How can I trust the Pope

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I remember you said you are a young adult. We have had conversations before.
Perhaps your memories are from early childhood if you lived in China…or what you understood then. Not to discredit what you are saying but to try and see the issue perspectively.
Bless being so young still!
 
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tafan2 said:
There cannot be two churches if the bishops of the underground “church” and the CPCA appoinged Bishops are both recognized as legitimate bishops by the Holy See.
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So if the CPCA is NOT a church, why would the Vatican (the Holy Se) recognize its bishops? I don’t see how the CPCA could come into compliance with the Vatican that would make it legitimate.
 
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The author of the article opposes this agreement, as do you. That is what I meant by sympathetic to your view point. Since both the article and yourself is opposed to the new agreement, it seemed reasonable to use those terms. I fully acknowledge there may be items that do not reflect your views in the article. Sorry, next time I will be more specific.
I will say, it is the one article opposing the new agreement which seems to accurately reflect the facts of the situation in China.

As to doing more homework, I will. But please help me out, tell me which of my facts are wrong.

I have read almost all that Cardinal Zen, and have watched his interviews, has to say on the topic. As I have stated more than once, his opinion certainly gives me pause.
 
They are Bishops because they are validly ordained. I did not believe anyone was disputing that. They were not ordained by the CPCA, they were selected and appointed by the CPCA. They were illicitly ordained, but the Vatican has since recognized them as legitimate (see the letter from Pope Benedict that I quoted). I am not advocating the Vatican make the CPCA legitimate. I am not claiming the Vatican has made it legitimate. It has simply, now formalized in the past it was done informally by Benedict) a role of the CPCA in selecting bishops.

As the author in the Catholic World Report article states:

The most common question I receive about the Church in China is, “Aren’t there two communities in China: a ‘true Church’ that exists underground and a ‘false church’ that is run by the communist party?”

This assumption has been disseminated for several decades, and it has served more to confuse than clarify the reality of one, but somewhat divided, Catholic Church in China. There is no such thing as a “state-run Catholic Church” in China; there is a state-monitored association, the CCPA, that was established to oversee how Catholics worship.

The author, Antholy Clark, is an expert in China and the church in China.
 
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tafan2 said:
They are Bishops because they are validly ordained. I did not believe anyone was disputing that. They were not ordained by the CPCA, they were selected and appointed by the CPCA
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You said that they weren’t a valid church, thus how could the bishops be validly ordained if not a valid church? Were they invalidly ordained (you stated illicitly ordained) and than somehow made validly ordained later?

Why does it confuse if there is an underground church that allegedly follows the Holy Se of Rome and a CPCA church that attempts to oversee but is an otherwise invalid church and thus claiming two churches? I don’t see how that confuses if your perception is that one church is legitimate and one illegitimate. I don’t even think it confuses the issue if CPCA attempts to supervise/control the underground church. Of course the Chinese government would have the flip-side interpretation that it had the legitimate church and the underground church was a fringe church it was skeptical of and shouldn’t trust.
 
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Not too long ago, I visited Auschwitz, and was in terror of what had happened there–the Jews, the Polish clergy, the political figures and others. While there, seeing my distraught, my tour person, who was also a historian, came to me. I asked him: “How could an atrocity of this great magnitude happened at this large scale for so many years? How could the world not know about and stop it?” He said the world did know, but by and large pretended to not to know. While the mass killing was going on, there were people who wrote about it the newspapers and in books. The Nazis on their end also put out propaganda and lies to discredit them… Unfortunately, people believed the propaganda and some actually, unknowingly, further spread them. History has repeated itself over and over again…
 
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What about this is not supportive of the underground churches? Do you really want the availability of the sacraments to be so difficult for the Chinese to gain access to?

I have absolutely no problem with this. Abandon your pride and stop judging the hearts of others. The first will be last and the last will be first. Those who are closest to the grace of God must be weary of how we lift up the umbrellas of pride to shield ourselves from his grace.
 
whichwaytogo47 said:
You said that they weren’t a valid church, thus how could the bishops be validly ordained if not a valid church? Were they invalidly ordained (you stated illicitly ordained) and than somehow made validly ordained later?
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An ordination, like all sacraments, is valid if it is performed by a proper minister (in this case a bishop with apostolic succession), follows the correct form, proper matter, and proper intent. The were not ordained by the CPCA, they were ordained by a valid bishop, using the correct form, matter, and intent. This is not under dispute by anyone, at least as far as I know.

They were illicitly ordained, in other words a valid ordination was performed against canon law. In this case they were illicit because it did not have the Church’s consent (with Bishops, that means the Pope’s consent). When someone performs or receives an ordination without ecclesiastical consent, the incur a sentence of automatic excommunication. In other words, they entered into schism at that point. Subsequently, they made a request to Rome to re-enter into communion with the Catholic Church, pledging their loyalty to the Pope. This was granted, along with recognition of their position, and the excommunication was lifted.
whichwaytogo47 said:
Why does it confuse if there is an underground church that allegedly follows the Holy Se of Rome and a CPCA church that attempts to oversee but is an otherwise invalid church and thus claiming two churches? I don’t see how that confuses if your perception is that one church is legitimate and one illegitimate.
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Because there are simply not two churches. The CPCA is not a church, it does not even claim to be one. Let me ask you a question and maybe this will help clear up the matter. Do you believe any bishop could be a bishop in two different Churches? I assume you believe the answer is no. Well, the CPCA Bishops are recognized as valid Bishops of Rome. So they cannot be bishops of another communist church. Nor do they claim to be so.

So anytime someone talks about the existence of two churches in China, a valid underground church and a schismatic government church, they are either misinformed or being misleading.
 
I will share something brief with you,Randolph. Memories. I must have been about your age now.
I lived a reasonably common life,studied,worked,and I was an athlete, played competive tennis which had me training and going to the club more than once a week.
At that time we used to hear there were " concentration camps" ( exactly those words ) in Argentina( Campos de concentración). And my parents,friends and I wondered what on earth they were talking about. It was times of dictatorship.
I cannot count the times we drove past the Escuela de Mecanica de la Armada,were the infamous tortures were carried out. It was on my way to the club.
I would have sworn then that it was crazy. I had no idea,none,zero,that this was going on.
It is over, but that naivete and simplicity we have when we are young…hold it dear. Very dear. It shields us from so many terrible things.
Bless my parents too,who took such loving care on me in those difficult times.
Just sharing as you did,Randolph.
 
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Ignorance is not bliss. Invincible ignorance can be dangerous. The truth will come out in time. But, often times and unfortunately, as history has taught, it will come at a very heavy price.
 
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You are welcome,Randolph.
For better or worse,I see persons.
Take care and have a great day!
 
You are the one who said I had not researched the situation close enough. I have presented the facts from what research I have done. I have asked for you to provide any correction or point me into the direction of facts that I have missed. Now, you just want to end the conversation. It is rather frustrating. I can come to no other conclusion than that you do not dispute any of my facts. You simply have discerned a different opinion on the matter, and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
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No, I did refute your points. Read my replies again. But I am now certain that you don’t want to accept them. It’s tiring repeating myself. I take the wisdom and opinions of Cardinal Zen over any “expert” in China any day. Cardinal Zen lived and shepherded his flock in mainland China, and witnessed the sufferings and persecutions of underground Catholics himself. It’s time move on as I don’t want to waste my time with you.

Do this experiment. Take it from a real source. Go to any group of underground Chinese Catholics and tell them that there is only one Catholic Church in China. The CPCA and the underground Church are essentially the same—not separate. And they like the new agreement that the Church can only work off the list of candidates for Bishops that the Chinese government provides. You can cite all the sources in the Internet you want to them. I can assure you that they will either laugh at your face, or walk away from you because you don’t know what you are talking about. Why? Because what they had lived through and witnessed contradicted your points.
 
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Randolph said:
I can assure you that they will either laugh at your face, or walk away from you because you don’t know what you are talking about. Why? Because what they had lived through and witnessed contradicted your points.
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I’ve already done that as well. And that’s true in both China and Vietnam. It’s a waste of time with tafan2 because we’re simply not going to convince him that there are two churches and he’s not going to convince us that there is one church so continuing to reply is moot.
 
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Ok, I have reviewed your posts. Yes, you have refuted some of my opinions. As to the facts about the Church in China I have presented, the only one you have disputed is that there are not two churches in China or perhaps that the CPCA is not a Church (essentially the same statement). Answer me, do you agree that the CPCA appointed bishops (except for perhaps 7) have been recognized and brought into communion with Rome? If they have, how can there be two churches.

I have not come across one statement by Cardinal Zen which claims the CPCA appointed bishops(that have been recognized by Rome) are not part of the Roman Catholic Church.

As to what a Catholic who worships in the underground Church would say, perhaps you are right. Pope Benedict explicitly pointed out the problem that recognized bishops have not all made that fact know publicly (that was in 2007) and it caused confusion among the faithful in China. He instructed them to do so. I assume most, if not all, of them have, as I have seen any recent documentation saying this is still a problem. But it was before, perhaps it still is.

So we come to different conclusions with regards to the new agreement being a good or bad thing, I get that. Let me ask you this, what should Rome do at this point in time?
Should it cooperate in any fashion with the government in naming future bishops? Should it cease to recognize any bishops illicitly ordained in China? Should it again allow underground church to ordain Bishops without Rome’s approval?
 
tafan2 said:
Which points do I have wrong?
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I think we can politely agree to disagree. Probably the best for both of us as we’re not going to convince one another. I think you have insight but see it differently than Randolph and I do. You’re entitled to your opinion.
 
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