How can Protestants be forgiven for sins? (Please, any adivce appreciated)

[tgGodsway]

Thanks, we love living here. We get all four seasons. When we lived in Texas we only got three. Hot, hotter, and hottest.

 

[Peter_J]

That does seem to be where a lot of these Protestant threads tend to go, isn’t it? Not forgetting the fire and brimstone we are given when we choose to stand steadfast in our own Confessions. Psst, by the way, we actually do hold the one true faith as we affirm the Athanasian Creed, which gives a definitive answer as to what a Catholic actually is
bookofconcord.org/creeds.php.

These are the only two posts that I’ve read on this thread recently, but they’re enough to make me want to ask you: do you know of any statements from the Vatican (not posts on the Catholic Answers Forum) that say that Protestants can’t be forgiven / go to hell?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thankyou for this clarification. Yes, I am increasingly becoming aware that many Catholic posters on CAF are not reliable fountains of knowledge of current CC determinations.

You have been here for some time now, Wannano. The posters to whom you refer merit one thing only…to be ignored

They are, in fact, being faithless to the authentic Magisterium, which is living. And they show themselves to be the sort of Catholic whom Pope Francis warns about

When Pope Saint John Paul II wrote "Consigning to oblivion the excommunications of the past" that was not a personal statement but as Bishop of Rome and is exactly the Holy See’s attitude and sentiment, which has continued across the decades and the various pontificates because it is the mind of the Church

We embrace the clergy and the faithful of the non-Catholic Churches and Communities for what they are: members of the one Body of Christ who are our brothers and sisters as articulated by Vatican II
The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect

How does the contemporary Church handle schmismatics? Do the anathemas of Trent still apply to modern schismatics?

I frankly do not understand what you are asking. We do not regard Christians who are not Catholic as “schismatics”. As Pope Saint John Paul II wrote

It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”

When Pope Benedict made his pilgrimage to the places associated with Luther, specifically to Erfurt, it was a memory of a lifetime for all of us and a capstone in his own life and ministry

/…/ the first and most important thing for ecumenism is that we keep in view just how much we have in common, not losing sight of it amid the pressure towards secularization – everything that makes us Christian in the first place and continues to be our gift and our task. It was the error of the Reformation period that for the most part we could only see what divided us and we failed to grasp existentially what we have in common in terms of the great deposit of sacred Scripture and the early Christian creeds. For me, the great ecumenical step forward of recent decades is that we have become aware of all this common ground, that we acknowledge it as we pray and sing together, as we make our joint commitment to the Christian ethos in our dealings with the world, as we bear common witness to the God of Jesus Christ in this world as ** our inalienable, shared foundation.

/…/ This is a key ecumenical task in which we have to help one another: developing a deeper and livelier faith.** It is not strategy that saves us and saves Christianity, but faith – thought out and lived afresh; through such faith, Christ enters this world of ours, and with him, the living God. As the martyrs of the Nazi era brought us together and prompted that great initial ecumenical opening, so today, faith that is lived from deep within amid a secularized world is the most powerful ecumenical force that brings us together, guiding us towards unity in the one Lord. And we pray to him, asking that we may learn to live the faith anew, and that in this way we may then become one.

The bolded and underlined text is most important: for we Catholics have much to learn from our reformed brothers and sisters, just as we can be an enrichment to them. But that is certainly not achieved or even reflected by attitudes that are simply to be consigned to the 16th century from which they came.

Contemporary Catholics can commit a schismatic act such as when Marcel Lefebvre and his followers ordained bishops without a pontifical mandate…but even there, the excommunications were against those directly responsible: the bishops involved with other canonical penalties having been assessed against the clergy

Relative to Reformed Christians and other Christians who are not Catholic? Goodness, no! This is not the 16th century

The Catholic laity on this thread who think with the mindset of the 16th century are so far removed from the mind of the Holy See today that I consider them meriting only to be ignored.

From Conflict to Communion concludes

Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.

I suggest, Wannano, that you keep pace with the Holy See and the world’s Catholic bishops – and not pay attention to the Catholic stragglers lacking the awareness cited above…they may find themselves in the same plight as the foolish virgins in the Gospel parable.

 

[LutheranScholar]

These are the only two posts that I’ve read on this thread recently, but they’re enough to make me want to ask you: do you know of any statements from the Vatican (not posts on the Catholic Answers Forum) that say that Protestants can’t be forgiven / go to hell?

To be perfectly fair, I had just read the Unitatis Redintegratio on www.vatican.va and in that statement, I had read that we separated brethren do indeed have access to God’s saving grace by virtue of our Baptism. I shall also point out that most of those who call themselves " Catholics" who condemn us fellow Christians tend to sedevacantism ( or some other stripe of cafeteria Catholicism) in some of the other things that they post.

 

[LutheranScholar]

You have been here for some time now, Wannano. The posters to whom you refer merit one thing only…to be ignored

They are, in fact, being faithless to the authentic Magisterium, which is living. And they show themselves to be the sort of Catholic whom Pope Francis warns about

When Pope Saint John Paul II wrote "Consigning to oblivion the excommunications of the past" that was not a personal statement but as Bishop of Rome and is exactly the Holy See’s attitude and sentiment, which has continued across the decades and the various pontificates because it is the mind of the Church

We embrace the clergy and the faithful of the non-Catholic Churches and Communities for what they are: members of the one Body of Christ who are our brothers and sisters as articulated by Vatican II
The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect

I frankly do not understand what you are asking. We do not regard Christians who are not Catholic as “schismatics”. As Pope Saint John Paul II wrote

When Pope Benedict made his pilgrimage to the places associated with Luther, specifically to Erfurt, it was a memory of a lifetime for all of us and a capstone in his own life and ministry

http://saltandlighttv.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/pope_with_lutheran.jpg

The bolded and underlined text is most important: for we Catholics have much to learn from our reformed brothers and sisters, just as we can be an enrichment to them. But that is certainly not achieved or even reflected by attitudes that are simply to be consigned to the 16th century from which they came.

Contemporary Catholics can commit a schismatic act such as when Marcel Lefebvre and his followers ordained bishops without a pontifical mandate…but even there, the excommunications were against those directly responsible: the bishops involved with other canonical penalties having been assessed against the clergy

Relative to Reformed Christians and other Christians who are not Catholic? Goodness, no! This is not the 16th century

The Catholic laity on this thread who think with the mindset of the 16th century are so far removed from the mind of the Holy See today that I consider them meriting only to be ignored.

From Conflict to Communion concludes

I suggest, Wannano, that you keep pace with the Holy See and the world’s Catholic bishops – and not pay attention to the Catholic stragglers lacking the awareness cited above…they may find themselves in the same plight as the foolish virgins in the Gospel parable.

Thank you for this, Father.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

That does seem to be where a lot of these Protestant threads tend to go, isn’t it? Not forgetting the fire and brimstone we are given when we choose to stand steadfast in our own Confessions. Psst, by the way, we actually do hold the one true faith as we affirm the Athanasian Creed, which gives a definitive answer as to what a Catholic actually is
bookofconcord.org/creeds.php.

And I just had occasion to post something from Pope Benedict XVI attesting to the very fact that we hold in common the Church’s ancient creeds.

I find this to be one of the great issues to beware of: the Catholics who post here are not the following

1. Clergy…with exceptions for a few of us who are ordained.
2. Theologians…which are even more rare.
3. Ecclesiologists…which are even more sorely lacking
4. Ecumenists…and that part is tragic most of all since the Council Fathers decreed that every Catholic was to take up and enact in their own lives the ecumenical imperative that they articulated at Vatican II.

I think you have to discern that the utter failure in quality of the threads is because the Catholic contributors are so lacking in their ability to fulfill or even articulate what Vatican II and the Post-Conciliar Church teaches and herself holds.

 

[LutheranScholar]

And I just had occasion to post something from Pope Benedict XVI attesting to the very fact that we hold in common the Church’s ancient creeds.

I find this to be one of the great issues to beware of: the Catholics who post here are not the following

1. Clergy…with exceptions for a few of us who are ordained.
2. Theologians…which are even more rare.
3. Ecclesiologists…which are even more sorely lacking
4. Ecumenists…and that part is tragic most of all since the Council Fathers decreed that every Catholic was to take up and enact in their own lives the ecumenical imperative that they articulated at Vatican II.

I think you have to discern that the utter failure in quality of the threads is because the Catholic contributors are so lacking in their ability to fulfill or even articulate what Vatican II and the Post-Conciliar Church teaches and herself holds.

Thank you for pointing that out, as well, Father. I will keep that in mind for future exchanges. The peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The peace of the Lord be with you.

And also with you.

From the speech of Pope Benedict in Cologne in 2005

I would like now to express the joy I feel on the occasion of my Visit to Germany, in being able to meet you and offer a warm greeting to you, the Representatives of the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities.

As a native of this Country, I am quite aware of the painful situation which the rupture of unity in the profession of the faith has entailed for so many individuals and families. This was one of the reasons why, immediately following my election as Bishop of Rome, I declared, as the Successor of the Apostle Peter, my firm commitment to making the recovery of full and visible Christian unity a priority of my Pontificate

In doing so, I wished consciously to follow in the footsteps of two of my great Predecessors: Pope Paul VI, who over 40 years ago signed the conciliar Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, and Pope John Paul II, who made that Document the inspiration for his activity

In ecumenical dialogue Germany without a doubt has a place of particular importance. We are the Country where the Reformation began; however, Germany is also one of the countries where the ecumenical movement of the 20th century originated /…/

I feel the fact that we consider one another brothers and sisters, that we love one another, that together we are witnesses of Jesus Christ, should not be taken so much for granted. I believe that this brotherhood is in itself a very important fruit of dialogue that we must rejoice in, continue to foster and to practice.

Among Christians, fraternity is not just a vague sentiment, nor is it a sign of indifference to truth. As you just said, Bishop, it is grounded in the supernatural reality of the one Baptism which makes us all members of the one Body of Christ (cf. I Cor 12: 13; Gal 3: 28; Col 2: 12)

Together we confess that Jesus Christ is God and Lord; together we acknowledge him as the one mediator between God and man /…/

I would like to mention the re-examination of the mutual condemnations, called for by John Paul II during his first Visit to Germany. I recall with some nostalgia that first Visit. I was able to be present when we were together at Mainz in a fairly small and authentic fraternal circle. Some questions were put to the Pope and he described a broad theological vision in which reciprocity was amply treated.

That colloquium gave rise to an episcopal, that is, a Church commission, under ecclesial responsibility. Finally, with the contribution of theologians it led to the important Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (1999) and to an agreement on basic issues that had been a subject of controversy since the 16th century /…/

May I make a small comment: now, it is said that following the clarification regarding the Doctrine of Justification, the elaboration of ecclesiological issues and the questions concerning ministry are the main obstacles still to be overcome. In short, this is true, but I must also say that I dislike this terminology, which from a certain point of view delimits the problem since it seems that we must now debate about institutions instead of the Word of God, as though we had to place our institutions in the centre and fight for them. I think that in this way the ecclesiological issue as well as that of the “Ministerium” are not dealt with correctly. /…/

We all know there are numerous models of unity and you know that the Catholic Church also has as her goal the full visible unity of the disciples of Christ, as defined by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in its various Documents (cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 13; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.) /…/

On the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!

It does not mean uniformity in all expressions of theology and spirituality, in liturgical forms and in discipline. Unity in multiplicity, and multiplicity in unity

/…/

To this end, dialogue has its own contribution to make. More than an exchange of thoughts, an academic exercise, it is an exchange of gifts (cf. Ut Unum Sint, n. 28), in which the Churches and the Ecclesial Communities can make available their own riches (cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 15; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 3, 14ff.; Ut Unum Sint, nn. 10-14) /…/

It is obvious that this dialogue can develop only in a context of sincere and committed spirituality. We cannot “bring about” unity by our powers alone. We can only obtain unity as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, spiritual ecumenism - prayer, conversion and the sanctification of life - constitutes the heart of the meeting and of the ecumenical movement (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 8; Ut Unum Sint, 15ff., 21, etc.). It could be said that the best form of ecumenism consists in living in accordance with the Gospel /…/

The father of spiritual ecumenism, Paul Couturier, spoke in this regard of an “invisible cloister” which unites within its walls those souls inflamed with love for Christ and his Church. I am convinced that if more and more people unite themselves interiorly to the Lord’s prayer “that all may be one” (Jn 17: 21), then this prayer, made in the Name of Jesus, will not go unheard (cf. Jn 14: 13; 15: 7, 16, etc.).

With the help that comes from on high, we will also find practical solutions to the different questions which remain open, and in the end our desire for unity will come to fulfilment, whenever and however the Lord wills.

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2005/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050819_ecumenical-meeting.html

 

[Reuben_J]

Why does everyone have to make such complexity to something so very simple.
St. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, (1st. John 1:9) “If we confess our sins He is FAITHFUL and JUST to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Period! St. John made no other application. His words are binding because he was, and is, God’s voice to the people of God.

The retaining and releasing of sins Cwitness mentioned in Jesus words to his disciples found in John 20 is true only in connection with the entire verse. Jesus breathed on them and commanded them to receive the Holy Spirit. This was a regeneration of their spirits and a justification before God. They were born from above in that moment.

Hi. I don’t know about that. I don’t come from that tradition but for the sake of information, maybe you can explain how this work.

To whom you confess the sins and how they are forgiven?

Keep in mind that the Apostles were not the only ones to receive this declarative power over sins, Luke’s gospel (of the same event) tells us how the two on the road to Emmaus and “those who were gathered” with the eleven disciples (Lu.24:33) were present and commanded to practice the same judgment. What a responsibility to be led by the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people.

Again, would be glad to hear what is ‘to practice the same judgment’. Thanks.

**
Luke 24 (KJV)**
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[steve_b]

Why does everyone have to make such complexity to something so very simple.
St. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, (1st. John 1:9) “If we confess our sins He is FAITHFUL and JUST to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Period! St. John made no other application. His words are binding because he was, and is, God’s voice to the people of God.

The retaining and releasing of sins Cwitness mentioned in Jesus words to his disciples found in John 20 is true only in connection with the entire verse. Jesus breathed on them and commanded them to receive the Holy Spirit. This was a regeneration of their spirits and a justification before God. They were born from above in that moment.

Re: mortal sin
1 John 5:16

and

Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive all sins, **In Context ** ] and in extension those they ordained.

 

[rcwitness]

When a priest posts here, “Catholics who post here are not following (the magisterium)”

How are we to know which posters are being referred to? It implies all Catholic posters! Kinda problematic, no?

 

[rcwitness]

The ecumenical efforts by our recent Pope’s are good, and show much constructive hope in peaceful progress among Christians.

I have expressed the principle of this statement from the Catechism in my posts. However, we should know that the bolder part, no matter how good the intentions and gestures are, is what Protestants find so horrifying and unable to accept. Because it suggests their Communion lacks knowing and following Jesus completely.

The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect

 

[steve_b]

The ecumenical efforts by our recent Pope’s are good, and show much constructive hope in peaceful progress among Christians.

I have expressed the principle of this statement from the Catechism in my posts. However, we should know that the bolder part, no matter how good the intentions and gestures are, is what Protestants find so horrifying and unable to accept. Because it suggests their Communion lacks knowing and following Jesus completely.The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect

True

So how does the Magisterium address this?

Lumen Gentium teaches in paragraph 28 about all that separation out there and what the hierarchy of the Church is to do

https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14846111&postcount=97
vatican.va/archive/hist_c…entium_en.html

28…“Let them remember that by their daily life and interests they are showing the face of a truly sacerdotal and pastoral ministry to the faithful and the infidel, to Catholics and non-Catholics, and that to all they bear witness to the truth and life, and as good shepherds go after those also,(189) who though baptized in the Catholic Church have fallen away from the use of the sacraments, or even from the faith. Because the human race today is joining more and more into a civic, economic and social unity, it is that much the more necessary that priests, by combined effort and aid, under the leadership of the bishops and the Supreme Pontiff, wipe out every kind of separateness, so that the whole human race may be brought into the unity of the family of God.”

That’s what Jesus wants … perfectly one
John 17:23 ]

 

[Peter_J]

Great post, Father. If I might piggyback on your first paragraph,

You have been here for some time now, Wannano. The posters to whom you refer merit one thing only…to be ignored

then I would add that I have a number of friends who have told me they are reluctant to use the “Ignore List” feature. To them I say “So then do you ‘Subscribe’ to every single Youtuber?”

 

[rcwitness]

Great post, Father. If I might piggyback on your first paragraph,

then I would add that I have a number of friends who have told me they are reluctant to use the “Ignore List” feature. To them I say “So then do you ‘Subscribe’ to every single Youtuber?”

I would hope a priest trying to answer questions and concerns of the faith is a lot different than surfing YouTube.

 

[Peter_J]

When a priest posts here, “Catholics who post here are not following (the magisterium)”

Not so, the post says “are not the following …”

And I just had occasion to post something from Pope Benedict XVI attesting to the very fact that we hold in common the Church’s ancient creeds.

**I find this to be one of the great issues to beware of: the Catholics who post here are not the following
**

1. Clergy…with exceptions for a few of us who are ordained.
2. Theologians…which are even more rare.
3. Ecclesiologists…which are even more sorely lacking
4. Ecumenists…and that part is tragic most of all since the Council Fathers decreed that every Catholic was to take up and enact in their own lives the ecumenical imperative that they articulated at Vatican II.

I think you have to discern that the utter failure in quality of the threads is because the Catholic contributors are so lacking in their ability to fulfill or even articulate what Vatican II and the Post-Conciliar Church teaches and herself holds.

And I also see that he made clear that there are exceptions, e.g. he isn’t claiming that there are absolutely no clergy posting here.

 

[rcwitness]

Not so, the post says “are not the following …”

And I also see that he made clear that there are exceptions, e.g. he isn’t claiming that there are absolutely no clergy posting here.

that’s true. Thanks for that correction.

 

[Peter_J]

I would hope a priest trying to answer questions and concerns of the faith is a lot different than surfing YouTube.

Oh don’t worry, I *am *subscribed (or rather, the CAF equivalent of being subscribed) to Don Ruggero’s posts. I was just speaking to people who don’t want to use the Ignore List feature at all, and hence are “subscribed” to every single poster on here (including those who say that all Protestants are going to hell, or defend White Nationalism, etc).

 

[rcwitness]

Oh don’t worry, I *am *subscribed (or rather, the CAF equivalent of being subscribed) to Don Ruggero’s posts. I was just speaking to people who don’t want to use the Ignore List feature at all, and hence are “subscribed” to every single poster on here (including those who say that all Protestants are going to hell, or defend White Nationalism, etc).

yes. I don’t voluntarily ignore anyone. It doesn’t mean I am obligated to read or respond to everything.

 

[rcwitness]

I myself am ignored. And I’ve never exhibited those sentiments.