How Can Protestants Be Sure?

[Randy_Carson]

The Bible speaks about being converted by the savior, NOT converting to another church!!! Does the church save or does Jesus?

If SS is made born again through Faith in Jesus, is he born again and again by joining the RCC?

No one goes to heaven by bowing the knee to a pope.

Kaycee-

Has anyone ever suggested that heaven can be attained by bending the knee before a Pope? This type of statement is beneath you.

You and Mr. Scriptura would do well to enter the true Church precisely for this reason:

“If you love me, you will obey my commands.”

On each and every doctrinal point, the Catholic Church faithfully obeys her Bridegroom’s voice.

You should do the same.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

No, I’m saying it is based on false Catholic theology so it doesn’t matter to me anymore than anything else someone would do based on false teachings.

You have a false Catholic theology? That would be a problem.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You have a false Catholic theology? That would be a problem.

Whatever. Nice talking with you. Bye bye.

 

[MrS]

The point is why do we need to be subject to a yoke of bondage under the pope for salvation?

It is only a “yoke of bondage” to one who will not submit to authority other than his or her own… even if Jesus Himself wants it that way.

I would list the Catholic interpreted Scripture verses (from the Bible which comes to all from the Holy Spirit through the Catholic Church) that support this, but unless you have eyes to see and ears to hear, you will walk away.

Many will be saved without “submitting” to the Pope… perhaps.

But outright rejection is another story. If you really love the word of God, you must listen to it all… and protestantism has proven to be based only on Sola Soma Scriptura… and hence the outcome… no valid authority, no faith in Jesus’ Church… no acceptance of much of the Fullness of Truth.

sad

 

[kaycee]

Kaycee-

Has anyone ever suggested that heaven can be attained by bending the knee before a Pope? This type of statement is beneath you.

In his papal Bull Unam Sanctam (1302), Pope Boniface VIII declared: “We are obliged . . . to believe . . . that outside [the Roman Catholic church] there is neither salvation nor remission of sins. . . . Furthermore we declare, state, define, and pronounce that it is **altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff.” **To this may be added the words of Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council, “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved”; and those of Pope Eugene IV in his papal Bull, Cantate Domino, "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal. . . . No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Did Vatican II change this or was Vatican II not infallible?

Clearly there is no room for seperated brethren here, and never any mention of it.

 

[MrS]

Yep, you must be subject to the Chair of Peter…

where is that found today???

in the Vicar of Christ, the Roman Pontiff

The Vicar of Christ was instructed to “…feed My sheep, tend My flock, feed My sheep…”

not you

not your pastor

not your private interpretations

not your burning in the bossom…

and on and on and on

 

[Randy_Carson]

So hopefully you understand if your remembering me in your prayers doesn’t do much for me, but if that makes you feel pious then that is your choice.

My Catholic brothers and sisters,

When I read these words, I was reminded of the many times in Scripture that Paul requested the prayers of the Church. One example of this is the following:

Romans 15:30
I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.

If the holy Apostle St. Paul could covet the prayers of others, surely Mr. Scriptura could, as well. Instead, I believe his recent remarks reflect a high degree of anger and animosity that have resulted from his constant “combat” here in this forum.

Boxed in and stymied at every turn on many subjects about which he is either uninformed or misinformed, he has been reduced to swinging wildly in the dark at the slightest sound or movement. If he came here to lead Catholics out of the Church, he has failed. If he came to learn more about the true Christian Church, he has not proven to be a very willing student.

I would advise that we all back off - disengage from him completely - lest he fall into even greater sin as a result of our efforts to show him his errors.

In time, the Holy Spirit may cause some of the seeds we have planted over the past few weeks to germinate within his soul. Apart from this, I personally do not want to contribute to additional embitteredness.

Sola, peace be with you.

Randy

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Actually his assurance is based on the God Breathed scripture. Your “assurance” is based on a second generation trust and faith in the RCC, not the More Sure Word.

Yikes another whole thread.

(Edited by Moderator)

Isn’t your “assurance” based on the “second generation faith” then. The bible didn’t write itself. It came to you through the same Christ’s Church that exists today in the Catholic Church. The priests and bishops that heard God’s word being breathed and wrote so you could believe were all members of the Catholic Church.

History can’t be rewritten to follow your traditions to the contrary.

Again Christ is the head of the Catholic Church. In your terms we need to be subject to a yoke of bondage for Christ for salvation. We don’t see it as bondage, but if that helps you understand, so be it.

Why not submit to Christ and his Church? Is that just to difficult for some people?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Actually his assurance is based on the God Breathed scripture. Your “assurance” is based on a second generation trust and faith in the RCC, not the More Sure Word.

Kaycee-

If you are seriously ill, let’s say it’s a serious liver ailment, at some point you must trust that those doctors who know more than you are going to do the right things to make you well again.

Similarly, the Catholic Church, as an infallible interpreter of the “More Sure Word” can help me to understand those things which are not so clear. If the Bible could be understood by anyone working it out on their own, then we would not have so many different interpretations among Protestantism (or Catholicism either for that matter).

The point is why do we need to be subject to a yoke of bondage under the pope for salvation?

You choose words loaded with negative connotations. Why not consider that Jesus left you, little sheep, with a shepherd who will feed and care for you?

 

[Randy_Carson]

In his papal Bull Unam Sanctam (1302), Pope Boniface VIII declared: “We are obliged . . . to believe . . . that outside [the Roman Catholic church] there is neither salvation nor remission of sins. . . . Furthermore we declare, state, define, and pronounce that it is **altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff.” **To this may be added the words of Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council, “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved”; and those of Pope Eugene IV in his papal Bull, Cantate Domino, "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal. . . . No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Did Vatican II change this or was Vatican II not infallible?

Clearly there is no room for seperated brethren here, and never any mention of it.

Kaycee-

This is troubling, isn’t it?

 

[ncgolf]

kaycee:

Actually his assurance is based on the God Breathed scripture. Your “assurance” is based on a second generation trust and faith in the RCC, not the More Sure Word.

Which one the one with 66 or the one with 73? He cannot base it on the Book but on his interpretation of the Bible … that is what the Church does … interpret. The practice of Sola Scriptura reduces interpretation of Scripture to mere opinion … not a command.

The problem with believing Sola Scriptura is not that truth is not revealed in the Bible or that any one person may gleam truths contained in the Bible but we are talking the entire Bible. I don’t have to have Rome’s interpretation of the Parable of the Lost Son to understand it. I can see it the same as anyone else but I on my own cannot gleam the whole truth of the Bible. I have been told by Protestants that the Bible is self revealing then told I cannot understand it unless I have studied the original Greek and studied ancient culture … well what is it?

So it does become a question of where does the fullest of interpretation lie. If it lies with “Sola Scriptura” then “Sola” is to be followed. How about you Kaycee … you want to give it a try?

Sola Scriptura gives you that option. If one truly believes in Sola Scriptura then I cannot see why anyone should seriously listen to anyone else … you never know where they may lead you. I cannot trust anyone … only the Book. The only sure thing you have is what you can convince yourself of.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Due to failing charity on both sides of the discussion, this thread is now closed.