How can one be sure?

[Semper_Fi_1]

Yes, I am paying. I could take my money back but where will I go to do an indepth bible study? Despite all the flaws, she certainly is a good scholar. But more importantly, what are the alternatives?

How much more indepth could you get than the Early Church Fathers from www.scripturecatholic.com, W.A. Jurgens The Faith of the Early Fathers vol. 1, 2 & 3 or from the canons of the 21 Ecumenical Councils, St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, St. Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary, St. John of the Cross’ Dark Night of the Soul, St. Therese of Jesus’ Interior Castle, G.K Chesterton’s Orthodoxy, Hilaire Belloc just for starters. These works are common for seminary students and while not particularily a “Bible study”, it’s much more indepth than that and goes deep into Catholic spirituality, which you seem to crave more of.

Spend your money on Father John Corapi’s materials… His materials are first class, and Patrick Madrid has an excellent book entitled “Where Is That In The Bible?”. I would do an independent study, it’s where I learned most of my information.

 

[Kendy]

How much more indepth could you get than the Early Church Fathers from www.scripturecatholic.com, W.A. Jurgens The Faith of the Early Fathers vol. 1, 2 & 3 or from the canons of the 21 Ecumenical Councils, St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, St. Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary, St. John of the Cross’ Dark Night of the Soul, St. Therese of Jesus’ Interior Castle, G.K Chesterton’s Orthodoxy, Hilaire Belloc just for starters. These works are common for seminary students and while not particularily a “Bible study”, it’s much more indepth than that and goes deep into Catholic spirituality, which you seem to crave more of.

Spend your money on Father John Corapi’s materials… His materials are first class, and Patrick Madrid has an excellent book entitled “Where Is That In The Bible?”. I would do an independent study, it’s where I learned most of my information.

Don’t you think being catholic is lonely enough? I hear what you are saying about orthodoxy. But I am learning a lot of stuff from her. Some of it I think is wrong, but like I said, she really knows a lot of stuff and she’s really opened up the scriptures so that I see it in a different way.

 

[DianJo]

Don’t you think being catholic is lonely enough? I hear what you are saying about orthodoxy. But I am learning a lot of stuff from her. Some of it I think is wrong, but like I said, she really knows a lot of stuff and she’s really opened up the scriptures so that I see it in a different way.

Kendy,
What could you possibly be learning other than deceptions? I know how you feel about wanting a good, in-depth bible study but, honey, she’s possibly teaching you something that is not true, so what’s the use?

Try this site for a real, in-depth bible study. It will open your eyes to scripture better than that scholar can and you can bet it is truth:
Go to: www.salvationhistory.com It’s Scott Hahn’s website and has an excellent bible study that you do online. Don’t waste any more time on this so called scholar. Oh, and tell the diocese right away you’ll be leaving and request a refund of your money. They should know who they have teaching a bible study.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Don’t you think being catholic is lonely enough? I hear what you are saying about orthodoxy. But I am learning a lot of stuff from her. Some of it I think is wrong, but like I said, she really knows a lot of stuff and she’s really opened up the scriptures so that I see it in a different way.

I think what you may be looking for is a retreat, not a Bible study.

If this woman is not teaching what is the Catholic Truth, then why patronize her and give her your hard earned money which could go to apostalates which are really helping to evangelize orthodoxy?

You could get involved in your parish life… go to parish councils, etc. Just talk to the parish secretary on how to get more involved with your parish.

 

[scylla]

Being a good Catholic Christian is never going to be easy. It sometimes is very lonely, it might feel like you are crazy and every one else doesn’t want to listen.

It is like a man yelling that the ship is sinking and no-one cares, as it is unsinkable. I bet this has happened for a few minutes on big ships that sank like the Titanic. (not the hollywood movie, but in real life)

In the Church, the Church itself wont sink, but there will be plenty of people not really paying attention to the mistakes being taught and pretty much indifferent to the problems.

I would read about St Athanasius,
cin.org/saints/athanasius.html
It might be inspiring, back in that day some said it was “Athanasius against the world.”

Why not stay and endure, it might be hell, but it prepares you for heaven.
Sometimes it might be prudent to not make it personal, so not say that she is wrong, but just back up what the Church teaches, and you don’t always have to make a stink about it. You don’t have to always alienate yourself, as many times people who teach dissident teachings rely on confusion and emotion to express their personal beliefs.

Make an extra point to get along with everyone and work on their hearts, to win their minds. Bring cookies, share and lovingly share the truth.

This is very hard because you might be fuming inside if someone denies Christ, insults the Blessed Mother, makes fun of Priests or Nuns, or disparages our Holy Church.

I have been to an RCIA program where they openly have complained about how the Church is wrong and it needs to change, in front of a girl I was sponsoring, (she hasn’t come back), it is sickening inside. I know it is hard, but there are many Catholics who love the Church and are with you on this. They might even be one in the class you are in and too scared to speak up, and even if you are the only one keep it up but don’t alienate yourself or no-one will listen.

No-one likes a complainer and often those who teach dissident teachings will try and make you into one. Make friends, win hearts, then minds.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Kendy]

Kendy,
What could you possibly be learning other than deceptions? I know how you feel about wanting a good, in-depth bible study but, honey, she’s possibly teaching you something that is not true, so what’s the use?

Try this site for a real, in-depth bible study. It will open your eyes to scripture better than that scholar can and you can bet it is truth:
Go to: www.salvationhistory.com It’s Scott Hahn’s website and has an excellent bible study that you do online. Don’t waste any more time on this so called scholar. Oh, and tell the diocese right away you’ll be leaving and request a refund of your money. They should know who they have teaching a bible study.

Funny you should recommend this because she said that Scott Hahn is an idiot and doesn’t understand scripture. She said, he just a fundamentalist protestant in disguise.

Anyway, she’s about the various oral traditions, how to identify them in the text, how to understand in the text in relation to the culture at the time, how to look at the literary style of the era.

We are using the Denver Catholic School Program."

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Being a good Catholic Christian is never going to be easy. It sometimes is very lonely, it might feel like you are crazy and every one else doesn’t want to listen.

It is like a man yelling that the ship is sinking and no-one cares, as it is unsinkable. I bet this has happened for a few minutes on big ships that sank like the Titanic. (not the hollywood movie, but in real life)

In the Church, the Church itself wont sink, but there will be plenty of people not really paying attention to the mistakes being taught and pretty much indifferent to the problems.

I would read about St Athanasius,
cin.org/saints/athanasius.html
It might be inspiring, back in that day some said it was “Athanasius against the world.”

Why not stay and endure, it might be hell, but it prepares you for heaven.
Sometimes it might be prudent to not make it personal, so not say that she is wrong, but just back up what the Church teaches, and you don’t always have to make a stink about it. You don’t have to always alienate yourself, as many times people who teach dissident teachings rely on confusion and emotion to express their personal beliefs.

Make an extra point to get along with everyone and work on their hearts, to win their minds. Bring cookies, share and lovingly share the truth.

This is very hard because you might be fuming inside if someone denies Christ, insults the Blessed Mother, makes fun of Priests or Nuns, or disparages our Holy Church.

I have been to an RCIA program where they openly have complained about how the Church is wrong and it needs to change, in front of a girl I was sponsoring, (she hasn’t come back), it is sickening inside. I know it is hard, but there are many Catholics who love the Church and are with you on this. They might even be one in the class you are in and too scared to speak up, and even if you are the only one keep it up but don’t alienate yourself or no-one will listen.

No-one likes a complainer and often those who teach dissident teachings will try and make you into one. Make friends, win hearts, then minds.

God Bless
Scylla

Thanks.

Yes, I definitely end up looking like a jerk.

 

[scylla]

Thanks.

Yes, I definitely end up looking like a jerk.

I do too sometimes, and it is hard to not do so, when you stand up for what is right.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Kendy]

Does anyone know about biblical criticism— historical criticism, literary, typology, etc?

 

[patg]

Anyway, she’s about the various oral traditions, how to identify them in the text, how to understand in the text in relation to the culture at the time, how to look at the literary style of the era.
Kendy

These are exactly the approaches described and recommended by the magesterium in Pope Paul VI’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Dei Verbum. There are numerous Catholic scholars who make these concepts a significant part of their published (imprimatur) works such as Raymond Brown, John Meier, and Margaret Ralph. Raymond Brown was even appointed by two different popes to the Pontifical Biblical Commision.

 

[Kendy]

These are exactly the approaches described and recommended by the magesterium in Pope Paul VI’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Dei Verbum. There are numerous Catholic scholars who make these concepts a significant part of their published (imprimatur) works such as Raymond Brown, John Meier, and Margaret Ralph. Raymond Brown was even appointed by two different popes to the Pontifical Biblical Commision.

Do you know if Scott hahn’s methods are approved? She said, they are not, but I don’t know where to look. She said he uses typology, which condemned.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

 

[rwoehmke]

One woman said she was not going to watch EWTN because of what she said about it. Its pretty sad.
But anyway, where will I go? This is my only opportunity to do an in-depth study of scripture? I can barely find a decent place to go to mass

Kendy, of what use is it to have an “in depth” study of error. I would not be particularly concerned about you losing your Faith, but why waste your time. There are Bible Studies available on line and in books from legitimate sources. I would consider Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins as being legitimate. Their Faith in Scripture and their protestant backgrounds give them insights that someone always Catholic doesn’t have. I have taken several DVD/Notebook courses by these guys and I have yet to hear them speak doctrinal error. Your teacher/scripture scholar or theologian is not the first person that I have run into in a lifetime that has “an axe to grind” is totally full of beans. What they can teach you is probably worth about that much an 80 cent can of beans. If you can’t get meat I suppose you can settle for beans, but I think with a little looking around you can find real meat without sitting at the feet of a pedagogue who is full of you know what.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Don’t you think being catholic is lonely enough? I hear what you are saying about orthodoxy. But I am learning a lot of stuff from her. Some of it I think is wrong, but like I said, she really knows a lot of stuff and she’s really opened up the scriptures so that I see it in a different way.

As you know anyone the teaches something that is wrong about our Holy Catholic Church is not someone you want to “learn” from. There are many people that call themselves “teacher”, “scholar” or whatever. The title does not make anyones teachings true. Look at all those that are well educated and are “pro-choice” education does not mean the person is not ignorant of the subject they are teaching.

 

[rwoehmke]

These are exactly the approaches described and recommended by the magesterium in Pope Paul VI’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Dei Verbum. There are numerous Catholic scholars who make these concepts a significant part of their published (imprimatur) works such as Raymond Brown, John Meier, and Margaret Ralph. Raymond Brown was even appointed by two different popes to the Pontifical Biblical Commission.

Not everyone on these forums will agree with me, but I have read works by most of these people and found them to be fairly good. Like most people though it doesn’t pay to swallow every thing they might say as some of it can get pretty speculative. I really found Margaret Ralph’s book “God Said What” to be interesting and insightful. It deals more with the various genres of writing found in the Bible and is easy to read and understand. Brown can get a little difficult at times and I find some of his ideas interesting but also speculative. As for a Bible with excellent footnotes, I have found the partially published Ignatius Study Bible being put out by Ignatius Press in separate booklets to be very very good. The only draw back is when you want to go to a cross reference and its in a different book. You would be so much better served by using these resources than by that “Scripture Scholar”.

 

[mlchance]

Despite all the flaws, she certainly is a good scholar.

These points alone you listed above say she is most certainly not a good scholar:

She has said things that I think contradicts the catechism, like baptism does not cleanse from orginal sin. She says that historical Jesus did not found the priesthood, and that the saints just replaced the pagan gods.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[starling]

She hates EWTN, Scott Hahn, etc. She says their believes are not really catholic

Well, personally, I would have to say that many Catholics by birth would agree with that - not hate, but discomfort with some of the things they say. Let’s say that they do represent one aspect of today’s Catholic Church, but only one aspect of it, or some would say, one movement. To some of us older, traditional Catholics, they can seem a little on the Bible-only Christian fundamentalist side.

There are scholars who have made the link between some pre-Christian traditions and how Christianity adapted to existing cultures, such as the Roman one. I mean, it’s pretty well-established and accepted now. It isn’t that hard to see some Saints as gradually “replacing” the roles played by lesser gods in previous traditions. This doesn’t make the Saints any less than they are to us. There are many things in Christianity and Catholicism which existed in some form before, including the date we use for Christmas, and even much of what we see in a Catholic church to this day. It’s not lessening the importance of anything to know that there was some gradual adaptation (from Mithraism or Sol Invictus, or even Emperor worship, for example). The ancient Romans were an adaptable lot. The Reformation removed most of it later on, as they dropped the traditions. It’s no longer Catholicism without it.

People always seem to think in terms of the Roman Empire converting to Christianity overnight. It wasn’t like that. It was over centuries. People didn’t just drop all of their traditions and rituals all of a sudden. In many cases, the traditions and rituals remained, while gradually adopting new names and new meanings that we still use today. People are free to accept this, or the view of some early Church Fathers who concluded that Satan had made some things exist before just to confuse later Christians (many previous birth, death (even crucifixion) and resurrection myths, mother and child myths, etc. Even Christians in the early centuries already were fully aware of these older myths and traditions. It’s hard to deny things that are engraved in stone. But I repeat, they do not have to be seen as invalidating Christianity at all.

 

[raezale]

Funny you should recommend this because she said that Scott Hahn is an idiot and doesn’t understand scripture. She said, he just a fundamentalist protestant in disguise.

This woman shouldn’t be referred to as a “scholar” if she’s calling real scholars idiots.

Since she is clearly not teaching in accordance with Church teaching, it is your duty to write to your bishop to inform him of what is taking place. If that does no good, then you should contact your archdiocese. Millions of Catholics have a poorly formed understanding of the faith as it is because of the dissent that became widespread beginning in the 1960’s. It is awful to think that someone like this woman is being paid by a diocese to “teach” what is not true.

Scott Hahn is definitely an orthodox teacher of scripture. Franciscan University is one of a handful of Catholic universities that are truly faithful to Church teaching. EWTN certainly presents Church teaching in a faithful manner, and they broadcast many of Scott Hahn’s programs. Furthermore, he teaches seminarians in Rome every year. Does this woman really think the Pope would approve of him if he wasn’t authentically Catholic? I doubt that Scott Hahn would have written the foreword to one of Pope Benedict’s books (Many Religions, One Covenant by Cardinal Ratzinger) if he was an idiot.

 

[Kendy]

Well, personally, I would have to say that many Catholics by birth would agree with that - not hate, but discomfort with some of the things they say. Let’s say that they do represent one aspect of today’s Catholic Church, but only one aspect of it, or some would say, one movement. To some of us older, traditional Catholics, they can seem a little on the Bible-only Christian fundamentalist side.

Well, I can understand that, but I wouldn’t call this professor traditionalist either. She’s more of the spirit of vatican II, ordination of woman wing of the church.

Kendy

 

[starling]

Hi Kendy

I don’t use the word “traditionalist” in the same sense that many of you on Catholic Answers forums use it. People here tend to mean those who want to go back to the past, like masses in Latin, Communion only on the tongue, etc. I don’t use it in any connection with or without Vatican II. I simply mean Catholics who have been Catholics for a long time, raised in Catholic culture, and who just accept it as it is, without protesting anything, and without the urge to tattle on Priests to the Bishop or to the Vatican every time they don’t agree with something that was said or understood out of context - nothing more.

There are many people who should perhaps examine their own thoughts, to ensure that they are not trying to adapt the Church to their pre-existing beliefs rather than the other way around, and it’s not always the cradle Catholics or so-called dissenters who are doing that. If a person keeps making negative comments about Vatican II, isn’t that a kind of dissent right there?

And to those who keep saying that “dissent” came in the 1960s as a result of Vatican II, I would suggest that Vatican II only worked out things that had been working their way through the Church for a long, long time - like centuries. It wasn’t anything that new. There have been diverging views on many things at all times during the entire 2000 year history of the Church. Christianity started out as a pretty fluid thing, after all. Even the Apostles and later disciples didn’t agree on everything. It took hundreds of years to set out “official” teachings, and a few were not even settled until the 20th century. That’s not to say that I personally “dissent” on anything, but I do try to focus on charity and compassion, rather than on whether other people are following every rule to the letter.

 

[Kendy]

Hi Kendy

I don’t use the word “traditionalist” in the same sense that many of you on Catholic Answers forums use it. People here tend to mean those who want to go back to the past, like masses in Latin, Communion only on the tongue, etc. I don’t use it in any connection with or without Vatican II. I simply mean Catholics who have been Catholics for a long time, raised in Catholic culture, and who just accept it as it is, without protesting anything, and without the urge to tattle on Priests to the Bishop or to the Vatican every time they don’t agree with something that was said or understood out of context - nothing more.

There are many people who should perhaps examine their own thoughts, to ensure that they are not trying to adapt the Church to their pre-existing beliefs rather than the other way around, and it’s not always the cradle Catholics or so-called dissenters who are doing that. If a person keeps making negative comments about Vatican II, isn’t that a kind of dissent right there?

And to those who keep saying that “dissent” came in the 1960s as a result of Vatican II, I would suggest that Vatican II only worked out things that had been working their way through the Church for a long, long time - like centuries. It wasn’t anything that new. There have been diverging views on many things at all times during the entire 2000 year history of the Church. Christianity started out as a pretty fluid thing, after all. Even the Apostles and later disciples didn’t agree on everything. It took hundreds of years to set out “official” teachings, and a few were not even settled until the 20th century. That’s not to say that I personally “dissent” on anything, but I do try to focus on charity and compassion, rather than on whether other people are following every rule to the letter.

I think your point is a good one, but I would rather not have to sit through a class where she calls things I consider to be sacred into question every step of the way. I don’t think all the rebel-rousing is the work of converts. I think the founders of Stubenville, Ave Maria, and many of the new conservative movements are being done by cradle catholics who are just tired of what they perceive to be a waterdown of catholicism.

At the end of the day, I just don’t feel like this builds my faith. I agree with you that this constant tattle-telling doesn’t seem charitable, but I am really unhappy with many things. I am unhappy with my parish, with this class, etc., and I am not sure what to do other than drive 30 minutes away to a parish I like. Ironically, my instructor left her parish to go to a more liberal one. So, is this what we are going to do now, go to parishes were our idologies are tolerated.