How can Protestants be forgiven for sins? (Please, any adivce appreciated)

[steve_b]

It is interesting. What I got most from it is that Catholics who like to say Proestants are doomed because “there is no salvation outside the Church” do not realize that partial communion with Rome places one inside the Church not outside. I think I am correctly understanding that is the viewpoint of the RCC.

If that was true you could walk off the street and receive all the sacraments in the Church.

That’s NOT what the Church teaches.

**837 **“Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

That 2nd part (highlighted) refers to Catholics who don’t persevere in charity.

 

[steve_b]

That plus at the time the phrase “no salvation outside the Church” was coined, to be outside the Church meant to be a non-christian.

Reference please, properly referenced of course

BTW,

Division Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , depending on one’s translation they use, the word in Greek διχοστασίας for [dissension / division / schism / groundless factions ] in Rom 16:17 & Gal 5:19 is the same word. In Gal 5:21, shows the consequences for “dissension”. One won’t inherit heaven.

This refers to a baptized person which technically is what makes a person Christian

These were written to the Catholic Church

 

[Reuben_J]

That plus at the time the phrase “no salvation outside the Church” was coined, to be outside the Church meant to be a non-christian.

That could be very well but Christianity or rather those who called themselves Christians, comes in various styles and colours. And example would be Baptism, where there are Christians who need to be baptized again if they want to enter the Catholic Church, while others do not have to.

The existing Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the Church relationship with non-Catholics (#800+) I would think stil pretty much spell out the guideline of how we should look at them.

That is pertinent because the CCC is still the official teaching document of the Church to be used by the faithful. Until the content is changed, I cannot see how we can go by not using them.

There are more than one billion Catholics, and they get their information from their bishops and their priests thus similarly any changes have to be disseminated through them to the parishioners, the normal channel of communication for the Catholic faithful.

 

[Wannano]

#128 was a quote from Vat II Lumen Gentium. Nov 1964

I know steve, but what in the world is it supposed to mean?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them.

It does not make any sense to me that Jesus would only die for righteous Catholics. Jesus came to heal the sick.

 

[Reuben_J]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them.

It does not make any sense to me that Jesus would only die for righteous Catholics. Jesus came to heal the sick.

Thank you for bringing us back to the topic of the OP.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Mathew’s Gospel this Sunday is challenging. Jesus only came to save the lost sheep of Israel, I would be like the Canaanite woman, an outsider.

Gospel Mt 15:21-28
At that time, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out,
“Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David!
My daughter is tormented by a demon.”
But Jesus did not say a word in answer to her.
Jesus’ disciples came and asked him,
“Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.”
He said in reply,
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
But the woman came and did Jesus homage, saying, “Lord, help me.”
He said in reply,
“It is not right to take the food of the children
and throw it to the dogs.”
She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps
that fall from the table of their masters.”
Then Jesus said to her in reply,
“O woman, great is your faith!
Let it be done for you as you wish.”
And the woman’s daughter was healed from that hour.

Even if the Catholic Church is the chosen Church, it seems that Jesus is open to the outsider.

 

[rcwitness]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them.

Yes, and did everyone repent and believe?

It does not make any sense to me that Jesus would only die for righteous Catholics. Jesus came to heal the sick.

Only those who are healed can be righteous.
When Jesus was with us, He pronounced those who came to Him forgiven.
To those who did not come to Him, He said things like this:

John 5
“…and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.*You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;*yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

We have already established that the Church recognizes salvation to all who believe and accept unto what they know through faith. Baptism is the sign and Sacrament of receiving His cleansing forgiveness. Reconciliation is the sign and Sacrament for us who fall back into the sin of the old man.

Some believers do not know Baptism as this means of washing forgiveness, yet they can be forgiven. So too, for those who do not know that we are to come to Jesus in Reconciliation for falling back, their can be (under circumstances which only God can ultimately judge, though we can admonish and warn) forgiveness.

It’s about “coming to Him”. We know He is in the Sacrament. But others may only know that He can hear and minister through their cry and witness to their brothers and sisters.

 

[steve_b]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them.

It does not make any sense to me that Jesus would only die for righteous Catholics. Jesus came to heal the sick.

Yet the same Jesus who knew He would be crucified, also warned us in advance

Matthew 7:13-14 ,

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Note: ἀπώλεια, apóleia: = destruction, eternal ruin.

Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,

Jesus, the one who will judge all souls, knowing in advance what He is going to go through, and all humanity will go through, from beginning to end, answered that question of only a few will be saved.

• Jesus didn’t deny or correct the questioner’s point.
• Jesus actually validated the point, and expanded on it.
  
  Protestants are in (separation, division, dissension, heresy, schism, sedition, etc. [διχοστασίας (http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm) ) from the Catholic Church, which has always been condemned activity. IOW after receiving the knowledge of truth, (an important phrase) and won’t correct this, those who die in that condition, won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Not my words, that comes from scripture and tradition as the CCC says ** 846** ]

This gets directly to the point of forgiveness of sins… the topic of this thread. When only a few will be saved, it means everyone else did not get their sins forgiven. One example has been given.

What about another example

Q:
What does Jesus mean by “workers of iniquity”? ἀδικίας. ]

Here’s one example of iniquity, in God’s eyes.

Deliberately missing mass on Sunday. Look at the consequences for that action. And the phrase (once one comes to the knowledge of truth). THAT’s why I give the information I do when the opportunity presents itself, so people have that knowledge

#25 ]

If this is being blurred or even discounted today by anyone, and it causes confusion because of misapplied or false ecumenism, then the ones promoting that, rather than solid teaching, could find themselves in big trouble. Again, Not my words…

Why?

It’s from a timeless bit of advice from Ezekiel that speaks volumes for all time about sin and the forgiveness of sin and our responsibilities to give truth. And if we don’t ?.

Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

That advice is as good for Ezekiel in his day, as it is for all of us today and forever. That advice has no expiration date.

 

[steve_b]

I know steve, but what in the world is it supposed to mean?

Consider #164

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Protestants are in (separation, division, dissension, heresy, schism, sedition, etc.  [**διχοστασίας**](http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm)  ) from the Catholic Church, which has always been condemned activity. IOW after receiving the knowledge of truth, (an important phrase) and won't correct this, those who die in that condition, won't inherit the kingdom of God. Not my words, that comes from scripture and tradition as the CCC says    ** [846](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/846.htm)**   ]

Very few people deserve salvation, and Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father. If I should find salvation, it will not be through my efforts, rather it will be through the grace, love mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.

This gets directly to the point of forgiveness of sins… the topic of this thread. When only a few will be saved, it means everyone else did not get their sins forgiven. One example has been given

.

Many things have been said about love, mercy, forgiveness and punishment, not one of us can make judgements in the way that Jesus will judge. We pray the Lords prayer, and we ask God to forgive us in exactly the same way we forgive others.

 

[rcwitness]

Very few people deserve salvation, and Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father. If I should find salvation, it will not be through my efforts, rather it will be through the grace, love mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.

I strongly disagree that salvation is effortless! There are spiritual battles that take much attention. There is the war against the flesh, that takes all that we have. And there is resistance to the world and it’s pleasures and demands. Salvation is a free gift of God’s grace, but it takes giving up ourselves to receive. We are full of pride, lust, covetousness, anger, etc.

 

[steve_b]

Very few people deserve salvation, and Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father. If I should find salvation, it will not be through my efforts, rather it will be through the grace, love mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.

That said, we don’t presume to make our own rules nor flaunt the ones already in place… true?

After all, the operative phrase, “once one comes to the knowledge of truth” then we can’t plead ignorance, we need to respond appropriately…agreed?

Eric:

Many things have been said about love, mercy, forgiveness and punishment, not one of us can make judgements in the way that Jesus will judge. We pray the Lords prayer, and we ask God to forgive us in exactly the same way we forgive others.

And Jesus told us in advance, what will happen. He ought to know, He is the one who judges everyone. He can’t lie, nor deceive. He said few are saved.

Not my words but His.

That ought to scare the hell out of everyone.

 

[Reuben_J]

Mathew’s Gospel this Sunday is challenging. Jesus only came to save the lost sheep of Israel, I would be like the Canaanite woman, an outsider.

Gospel Mt 15:21-28
At that time, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out,
“Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David!
My daughter is tormented by a demon.”
But Jesus did not say a word in answer to her.
Jesus’ disciples came and asked him,
“Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.”
He said in reply,
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
But the woman came and did Jesus homage, saying, “Lord, help me.”
He said in reply,
“It is not right to take the food of the children
and throw it to the dogs.”
She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps
that fall from the table of their masters.”
Then Jesus said to her in reply,
“O woman, great is your faith!
Let it be done for you as you wish.”
And the woman’s daughter was healed from that hour.

Even if the Catholic Church is the chosen Church, it seems that Jesus is open to the outsider.

The question is why be an outsider if she can be an insider? Right?

That is the purpose of Jesus coming, not just that everyone can be saved but he left behind the grace of the Church, like a hospital, where people stay, come and be saved.

Yes, one can be saved outside the hospital, but it certainly is more difficult without the surgeons, the physicians, the operating theatre, the nurses, the imaging department, the laboratory, etc, all to help in the treatment of the patients.

 

[Reuben_J]

Very few people deserve salvation, and Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father. If I should find salvation, it will not be through my efforts, rather it will be through the grace, love mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.

True but where do one finds that grace? Sure, the grace of God is abound everywhere – we can believe, we can pray – but we are humans too with weaknesses which need physical graces to help us.

It is more of a matter of finding that grace.

Jesus left behind those which can be found in the Church, His Church.

So we have Baptism for the forgiveness of sin, which is the door (to heaven).

We have Confession, where we can go to a priest and confess our sins, so that they be absolved and forgiven.

We have the Eucharist, where we can receive the Body and Blood of Jesus for the nutrition of our souls so that they are well nourished, remembering that it is the Bread of Life.

They are ready and available in the Church, so why not get them? The feast is being prepared, and why not just come?

I think that is what we are trying to say.

We are not saying that non-Catholics cannot be saved – that is stated clearly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They can but if they follow those criteria spelled out in the Catechism.

Ultimately, why does it matter for non-Catholics to care about what Catholics, (or Muslims, or Mormons, for that matter) think? They have their own set of belief and that’s all matter for them.

But ask a Catholic on the subject, he or she has to tell it honestly and for many ordinary Catholics, the answers lie in the Catechism.

 

[Wannano]

I strongly disagree that salvation is effortless! There are spiritual battles that take much attention. There is the war against the flesh, that takes all that we have. And there is resistance to the world and it’s pleasures and demands. Salvation is a free gift of God’s grace, but it takes giving up ourselves to receive. We are full of pride, lust, covetousness, anger, etc.

I don’t think Eric is saying it is effortless. I agree with all you have presented here and I agree with what he really said which in my opinion is that salvation is not a result of our own efforts.

 

[Wannano]

But ask a Catholic on the subject, he or she has to tell it honestly and for many ordinary Catholics, the answers lie in the Catechism.

I totally agree with your statement above. I also think the following statement is true as well. “But ask a non-Catholic on the subject, he or she has to tell it honestly and for many ordinary non-Catholics, the answers lie in the Bible.”

 

[Reuben_J]

I totally agree with your statement above. I also think the following statement is true as well. “But ask a non-Catholic on the subject, he or she has to tell it honestly and for many ordinary non-Catholics, the answers lie in the Bible.”

Hi

I have no problem in knowing what you believe and I welcome the knowledge because as a cradle Catholic coming from a Catholic family of many generations I admit that I know very little of the belief of people outside of it. The reason also why I don’t argue much with Protestants unless if it is more to clarify my own belief.

What I notice here there seems to be disagreement among the Catholics themselves and words spoken might not as charitable as we would like.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I totally agree with your statement above. I also think the following statement is true as well. “But ask a non-Catholic on the subject, he or she has to tell it honestly and for many ordinary non-Catholics, the answers lie in the Bible.”

And I would point out that a diocese’s director of ecumenical concerns is going to be a person whose background is above and beyond merely that of The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a handy reference book but its utility is quickly exhausted, above all when working in specialised areas or when one is working at any theological depth.

 

[Wannano]

True but where do one finds that grace? Sure, the grace of God is abound everywhere – we can believe, we can pray – but we are humans too with weaknesses which need physical graces to help us.

It is more of a matter of finding that grace.

Jesus left behind those which can be found in the Church, His Church.

So we have Baptism for the forgiveness of sin, which is the door (to heaven).

We have Confession, where we can go to a priest and confess our sins, so that they be absolved and forgiven.

We have the Eucharist, where we can receive the Body and Blood of Jesus for the nutrition of our souls so that they are well nourished, remembering that it is the Bread of Life.

They are ready and available in the Church, so why not get them? The feast is being prepared, and why not just come?

I think that is what we are trying to say.

We are not saying that non-Catholics cannot be saved – that is stated clearly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They can but if they follow those criteria spelled out in the Catechism.

Ultimately, why does it matter for non-Catholics to care about what Catholics, (or Muslims, or Mormons, for that matter) think? They have their own set of belief and that’s all matter for them.

But ask a Catholic on the subject, he or she has to tell it honestly and for many ordinary Catholics, the answers lie in the Catechism.

Hi

I have no problem in knowing what you believe and I welcome the knowledge because as a cradle Catholic coming from a Catholic family of many generations I admit that I know very little of the belief of people outside of it. The reason also why I don’t argue much with Protestants unless if it is more to clarify my own belief.

What I notice here there seems to be disagreement among the Catholics themselves and words spoken might not as charitable as we would like.

It is actually helpful to me to know where you are coming from. I find cradle Catholics to be generally a little less prone to have a chip on their shoulder.