How can Protestants be forgiven for sins? (Please, any adivce appreciated)

[MichaelP3]

Very true. It’s not fair to demand an answer to what will happen if we don’t do what the Church Teaches. Especially when that person grew up, learned about Jesus, and was Baptized in a different Church.

Hi RC. I really wonder what you mean here?

 

[steve_b]

Hi Reuben, what scripture is used as a basis for the above? I agree that the church is necessary for salvation in that we were given the Great Commission. The result of our faithfulness to the command to teach all nations and to baptize the converts is the church, that is, people who believe on Christs message (the message contained in your logo)

To add to what Ruben said

(emphasis mine)
846
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

1. To answer your first question, (where in scripture and tradition is that?) see ** #40 ] **

2. How is one to gain “knowing” about the Catholic Church?

By the Catholic Church and faithful Catholics evangelizing the world about the truth of Jesus and His One Holy Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation.

Also

ignorance of this knowledge, isn’t automatically innocent.

**1791 **This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

That said

Examples from Lumen Gentium
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Re: hierarchy of the Church

28…“Let them remember that by their daily life and interests they are showing the face of a truly sacerdotal and pastoral ministry to the faithful and the infidel, to Catholics and non-Catholics, and that to all they bear witness to the truth and life, and as good shepherds go after those also,(189) who though baptized in the Catholic Church have fallen away from the use of the sacraments, or even from the faith. Because the human race today is joining more and more into a civic, economic and social unity, it is that much the more necessary that priests, by combined effort and aid, under the leadership of the bishops and the Supreme Pontiff, wipe out every kind of separateness, so that the whole human race may be brought into the unity of the family of God.”

meaning NO prelate in the Church or Catholic in general,

is to encourage in any way, or tell one who is separated from the Catholic Church, that their separateness from the Catholic Church is OK, or no big deal, or say just be a good separated brother/sister and the Church says they are okay…

Re: CCC 846 top of page, is from paragraph 14 of Lumen Gentium above document.

 

[ajcstr]

Hi RC. I really wonder what you mean here?

I think he is just saying its difficult to apply the rules that bind Catholics to someone who grew up and was taught in a different tradition. I know you can read it an alternate way, but I don’t think that there was any judgemental intent behind it.

 

[MichaelP3]

Taking the above I ask… really? Is this helping CAF? Or at least the non-Catholic section?

Edit: not directly above. One above that.

 

[MichaelP3]

I think he is just saying its difficult to apply the rules that bind Catholics to someone who grew up and was taught in a different tradition. I know you can read it an alternate way, but I don’t think that there was any judgemental intent behind it.

You are right and I do not assume anything. I have seen RCs posts and respect them. I won’t assume anything just like that. That is why I ask and just don’t go on a responding rampage

 

[Vonsalza]

Isn’t it where Catholic teaching is supposed to be explained CORRECTLY " by Catholics ?

On free, public forums of any stripe: Caveat Emptor.

Thats my whole point. It doesn’t help to say it is but only one person… 100s read these without batting an eye.

It appears to be a “much given, much required” situation that also suggests “little given, little required”. The standard on these technical matters is rather subjective; loving God that He is.

Obviously you’ll encounter dissenters to that idea on these forums, but I can at least somewhat defend my view with the CCC and papal teaching, so

 

[steve_b]

Thankyou for this clarification. Yes, I am increasingly becoming aware that many Catholic posters on CAF are not reliable fountains of knowledge of current CC determinations. I find it very interesting because many of these same posters like to point out the perceived deficiencies of the Protestant churches by stating how superior it is to have the Magisterium to give a Spirit led unified voice to practical Christian living. But when they do not submit to the current Magisterium and want to enforce the old understandings of the past have they themselves not become the modern schismatics causing dissension within the Church?

How does the contemporary Church handle schmismatics? Do the anathemas of Trent still apply to modern schismatics?

Re: anathemas of Trent catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/anathema

Yesterday’s and today’s Heresies are still heresies catholic.com/tract/the-great-heresies

The CCC (definitions of popular terms)
**2089 ***Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; ***apostasy ***is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

 

[MichaelP3]

On free, public forums of any stripe: Caveat Emptor.

It appears to be a “much given, much required” situation that also suggests “little given, little required”. The standard on these technical matters is rather subjective; loving God that He is.

Obviously you’ll encounter dissenters to that idea on these forums, but I can at least somewhat defend my view with the CCC and papal teaching, so

Honestly I have absolutely no idea what you just said!

Or meant?

What I may have understood: You do know Protestants also have internet and can google CCC and Papal teaching?

Regards

 

[tgGodsway]

I agree Michael p3. I have no idea what she means.

How can protestants be forgiven of their sins? In the same way that Catholics can be forgiven. By obeying the words of St. John who said, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1st. John 1:9

 

[spedteacherita]

I agree Michael p3. I have no idea what she means.

How can protestants be forgiven of their sins? In the same way that Catholics can be forgiven. By obeying the words of St. John who said, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1st. John 1:9

 

[MichaelP3]

I agree Michael p3. I have no idea what she means.

How can protestants be forgiven of their sins? In the same way that Catholics can be forgiven. By obeying the words of St. John who said, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1st. John 1:9

Well that I can’t argue!

Thank you

 

[rcwitness]

James 5
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

The Didache
thou shalt confess thy transgressions in the Church, and shalt not come unto prayer with an evil conscience. This is the path of life.

 

[MichaelP3]

James 5
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

The Didache
thou shalt confess thy transgressions in the Church, and shalt not come unto prayer with an evil conscience. This is the path of life.

Hi RC.

Back to the topic I guess you are planning to make this go… okay.

Well what you have posted there would be absolutely correct! even for Protestants!

 

[steve_b]

My point, is that it’s not necessarily a yes or no answer. Yes, a non-Catholic can be forgiven mortal death of sins. But it depends on Christ’s judgment of their heart, and whether or not they know that God instituted forgiveness through Bishops and the priests under their care. If they follow the essence of that principle, which is acknowledging their harmful sin to the body, and confess to brothers and sisters in their community (not attempting to conceal their sin), then that is accomplishing what the law is intended for, even though their is an imperfect application.

That is the way I understand the Teaching and how it may relate to non-Catholic believers in the Father.

It has to do with contrition

And with respect to Mortal sin

then

1448 , 1452 , 1453 ,1457

see the conditions? Always refers to the sacrament of reconciliation.

As John teaches, he doesn’t recommend prayer as THE solution for the forgiveness of Mortal sin. 1 John 5:16
Which is what the Church is referring to in those CCC links pointing to the sacrament

 

[rcwitness]

Hi RC. I really wonder what you mean here?

I think he is just saying its difficult to apply the rules that bind Catholics to someone who grew up and was taught in a different tradition. I know you can read it an alternate way, but I don’t think that there was any judgemental intent behind it.

Yes, thank you. And even then, how do we know the depths of the mercy of God? All we know, is that we should confess ours sins to God, and to one another, and that if we do not receive forgiveness through those placed over us, our sins will be retained!

John 20
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Hi RC.

Back to the topic I guess you are planning to make this go… okay.

Well what you have posted there would be absolutely correct! even for Protestants!

Yes, if your obedience to what Jesus intends is fullfilled. Ya know, I actually think that confessing in the Sacrament is the minimum requirement. I think confessing to those who were directly affected should not be neglected, and to those who will pray and offer counsel among your parish is good for overcoming.

 

[steve_b]

James 5 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

Who was called? The priests.

Jas 5:
13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders **presbuteros ** ] of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.c] 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects."

That’s in context of who they confessed to. The priest of the Church who were called in

catholic.com/qa/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned

 

[MichaelP3]

Yes, if your obedience to what Jesus intends is fullfilled. Ya know, I actually think that confessing in the Sacrament is the minimum requirement. I think confessing to those who were directly affected should not be neglected, and to those who will pray and offer counsel among your parish is good for overcoming.

You know RC

I am actually saddened by your response considering our (kinda past).
What you say there is hard on Christianity. You go on to say those affected are needed (in the sin) and I agree. Actually now that I think about it, do you mean "actual Confession to a Priest and so "(That would be the sad part) or confessing to the aggrieved party as it may sound?

Actually I have no idea what you meant? Please clarify?

Regards

 

[rcwitness]

You know RC

I am actually saddened by your response considering our (kinda past).
What you say there is hard on Christianity. You go on to say those affected are needed (in the sin) and I agree. Actually now that I think about it, do you mean "actual Confession to a Priest and so "(That would be the sad part) or confessing to the aggrieved party as it may sound?

Actually I have no idea what you meant? Please clarify?

Side note: I do not know what you mean, so please clarify. I may be wrong?

Regards

I mean for Catholics. And by that I don’t think that Jesus gives one set of Christians a rule, and others a different rule. I believe the Catholic position is correct. That’s why I am Catholic. And for those who are not Catholic (whether Baptized or not) the culpability depends on their knowledge and conviction. Like ajcstr said also, I cannot say how Jesus may receive other confessions (specifically for Mortal sins). I believe it’s very possible, but it’s Jesus who is aware of what they know is right.

There might seem to be a touch of “relativism” when St James Teaches, but I think it all comes down to culpability.

James 4
** Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. **

This can even apply to Catholics who were not instructed properly, or who’s parents were awful teachers.

Consider that even Apollos knew Scripture, and was instructed in the way of the Lord, and taught accurately before being Taught more accurately!

Acts 18
Now a Jew named Apol′los, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, well versed in the scriptures.*He had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John.26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and expounded to him the way of God more accurately.

Do not think I am against you Michael! I assume you are genuine. This is a hard question, but not because of the Catholic Teachings. It’s hard because we live with a broken Church. One that has splintered and those splinters have children, and those children are not always culpable for not knowing or doubting some Teachings, on account of men.

Let each person listen to Jesus, and hear His voice. I hear it in the Teachings of the Catholic faith. You may doubt, because you don’t trust men! I don’t trust men either. I have been let down by Catholic clergy! But I have also been a wolf, and have great sorrow for it all!

I hear and understand your struggle! I share it. But not necessarily the same specific things. We have to detach from the world to listen to Jesus’ voice. That’s what we are all trying to do!

God bless your search. I can’t really say too much more about this right now.

 

[tgGodsway]

Why does everyone have to make such complexity to something so very simple.
St. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, (1st. John 1:9) “If we confess our sins He is FAITHFUL and JUST to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Period! St. John made no other application. His words are binding because he was, and is, God’s voice to the people of God.

The retaining and releasing of sins Cwitness mentioned in Jesus words to his disciples found in John 20 is true only in connection with the entire verse. Jesus breathed on them and commanded them to receive the Holy Spirit. This was a regeneration of their spirits and a justification before God. They were born from above in that moment.

Keep in mind that the Apostles were not the only ones to receive this declarative power over sins, Luke’s gospel (of the same event) tells us how the two on the road to Emmaus and “those who were gathered” with the eleven disciples (Lu.24:33) were present and commanded to practice the same judgment. What a responsibility to be led by the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people.

 

[Wannano]

Why does everyone have to make such complexity to something so very simple.

Is it possible that it is something to do with money? Religion has become big business in many ways and yet we are told that it is impossible to serve both God and mammon.

St. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, (1st. John 1:9) “If we confess our sins He is FAITHFUL and JUST to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Period! St. John made no other application. His words are binding because he was, and is, God’s voice to the people of God.

Catholic or Protestant this is all we need. Thanks for contributing the truth. I also love the thoughts in Psalm 103…“as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.”

The retaining and releasing of sins Cwitness mentioned in Jesus words to his disciples found in John 20 is true only in connection with the entire verse. Jesus breathed on them and commanded them to receive the Holy Spirit. This was a regeneration of their spirits and a justification before God. They were born from above in that moment.

I would love to have you expound more on this.

Keep in mind that the Apostles were not the only ones to receive this declarative power over sins, Luke’s gospel (of the same event) tells us how the two on the road to Emmaus and “those who were gathered” with the eleven disciples (Lu.24:33) were present and commanded to practice the same judgment. What a responsibility to be led by the Holy Spirit in the lives of God’s people.

PS: I was in your town last winter…nice countryside!