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Lethe
Guest
Assuming heaven is a place, in the broadest sense of the word, can it really be heaven if anybody close to you (a child, parent, partner) has gone to hell/not gone to heaven? Could you really be happy knowing that? 
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Alindawyl
Guest
If people were sent to heaven or hell by God, then this way of thinking might have some merit. But we choose our own eternal destination based on the state of our soul at the end of our life. Did we choose in favor of God and therefore something greater than ourselves? Or did we choose in favor of self and deny that which is greater than mere humanity?
Since our fate is chosen by us, if we felt sad about someone making a choice of self over selflessness then we wouldn’t be acting selflessly ourselves. We would also belong in hell for wanting to control someone else’s fate and molding it to our own desires. We must respect the choice of those who end up in hell and leave it at that.
Since our fate is chosen by us, if we felt sad about someone making a choice of self over selflessness then we wouldn’t be acting selflessly ourselves. We would also belong in hell for wanting to control someone else’s fate and molding it to our own desires. We must respect the choice of those who end up in hell and leave it at that.
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Shredderbeam
Guest
Based on my understanding of what the Bible and the Church say Heaven is, I don’t think it’s really comparable to life on Earth. You would probably not be biologically human, so it’s hard for me to see individuals seeking out old friends, loved ones, and so on.
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liquidpele
Guest
I thought Jesus said that he was coming back to set up heaven *on Earth *at some point? It would then be strange if the two were not comparable.Based on my understanding of what the Bible and the Church say Heaven is, I don’t think it’s really comparable to life on Earth. You would probably not be biologically human, so it’s hard for me to see individuals seeking out old friends, loved ones, and so on.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
How can it be hell if people you love are there? Suppose you’re in hell but you’re surrounded by your loved ones, would you be happier than if you were in heaven alone?
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liquidpele
Guest
I fail to see how that answers the question in any way. Even if you could choose between the two, having to make that kind of decision is not really the “perfect happiness” that most people envision heaven as.How can it be hell if people you love are there? Suppose you’re in hell but you’re surrounded by your loved ones, would you be happier than if you were in heaven alone?
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Shredderbeam
Guest
Hmm, he did say that…maybe it was a metaphor, or perhaps the New Earth is totally unlike the Old Earth.I thought Jesus said that he was coming back to set up heaven *on Earth *at some point? It would then be strange if the two were not comparable.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Then perhaps people’s definition of ‘perfect happiness’ is at fault.
Actually, that is the crux of the matter. . .the original premise that somehow heaven could not by definition be perfectly happy unless one’s loved ones were there is the flaw.
I wasn’t asking people to choose but simply pointing out by making an obverse exactly what the flaw was --the idea that happiness HAD TO consist in having loved ones with us even if the loved ones had (as another poster noted) chosen freely to stay away from us (and God) forever.
Actually, that is the crux of the matter. . .the original premise that somehow heaven could not by definition be perfectly happy unless one’s loved ones were there is the flaw.
I wasn’t asking people to choose but simply pointing out by making an obverse exactly what the flaw was --the idea that happiness HAD TO consist in having loved ones with us even if the loved ones had (as another poster noted) chosen freely to stay away from us (and God) forever.
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Fran65
Guest
According to a couple of books that I’ve read recently (The Four Last Things and Hell & How to Avoid Hell - both published by TAN) hell would be such a terrible place and the people there in such a desperate and horrifying state that there will be no comfort from those around you. Those in hell would be so consumed by pain, terror, despair and horror that they would not be able to respond to others in any meaningful way - other than to torment each other. In addition, even if your loved ones were present seeing someone you love tormented and tortured would be an another source of horror and despair.
God deliver us from evil.
God deliver us from evil.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Lethe, a good (short) book by the author C. S. Lewis is “The Great Divorce.” You will find that it gives some excellent examples on this very subject which may aid your understanding.
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liquidpele
Guest
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Revelation 21:4)Then perhaps people’s definition of ‘perfect happiness’ is at fault.
Actually, that is the crux of the matter. . .the original premise that somehow heaven could not by definition be perfectly happy unless one’s loved ones were there is the flaw.
I wasn’t asking people to choose but simply pointing out by making an obverse exactly what the flaw was --the idea that happiness HAD TO consist in having loved ones with us even if the loved ones had (as another poster noted) chosen freely to stay away from us (and God) forever.
Just sayin’ … there is reason people think of heaven that way.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Yes, I agree, no sorrow or crying. . .
And that argues that one will not be sorry even if one’s loved ones are not there. God’s wiping away the tears may mean that His perfect understanding will allow us to perfectly understand and thus be comforted and joyful.
And that argues that one will not be sorry even if one’s loved ones are not there. God’s wiping away the tears may mean that His perfect understanding will allow us to perfectly understand and thus be comforted and joyful.
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liquidpele
Guest
Which raises basically the same question, why would no one cry when loved ones are in hell? Your “perfect understanding” comment is just saying “that’s how it is” with no real explanation.Yes, I agree, no sorrow or crying. . .
And that argues that one will not be sorry even if one’s loved ones are not there. God’s wiping away the tears may mean that His perfect understanding will allow us to perfectly understand and thus be comforted and joyful.
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Bluegoat
Guest
I was about to recommend just this book. It is also short and a very enjoyable read for an evening.Lethe, a good (short) book by the author C. S. Lewis is “The Great Divorce.” You will find that it gives some excellent examples on this very subject which may aid your understanding.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
That’s why I suggested the book. Because it isn’t something that can be given a sound bite answer, first; also, the ultimate answer is built on several foundations that need to be understood and accepted in light of the that understanding. I do highly recommend the book (C.S. Lewis was actually Anglican but the position on heaven/hell without loved ones certainly is one Catholics hold legitimately as well.)
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Tracyms1974
Guest
Hello everyone.
I have always wondered something similar to this question - so similar that I dont think it warrants the start of a new thread. We believe that the saints in Heaven pray for us, right? Easy enough to understand. However, like the original poster I see this as an easy opportunity for those in Heaven to become saddened and (eventually) overwhelmed by all the prayers they must make for the multitudes of people on earth who ask for them. The similar element here is sadness in Heaven. It also looks to me that in order to pray for the people still on earth they must have to know what is going on with the individual and thus be saddened by their situation (death in the family, terminal illness, loss of a job, child abuse, injustice of all kinds). How would we explain their ability to pray for all of us and remain happy?
Tracy
I have always wondered something similar to this question - so similar that I dont think it warrants the start of a new thread. We believe that the saints in Heaven pray for us, right? Easy enough to understand. However, like the original poster I see this as an easy opportunity for those in Heaven to become saddened and (eventually) overwhelmed by all the prayers they must make for the multitudes of people on earth who ask for them. The similar element here is sadness in Heaven. It also looks to me that in order to pray for the people still on earth they must have to know what is going on with the individual and thus be saddened by their situation (death in the family, terminal illness, loss of a job, child abuse, injustice of all kinds). How would we explain their ability to pray for all of us and remain happy?
Tracy
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Alindawyl
Guest
If there are any feelings of sorrow or sadness among those in heaven, it will be perfectly right and good for it to be there. So if the saints feel sorrow or sadness for the trials and tribulations of those on earth, it will be right and good rather than wrong and evil.
My own personal opinion on the matter is that the saints experience compassion for what we go through but do not suffer any negative emotions from it. They were in the thick of it themselves during their time on earth and many suffered greatly. They would tend to look at things from the perspective of those who overcame and were triumphant victors over sin thanks to the grace of God rather than staring at the moment and letting themselves be filled with pain and sorrow over something that matters not in the long run. How they’re able to do that I have no idea, as I’m still on earth and still dealing with life here. The beatific vision probably makes suffering impossible, something which we can’t understand because we’re not able to experience God so directly yet. Chalk another one up to “It is a mystery”.
This is one insight that I can offer. I hope that eventually I’m in heaven and able to somehow assist in bringing the prayers of others before God. Being able to help in that way just sounds so… right. It doesn’t sound depressing at all.
My own personal opinion on the matter is that the saints experience compassion for what we go through but do not suffer any negative emotions from it. They were in the thick of it themselves during their time on earth and many suffered greatly. They would tend to look at things from the perspective of those who overcame and were triumphant victors over sin thanks to the grace of God rather than staring at the moment and letting themselves be filled with pain and sorrow over something that matters not in the long run. How they’re able to do that I have no idea, as I’m still on earth and still dealing with life here. The beatific vision probably makes suffering impossible, something which we can’t understand because we’re not able to experience God so directly yet. Chalk another one up to “It is a mystery”.
This is one insight that I can offer. I hope that eventually I’m in heaven and able to somehow assist in bringing the prayers of others before God. Being able to help in that way just sounds so… right. It doesn’t sound depressing at all.
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James_S_Saint
Guest
But then, how could you ever earn the right to be in Heaven, or even get there, by wanting for what isn’t to be?
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Lethe
Guest
Thanks for the book reccommendation. I just find it hard to imagine being happy in that situation but I suppose it does depend on how heaven is - it would be a worse feeling than just mourning, to know your loved one’s might be actually being punished in some way whilst you’re not.
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tonyrey
Guest
Do you really believe all this?According to a couple of books that I’ve read recently (The Four Last Things and Hell & How to Avoid Hell - both published by TAN) hell would be such a terrible place and the people there in such a desperate and horrifying state that there will be no comfort from those around you. Those in hell would be so consumed by pain, terror, despair and horror that they would not be able to respond to others in any meaningful way - other than to torment each other. In addition, even if your loved ones were present seeing someone you love tormented and tortured would be an another source of horror and despair.God deliver us from evil.
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