Peter the responsibility to tend and feed His sheep…

The sheep need their shepherds to nurture them and to protect them…

 

[tafan2]

I am spinning nothing. Here is an excerpt from the Catholic World Report, written by someone who seems to oppose the new deal BTW, that pretty much confirms everything I have said:

The Catholic Church in China: Historical context and the current situation – Catholic World Report

The most common question I receive about the Church in China is, “Aren’t there two communities in China: a ‘true Church’ that exists underground and a ‘false church’ that is run by the communist party?”

This assumption has been disseminated for several decades, and it has served more to confuse than clarify the reality of one, but somewhat divided, Catholic Church in China. There is no such thing as a “state-run Catholic Church” in China; there is a state-monitored association, the CCPA, that was established to oversee how Catholics worship. The tension in China, if there is much tension at all nowadays, between the so-called “underground” and “aboveground” Catholic communities has not been about whether one community is more or less “Catholic” than the other, but rather around the question of “selling out” to state influence over the day-to-day operations of Catholic life—especially regarding the issue of how bishops are selected and ordained. Chinese Catholics view themselves as part of “one suffering Catholic Church” that is still working out how its two communities can come to an agreement about how to best practice the Catholic faith under a communist government.
Few non-Chinese know that priests and bishops in many—perhaps most—Roman Catholic dioceses in China collaborate in the administration and evangelization of their regions. One example will serve to illustrate how this operates. In the diocese of Guiyang, the state-recognized ordinary of the diocese was Andrew Wang Chongyi (1919-2017), who died last year as the administrator of the diocese at the age of 97. The unregistered, “underground” bishop during Wang’s service was Bishop Augustine Hu Daguo (1921-2011). When I met these two bishops—one “aboveground” and the other “underground”—I merely had to cross the hall at the bishops’ residence; both men lived in the same building and served their respective communities in a spirit of fraternal collaboration.

In addition, it is common that the CCPA offices attached to diocesan chanceries or cathedrals are a diversion and are not used for any official Catholic business. CCPA offices are often identified with exterior signs, but those entering the front door discover that the interior space is merely a storage area. That is, the CCPA is in many places little more than a sign, and is essentially ignored by the bishop and his clergy. Even the CCPA office at the cathedral in Kunming, administered by the excommunicated bishop Joseph Ma Yinglin, is nothing more than a sign with an empty room inside. Again, it is important to know that the “line” between the sanctioned and unsanctioned Catholic communities is often nonexistent, and that even the state-run CCPA is often no more than a façade at the officially-sanctioned cathedrals of Roman Catholic dioceses.

TBC…

 

[tafan2]

continuation…

I am not denying there are underground Bishops, priests, and many Catholics who follow them. I simply am stating there are not two churches. The Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not a church. It is a government entity whose as been given the job to supervise the Catholic Church. Obviously, Rome does not recognize any of its authority. But the Bishops, all but (I think) seven, who were appointed through the decades by the CPCA, have been subsequently recognized by Rome. They are part of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics who worship at churches supervised by the CPCA are not in schism, they are part of the Catholic Church.

Yes, as I have said, there is some overlap between the two “churches” (for lack of a better way to distinguish them. But in many places there is not.

I am not spinning anything, if anyone is spinning something it are those, such as yourself, who refer to a “Chinese Patriotic Church”. I would agree that the faithful do not want the Chinese government to interfere with Church, with the appointment of Bishops. But that is not reality It is not the reality that the Vatican as accepted as a fact for a long time. The reality now, as far as I can tell, is the following:

1. There are no more underground Bishops being ordained, as per Vatican directive in 1995
2. Without some level of agreement as to cooperation of appointment of Bishops, it is all in the hands of the Communists. And subsequent to the ordination, the Church finds itself in the position to having to recognize the illicit ordination and appointment simply due to the desire to maintain availability of sacraments to millions of Catholics in China

 

[Randolph]

Tafan… Don’t be naive, and do your homework carefully and discern facts from fictions… Have you even been to China? If not, maybe you should…

If you did, you would not see any visible signs, or official recognition, of the existence of the underground Church because it is officially illegal and forbidden… If you saw a visible “Catholic” Church there, it would most likely be a state-sanctioned patriotic church. The word “underground” means just that “underground”. There have been many things that happened between the Underground Church and Rome that have not been known to the outside world for good reason.

The testaments of millions of Chinese Catholics, deceased or living, can not be ignored or silenced. There are many underground Chinese Catholics now living in the West. Find them and talk to them. They will tell you the truth, and you will understand why I referred your comments as a result of spins.

 

[tafan2]

Randoloph, I have been doing my homework. I have not been to China. I have NOT once claimed that there is any official recognition of the underground Church, I have acknowledge that it is officially illegal. I have claimed that there has been recognition by Rome of CPCA appointed bishops.

I have been doing my homework and presenting the facts as I have found them for the past few days. So far the only fact that I have stated that has been disputed by anyone is when you claimed there are two churches in China, one underground and one schimsmatic Communist Church. That is false. The CPCA is not a Church. It does illicitly appoint bishops. Those bishops enter into schism when they are ordained, but since 1981, almost all of them have requested and received recognition by Rome and their excommunication was lifted. This is a fact. It can be proven by simply reading the letter of Pope Benedict you selectively posted on another thread:

"Other Pastors, however, under the pressure of particular circumstances, have consented to receive episcopal ordination without the pontifical mandate, but have subsequently asked to be received into communion with the Successor of Peter and with their other brothers in the episcopate. The Pope, considering the sincerity of their sentiments and the complexity of the situation, and taking into account the opinion of neighbouring Bishops, by virtue of his proper responsibility as universal Pastor of the Church, has granted them the full and legitimate exercise of episcopal jurisdiction. This initiative of the Pope resulted from knowledge of the particular circumstances of their ordination and from his profound pastoral concern to favour the reestablishment of full communion. "

Correct me on any facts I have wrong, and try to be specific. I am not denying the testaments of millions of Chinese Catholics who have worshipped in the undergroudnm Church. I have done my homework, no one has disputed of the facts I have discovered, and I have discerned. I have discerned that there is NO good solution to the complex and tragic situation to the Church in China. And doing nothing is also not a good solution.

If people opposed to the current agreement (which will admittedly have mixed results, like all similar aggreements in the past) took their position to its logical conclusion, you would advocate for Rome to quit recognizing, perhaps even withdraw previous recognition, of all CPCA appointed bishops, and to again allow unsupervised, secret ordinations only, to tell the all Chinese Catholics their only option to access the sacraments is to seek martyrdom.

 

[tafan2]

I agree, but they have one now, and the Church has to deal with reality.

 

[Randolph]

So far the only fact that I have stated that has been disputed by anyone is when you claimed there are two churches in China, one underground and one schimsmatic Communist Church. That is false. The CPCA is not a Church. It does illicitly appoint bishops. Those bishops enter into schism when they are ordained

This makes no sense!!! If the CPCA is not a Church, how could it “illicitly appoint” bishops? And how could these bishops enter into schism when they are not part of a church as you claimed. I would even go further to say that there are the underground catholic Church, the CPCA church (just another name for what has been known as the patriotic church), and other protestant churches (underground and otherwise). That makes is at least two churches if my math is correct…

There were pastors what once were illicitly ordained, and were later accepted by Rome. This happened not in just China, but in other parts of the world throughout history of the Church.

you would advocate for Rome to quit recognizing, perhaps even withdraw previous recognition, of all CPCA appointed bishops, and to again allow unsupervised, secret ordinations only, to tell the all Chinese Catholics their only option to access the sacraments is to seek martyrdom.

This is a lie. I trust you know better than attaching attributes to others that are false. Below was what I wrote:

You should learn more about what underground Catholics have gone through and suffered for centuries in China. You would then see for yourself that, by attending the underground Church, they actually chose persecution/martyrdom. Persecution and martyrdom come to fruition in many forms. One of which is via choice. Among many examples: Christ could have saved His life had he chosen to deny that he was the Son of God; St. Thomas More could have saved his life had he chosen to go along with King Henry VIII about adultery; The singing Carmelites could have saved their lives had they chosen to renounce the Catholic faith; etc…

Lastly, I will leave you with the last Beatitude:
“Blessed are they who are persecuted for my sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[whichwaytogo47]

I have NOT once claimed that there is any official recognition of the underground Church,

While you may not have been spinning, you have certainly been splitting hairs. The recognition (or in this case the lack of recognition) of the Chinese government of the underground church is completely and totally irrelevant. If there’s an underground church, there’s a 2nd church in my opinion. The CPCA which is not recognized by the Vatican nor should it ever be is a government-sanctioned church which is the 1st and illegitimate church. It doesn’t matter if the CPCA is a church in your definition or not - it still has a presence. The most dangerous church is not one that is overt in its doctrine but rather subtle subliminal messages that are meant to betray its followers.

You are stating your opinions as fact and dismissing other opinions as false.

 

[tafan2]

This makes no sense!!! If the CPCA is not a Church, how could it “illicitly appoint” bishops? And how could these bishops enter into schism when the are ordained for them not being a church as you claimed. I would even go further to say that there are the underground catholic Church, the CPCA church (just another name for what has been known as the patriotic church), and other protestant churches (underground and otherwise). That makes is at least two churches if my math is correct…

There were pastors what once were illicitly ordained, and were later accepted by Rome. This happened not in just China, but in other parts of the world throughout history of the Church.

From the article, sympathetic to your viewpoint, which I referenced above:

"There is no such thing as a “state-run Catholic Church” in China; there is a state-monitored association, the CCPA, that was established to oversee how Catholics worship. "

From the Wikipedia article on the CPCA

" The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association (simplified Chinese: 中国天主教爱国会; traditional Chinese: 中國天主教愛國會; pinyin: Zhōngguó Tiānzhǔjiào Àiguó Huì ), abbreviated CPA , CPCA or CCPA, is an organization established in 1957 by the People’s Republic of China’s Religious Affairs Bureau to supervise mainland China’s Catholics.[1]"

It appoints bishops and finds another valid bishop to ordain them. To answer your question “how could these bishops enter into schism when the are ordained for them not being a church as you claimed”, any person who is ordained a Bishop without approval from Rome becomes automatically excommunicated.

This is a lie. I trust you know better than attaching attributes to others that are false. Below was what I wrote:

It was presented as an opinion. And its is an opinion obtained of taking the statements of people who oppose this agreement to their logical conclusion. I might be wrong, but an opinion honestly obtained cannot be a lie.

 

[whichwaytogo47]

I might be wrong, but an opinion honestly obtained cannot be a lie.

I agree. We should inform our consciences and our opinions but I’d concur. Just try to not state things as facts if someone can have a different opinion. I’d agree, though, that opinions you have different levels of being informed or ignorance.

 

[tafan2]

While you may not have been spinning, you have certainly been splitting hairs. The recognition of the Chinese government of the underground church is completely and totally irrelevant. If there’s an underground church, there’s a 2nd church in my opinion. The CPCA which is not recognized by the Vatican nor should it ever be is a government-sanctioned church which is the 1st and illegitimate church. It doesn’t matter if the CPCA is a church in your definition or not - it still has a presence. The most dangerous church is not one that is overt in its doctrine but rather subtle subliminal messages that are meant to betray its followers.

You are stating your opinions as fact and dismissing other opinions as false.

This is really frustrating. I never even once brought up the issue of the government recognizing the underground church until I was accused of making the statement. It is not splitting hairs, I just never said it. Nor would I, I understand what an underground church means.

There cannot be two churches if the bishops of the underground “church” and the CPCA appoinged Bishops are both recognized as legitimate bishops by the Holy See.

I am trying to be clear as to when I state facts and when I state opinions. If I have not been clear, I apologize.
Let me try to clear things up. These are the items I believe to be facts, they are not my opinions. If I am misinformed, please let me know:

1. All by a few ( I believe 7) CPCA appointed bishops have been recognized as Rome and are now legitimate Bishops of the Catholic Church. The number of CPCA appointed bishops I have come across in multiple sources is around 60
2. Rome said there were not to be more secret ordinations of underground bishops in 1995 without prior approval. I have found no evidence of subsequent ordinations. The number of underground Bishops is estimated to be around 30. No one knows for sure becomes some of them may still be excercising their ministry in secret. Even the Vatican often learns of the Bishops well after their ordination.
3. Pope Benedict worked jointly with the Chinese government in appointing at least 2 bishops.
4. in 2011, the CPCA again appointed two (I might have the number wrong, I have typing from memory) bishops without Rome’s approval. These have subsequently been recognized by Rome.
5. There are not two churches in China. The CPCA is not a church. It is a government entity to supervise the catholic church. It, obviously, is not recognized by Rome as having authority to do so.
6. The CPCA appointed bishops and priests now say the correct Roman Canon, in the vernacular, including praying for the Pope out loud. It used to be common for most priests to whisper this part of the mass, as it was seen by the communist authorities as a sign of disloyalty.
7. It is not unprecedented that the Church has allowed communist governments a say in Bishop appointments. Indeed, it was done throughout the Eastern bloc countries of Europe, it is done in Vietnam today.

To be continued…

 

[tafan2]

continuation…

Opinions:

My opinion is that the situation of the Catholic Church in China is tragic and complex. There are no good solutions. People who are opposing the new agreement seem to me to be misinformed, and the ones who spin the situation. Never do they mention that it has been Rome’s policy to recognize the illicit Bishops for decades. Never do they mention that Pope Benedict collaborated with the communist in naming two bishops.

I do not know if the current agreement will work out well. I understand why it is being reached. I think the terms of the agreement are presented by the opposition as being more in favor of the communists than may be the case (based on reading the comments made by the Vatican Secretary of State). It will likely have mixed results, as can be expected. I do think it is likely a step forward, and I feel like I understand why Rome is entering into the agreement.

There: I have not split any hairs. I have delineated my facts from my opinions. And all statements are consistent with other posts I have made the last few days on the topic.

 

[Randolph]

Tafan… An article “sympathetic” to my view point (whatever that means) does not reflect my view point, nor does it mean that the opinion of the writer is correct. This is a form of a strawman argument. Attaching negative attributes to others, then criticize them with those attributes. I urge you to spend more than “a few days” doing your homework on this very complicated topic. Perhaps, a good place to start is to take to heart the opinions of Cardinal Zen who lived through it all both in China and in Hong Kong. The good Cardinal has the respect and admiration of the underground Chinese Catholics. In my humble opinion, he is their voice.