How can priests advise on marital relations?

[newbetx]

We were kind of off topic on another thread but I promised to start this thread to allow us to continue the debate.

The statement posed is basically this: If a priest has no experience in sexual matters or marriage between a man and a woman, what qualifies him to guide a person in marital relations or other marriage issues?

A more blunt assumption goes like this: “If you don’t play the game, you can not make the rules.”

I’ve tried explaining priests get a lot of training on the morality of such issues as well as much secondary experience working with couples with issues. However, these arguments have been basically dismissed as the assumption stated above is claimed to be valid.

Any good, concise arguments out there disputing this assumption or supporting the good work done by some of our priests?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Hi,

Well I would first tell these people that God made the rules and He doesnt have sex. Secondly I would tell them if having sex makes you a better expert or better qualified to advise on relationships then maybe they should talk to a prostitute rather than their priest.

 

[LIT56RD]

Hi,

Well I would first tell these people that God made the rules and He doesnt have sex. Secondly I would tell them if having sex makes you a better expert or better qualified to advise on relationships then maybe they should talk to a prostitute rather than their priest.

Rather sarcastic and not all that helpful advice.

 

[cviolette]

Hi,

Well I would first tell these people that God made the rules and He doesnt have sex. Secondly I would tell them if having sex makes you a better expert or better qualified to advise on relationships then maybe they should talk to a prostitute rather than their priest.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Rather sarcastic and not all that helpful advice.

I think its great advice since the people the OP is trying to talk to seem to be dismissing the other logical arguments presented to them. Plus I’m not hearing anything better from yourself.

 

[cviolette]

I went to a priest when I was have sexual issues. He was kind and helpful.

 

[lizaanne]

Hi,

Well I would first tell these people that God made the rules and He doesnt have sex. Secondly I would tell them if having sex makes you a better expert or better qualified to advise on relationships then maybe they should talk to a prostitute rather than their priest.

I think this is an outstanding response!

Our priest has always given me nothing but excellent advice when I’ve gone to him with marriage questions.

~Liza

 

[EricFilmer]

First of all, I would like to point out that a doctor does not have to personally experience cancer to be a good oncologist. An oncologist studies medicine in order to help those who do. In a similar way, priests study sexual morality to guide people (in terms of what the Church teaches on the subject) who find themselves in problematic situations of a sexual nature.

Secondly, in terms of marriage, a priest can speak to couples concerning the theology of the sacrament (which may or may not delve into the area of sexual morality). I admit that because he is not married he is not able to speak from experience, and naturally this imposes limitations on his understanding of what couples go through. But this same lack of experience also means that the priest can speak from an unbiased standpoint. Therefore, he may help a couple better understand their situation with more objectivity.

And finally, I think it is important to remember that when a couple considers going to a priest for marriage counseling, this does not mean they can’t ask other people as well. They are free to avail themselves of the advice of married friends, professional marriage counselors, and so forth.

 

[EricFilmer]

First of all, I would like to point out that a doctor does not have to personally experience cancer to be a good oncologist. An oncologist studies medicine in order to help those who do. In a similar way, priests study sexual morality to guide people (in terms of what the Church teaches on the subject) when they find themselves in problematic situations of a sexual nature.

Secondly, in terms of marriage, a priest can speak to couples concerning the theology of the sacrament (which may or may not delve into the area of sexual morality). I admit that because he is not married he is not able to speak from experience, and naturally this imposes limitations on his understanding of what couples go through. But this same lack of experience also means that the priest can speak from an unbiased standpoint. Therefore, he may help a couple better understand their situation with more objectivity.

And finally, I think it is important to remember that when a couple considers going to a priest for marriage counseling, this does not mean they can’t ask other people as well. They are free to avail themselves of the advice of married friends, professional marriage counselors, and so forth.

 

[cemiller]

I would think it falls under the those that can’t do teach rule… I like what the one user said about an unbiased opinion would be very helpful though. Anyone who is or has been married will carry the experiences (positive or negative) into their advice, with a priest who has never been married wouldn’t have the same bias.

 

[mark_a]

We were kind of off topic on another thread but I promised to start this thread to allow us to continue the debate.

The statement posed is basically this: If a priest has no experience in sexual matters or marriage between a man and a woman, what qualifies him to guide a person in marital relations or other marriage issues?

A more blunt assumption goes like this: “If you don’t play the game, you can not make the rules.”

I’ve tried explaining priests get a lot of training on the morality of such issues as well as much secondary experience working with couples with issues. However, these arguments have been basically dismissed as the assumption stated above is claimed to be valid.

Any good, concise arguments out there disputing this assumption or supporting the good work done by some of our priests?

Good priests teach what the Church teaches. Not to mention that Jesus fellow, who brought us back to God’s original intention for marriage. And there are tons of non-celebate Catholic teachers too.

 

[St_Francis]

One thing a prest can do is to isolate the problem, which is usually a general spiritual problem rather than a specific marital problem. If one person is having trouble accepting authority, if one person is being self-centered, etc, these problems are not unique to marriage.

And the lay person who can give good spiritual advice to either or both spouses is rare, but priests are (theoretically) trained in doing that.

 

[Rascalking]

It’s a very fair question that deserves an honest answer. It seems odd. You usually need experience in what your talking about to give advice. That’s why recovering addicts make better drug counselors than those who have no idea about the pain of addiction.

Ignore the smart-aleck responses. People become defensive at the smallest slight (even imagined) against the priesthood.

 

[odile53]

I think that, in addition to their theological and moral formation, seminarians get training on pastoral care, which includes at least the rudiments of counseling theory and experience. It’s really not equivalent to link marriage advising with addiction counseling, and while it was true at the beginning of the addictions treatment movement that most counselors were themselves recovered addicts, there are plenty of nonaddicted people who have completed the academic work and clinical practicums and hold state licenses in this field. They practice very competently, and are far less likely to get into a therapeutic impasse known as countertransference. The same holds true for a parish priest who is a competent pastoral counselor, it’s really a fancy way of saying “objectivitiy.”

One thing that hasn’t been touched on here is that a priest has some moral authority (that of the Church) in dealing with a person who is clearly not living out a marriage in a Christian manner. A priest is more likely to call out bad behavior than a lay counselor, who may just be being supportive and nonjudgmental.

Additionally, most parish priests are very savvy about what professional services are available, many have contacts, and they can be very helpful in helping a troubled parishioner navigate the system.

Finally, if a marital separation or even divorce seems indicated, a knowledgeable parish priest can clarify misconceptions about these processes (divorced Catholics are NOT going to go to hell, for example,) and are the entry point for applications to diocesan marriage tribunals.

It’s not just plain marriage advice: Someone can get that from anyone from their favorite uncle to the local bartender, all the way to mental health professionals. It’s spiritual care while going through a distressing experience that would try any Christian’s faith. A knowledgeable priest can function as a member of a team to help a couple get through some pretty bad marriage horrendomas with their sanity and their salvation intact. You don’t have to have had the experience of being married to do that.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It’s a very fair question that deserves an honest answer. It seems odd. You usually need experience in what your talking about to give advice. That’s why recovering addicts make better drug counselors than those who have no idea about the pain of addiction.

Ignore the smart-aleck responses. People become defensive at the smallest slight (even imagined) against the priesthood.

Recovering addicts CAN make good counselors, but ‘better’ than somebody who has no idea of the pain of addiction? Not necessarily so and certainly not in every case.

I mean, would you say that a marriage counselor would have had to go not just through divorce (otherwise, how would he or she know about the pain of couples considering divorce or who had been previously divorced), but through divorce for each different ‘reason’ his/her clients experienced? Divorce because of infidelity AND divorce because of drugs AND divorce because of abuse AND divorce because of the pain of losing a child AND divorce because of . . .well, you get the idea.

Would you say that ANY marriage counselor would ‘have’ to be married? How long? I mean, suppose this was a nice young guy. Maybe he’s only been married a few months. How can he counsel somebody who’s been married 20 years?

The whole idea that a counselor must have practical ‘experience’ in being married, or addicted, or being old (I mean, how can a gerontologist counsel somebody in his 80s when he’s only a whippersnapper of 30? What does even a 50 year old know about the physical and emotional pain of an 80 year old?) before he can really counsel is flawed.

I can see why theoretically it might seem like a good idea.

But can’t you see that there is also a question of ‘bias’? If you have been addicted to drugs, you’re more likely to ‘know’ the pain. . .and you’re also more likely to make excuses or rationalize too, as well as relapse. You are more 'empathetic. . .and more likely to let that empathy lead you into co-dependency issues. If you’ve been ‘divorced’, you’re more likely to sympathize with the one of the spouses whose circumstances most resemble your own, and to be less sympathetic or fair to the other spouse.

Sure a priest has (usually) not been married. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t had feelings for the opposite sex, that he hasn’t (at some point) thought about being married himself. . .and finally, most priests that I know of have had parents who were married themselves. So it’s not like they’ve come into the world knowing NOTHING about how marriages ‘work’ or never having seen married people. . .

And since we can have marriage counselors in the secular world (non priests) and there is no law that THEY have to be married before they can practice, it seems that even the secular world recognizes that one does not have to have experienced a given situation in order to give expert advice about it. . .

But I agree with Rascal that it is indeed possible that people thought the post was a slur on the priesthood and reacted too defensively.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Oddly enough, I receive counselling for my depression and OCPD from a doctor that never experienced it. I guess I better find a new doctor.

 

[EmeraldWings]

it’s not just a matter of what someone has been through, it’s what mankind and the church has been through for thousands of years, it’s teachings and wisdom and knowledge that has been handed down to us for many generations.

but besides that, priests can give advice on those things because they are trained to, you don’t have to experience marital relations to be educated in them, and then you also have to understand that it’s not the marital act itself that is the underlining issue, it’s the relationship in general, and that is something anyone can understand with the right education and experience, and everyone has relationships in their life of many kinds.

it’s not a matter of understanding expressions of love, but of love itself, which, when you get right down to it, is to will or desire good for another, and when you look at it that way, then certainly a priest can understand and have every right to give advice,
and really you just have to look at the results, i know plenty of people who have gotten marriage counseling from their priest, usually an FSSP priest, and it helped them immensely.

not to mention, priests more than anyone else see and discuss marriage problems, they see what breaks up a marriage, or causes problems, they discuss it more than anyone, and they can see and know from experience what will either break a marriage up or hold it together,

of course i can’t speak for every priest, i know there are alot of bad ones out there right now, but i can atleast speak for the priests of the FSSP, who i’ve met and spoke alot with, they are formed and educated properly as priests should be, and i know alot of people who go to them for marriage counseling, and although i have not personally gone to them for marriage counseling…because i’m not married, but i’ve been told by people i am close to that they are very good at it…

so that’s all i’ve got to say on that, and i just think it really depends on the education, not the experience…although we all experience love…especially priests, who give themselves and abandon themselves to God so completely, leaving their friends and family and lives behind to go after God…now that’s real love, abandoning everything, even yourself, to go after the one you love…i think priests get it, more than we do, and i know God gives them special graces to know these things better as well…

alright, that’s all for now, take care.

 

[Rascalking]

But I agree with Rascal .

The true sign of Armageddon.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The true sign of Armageddon.

Call Mr Camping, he got the date wrong!

Personally, I think the advice from a priest in this area would be greatly impartial and unbiased.

 

[TimothyH]

I think anyone who maintains self control in our society is highly qualified to speak to candidates for matrimony and those already married about subjects such as faithfulness and commitment. Priests are the perfect example of the type of people we should listen to.

Who else should we listen to anyway? FM radio talk show hosts? Prime time TV sitcoms? Hugh Hefner? 80 years of Protestantism telling us that contraception is OK as long as it is prayerfully considered, modern psychological sciences counseling us, public schoools educating us, and the self help section at chain bookstores has left us with abortion, 75% of black children born into houses with no fathers, porn addiction, divorce, HIV and a generation of teenagers who worship sexual fulfillment and choose colleges based on where they think the best orgies will be. Most of the secular outlets have a pretty dismal track record in this arena if you ask me.

Anyone who can commit to something as rigorous as the priesthood should have something valuable to say about marriage, specifically about being faithful and following through on commitment. Nuns and monks for that matter, have far more credibiity with me than do most of the sources of information and council in secular society.

A dominican sister or a cistercian brother can tell you all about love, commitment and perseverence. I’d trust a carmelite nun before I trust Dr. Phil.

-Tim-