How can the Collapse of the Liturgy be reversed?

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Rickwood said:
Oh, I don’t buy that garbage in the least. I run into groups at both of my parishes that chant the mantra “there are only five real Catholic universities left in the USA.” That’s ridiculous. In the same parishes we have wonderful, very well qualified layperson staffers who attended “non”-Catholic schools (according to the chanters) like CUA and Notre Dame.

Your comment “does it really take a PhD to follow the GIRM? What in the world did poor village priests do for the past 1900 years?” just made my point. The liturgy is not trivial, yet some feel the need to trivialize it.
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Consider the logic here. If the there has been a collapse of the liturgy as the pope declares, that means that at one point the liturgy was not in a state of collapse. The collapse is a recent event. Now, are there really fewer people with advanced degrees in liturgy now then when the liturgy was not in a state of collapse 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000 years ago? Of course that is not the case. If anything, there is a positive correlation between the number of people with advanced liturgical degrees and the collapse of the liturgy. But I won’t claim cause and effect there.

But anyway, your solution is noted.
 
VociMike said:
Consider the logic here. If the there has been a collapse of the liturgy as the pope declares, that means that at one point the liturgy was not in a state of collapse. The collapse is a recent event.
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How do you know that it’s a “recent event?” Did Pope say so? No. (It’s not a logical conclusion by the way.)
VociMike said:
Now, are there really fewer people with advanced degrees in liturgy now then when the liturgy was not in a state of collapse 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000 years ago?
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It could very easily mean that such people are not being placed in critical positions. As another poster suggested, many parishes and even dioceses just grab on to freebies or perhaps low priced individuals without any real qualifications except for reading the GIRM and RS.
VociMike said:
Of course that is not the case. If anything, there is a positive correlation between the number of people with advanced liturgical degrees and the collapse of the liturgy. But I won’t claim cause and effect there.
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Actually you’re probably wrong. The lion’s share of those taking degrees in Catholic liturgy or theology are clerics. There are FAR fewer seminarians and priests today.
 
I have been trying to find an old link to the document. As I believe I did say, it was not ‘binding’ (mandatory) but it definitely expressed the idea that one should be 'listening" and NOT reading along. I would say it was probably out in the late 90s or early 2000 or so and again, it related to the epistle and gospel specifically. When I find it again, I’ll post it. It did, of course, predate R.S. and certainly predated the restoration of the E.F.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
I have been trying to find an old link to the document. As I believe I did say, it was not ‘binding’ (mandatory) but it definitely expressed the idea that one should be 'listening" and NOT reading along. I would say it was probably out in the late 90s or early 2000 or so and again, it related to the epistle and gospel specifically. When I find it again, I’ll post it. It did, of course, predate R.S. and certainly predated the restoration of the E.F.
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The key word in all of this is listening. We are called to listen attentively as the reader, deacon or priest proclaims God’s Word. Unless one is unable to hear, one should not be reading along with a text from a missal or missalette. Rather, taking our cue from the General Instruction itself, we should listen as we would if Christ himself were standing at the ambo, for in fact it is God who speaks when the Scriptures are proclaimed. Carefully following along with the printed word can cause us to miss the gentle voice of the Holy Spirit, the message that the Spirit may have for us in one of the passages because we are anxious to ‘keep up,’ to move along with the reader.
Source
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As with most documents from the USCCB, it’s worth reading and considering, and there is some merit to the argument. However, I ultimately disagree - I think most people absorb more and are less distracted when using sight and sound simultaneously, in other words both reading and listening.
 
As far as music is concerned - make the tools easy to use.

Ordinary folks can sing chant. To bring it back as a common practice, they will need learn/re-learn by ear from parish musicians. Which means parish musicians will need to learn/re-learn it, but they in turn will need to use/frequently refer to books. Plenty of volunteer musicians I know could learn chant from me by ear but would freak out if I gave them a book full of neumes with no word of English anywhere, not even in the foreword. (I’m an early music enthusiast but most parish volunteers are not.)

Make modern-notation editions of the basics with the explanatory text in English readily available. Remove unnecessary hurdles/excuses.
 
Digitonomy said:
However, I ultimately disagree - I think most people absorb more and are less distracted when using sight and sound simultaneously, in other words both reading and listening.
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Studies on the use of PowerPoint indicate otherwise. 😛
 
Rickwood said:
How do you know that it’s a “recent event?” Did Pope say so? No. (It’s not a logical conclusion by the way.)

It could very easily mean that such people are not being placed in critical positions. ** As another poster suggested, many parishes and even dioceses just grab on to freebies or perhaps low priced individuals without any real qualifications except for reading the GIRM and RS.**

Actually you’re probably wrong. The lion’s share of those taking degrees in Catholic liturgy or theology are clerics. There are FAR fewer seminarians and priests today.
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By the type of concerns that people ask about in this forum --it is more likely documents like RS-2004 and other directives issued by the Church are not being applied. And this deals not only with volunteers but also with the clergy.
 
Digitonomy said:
As with most documents from the USCCB, it’s worth reading and considering, and there is some merit to the argument. However, I ultimately disagree - I think most people absorb more and are less distracted when using sight and sound simultaneously, in other words both reading and listening.
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I FULLY agree. I remember back to English lit – we had Shakespeare right in front of us as we read along while listening to the instructor. Best way to absorb – at least for me.
 
Rickwood said:
I
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitonomy View Post
As with most documents from the USCCB, it’s worth reading and considering, and there is some merit to the argument. However, I ultimately disagree - I think most people absorb more and are less distracted when using sight and sound simultaneously, in other words both reading and listening.

FULLY agree. I remember back to English lit – we had Shakespeare right in front of us as we read along while listening to the instructor. Best way to absorb – at least for me.
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I agree too.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
“Say the Black, Do the Red” is great. . .

for the parishes that have missals of some type.

I have been in those where they are not ‘permitted’, and where the justification is that there exists (and it is true, this document does exist) a document that states that people should not be ‘reading’ the epistles etc. but rather should be ‘listening’ instead. Of course this is not only specific to the ‘readings’ (as opposed to the Mass proper) it is also something that is not ‘mandated’ per se and in fact depending on circumstances (priest with thick accent, laity with hearing problems, etc.) would be counterproductive to the intended ‘focus on the word’ (kind of hard to focus when you can neither ‘see’ nor ‘hear’ what is being said!).

I have been in parishes where Father has been there for 10 years or so, no missal in that time, and the people honestly do not know that there have been ‘changes’ made that do not reflect the ‘black’ or the ‘red’ that is supposed to be there.

Especially if they seldom (or never) attend another parish. (I have known people who ‘prefer’ Father X’s ‘home-made’ Mass and are uncomfortable with the ‘normal’ Mass because “It just doesn’t seem as ‘real’ as Father’s, as meaningful as Father’s, as familiar as Father’s.”) The ‘orthodox’ now to them appears heterodox. . . unfamiliar, even unlikable.

This is a huge difficulty that faces the priests ‘coming in’ to deal with the aftermath (when Father ‘retires’) of finding the people complaining that “Why aren’t you saying the Mass ‘right’? Why are you saying “X”==Father always said “Y”. Why are you telling us we cannot do Z? Father always let us do Z.” etc.

One priest. . .one parish. Hundreds of souls now irrevocably confused and some even to the point of leaving the Church because “this new priest has ‘changed’ everything so it just doesn’t feel right anymore.”

One priest who (with the best of intentions no doubt) ‘changed’ the liturgy to be ‘better’ (in his eyes) and destroyed it for hundreds of people. . .and the legacy will continue as it ‘trickles’ down to the next generation who will have heard Mom, Grandpa, Great-Aunt Sue telling of how 'The Church changed all the good things and that’s why we aren’t Catholic any more."

It happens. I’ve seen it. It will keep on happening and while (praise God) most will ‘come around’, the tragedy is that for those who do not, who simply cannot accept the ‘reality’. . .it never should have happened.
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?

I have no idea what “Say the black, do the red” means.

Go ahead and laugh. Go ahead and gasp in horror at the state of Catholic catechesis in “modern” parishes.

I think that’s part of the problem. Many of you–and I’m sorry to separate “you” from “me”, but I feel that it is reality, so why not recognize it?–many of you have “knowledge” and you don’t seem to realize that many of “us” do NOT have that knowledge.

Then you go on to talk about that “knowledge” that you have, and leave all of us who aren’t doing things the “right way” in the dirt.

Have you ever been involved in a situation where everyone else is telling some “joke” or “story”, or even just having a discussion, and you have no idea what they’re talking about. You try to get in on the discussion, you try to contribute, and they just snort, or worst, ignore you and leave you out of the discussion entirely. Sometimes you bring up a point, and they say, “Oh, you don’t even know what we’re talking about. Just keep quiet.” No one tells you what the “joke” is, or where to go to find more information about the story.

If you’ve been in this situation, you’ll know how I feel when I read comments like 'Say the black, do the red," and then proceed to talk about why it’s such a good idea.

Why don’t you consider starting with the basics–and I do mean the BARE BASICS. I am an ex-Protestant, born and raised in the evangelical Protestant tradition. I hear people talk about Introits, Propers, Ordinaries, etc. and I literally have no idea what they are saying. These terms are as strange and foreign to me as the Latin that so many of you love.

A few years ago, I borrowed the middle school music history text from the Catholic school in my parish and read through it. It described all these terms, but to be honest, I thought they were history, and really didn’t take the time to memorize them or try to apply them to Mass the way it is done in the OF.

Again, go ahead and laugh or gasp in horror. But I’m telling you, that won’t do a bit of good. Pontificating on the loss of catechesis in the Catholic Church only sets “You” against “Me.”

So here’s my suggestion–figure out a way to educate people. Is there a good textbook that starts at the very beginning?

When I started learning to play the piano back in 3rd grade, I didn’t start out with Bach, even though he is considered an excellent “elementary” composer. I started out with John Thompson’s “Teaching Little Fingers to Play.” For a full year, I did nothing with both hands; I learned “precept upon precept.” And it worked. I realize that nowadays, kids are taught differently by many teachers, but I still think that the method of starting at the very beginning is a good method (not that I know anything about pedagogy).

So stop going on and on, and take a look at all the Catholics around you who truly have no idea of what the heck you’re talking about. Think of how many converts you have in the Church in the last 20 years–how would we know these things? And think of all the Catholics who grew up in the confusion surrounding Vat II, and never learned these things.

Start at the beginning, please. Point us ignoramuses towards a Children’s Text to help us to know what you are talking about first.

THEN we’ll talk about implementing it. But we can’t implement what we don’t understand.

I’m sorry if this sounds angry. It IS. I get so very upset when people accuse me of having a “Protestant” mindset towards Mass. Of COURSE I DO! What else would I have? If you don’t like it, you aren’t going to change my mindset by telling me that I need to get rid of it and pointing me towards tons of documents (out of context, BTW) that I have no idea if they are good or bad. Start at the beginning, please.

I have read the Documents of Vat II in regards to Church Music, BTW, and I don’t see what many of you see. So call me stupid. Or Protestant. They seem to be the same.
 
Walking_Home said:
Makes me wonder what will happen to that type of parish when the new order of the Mass takes effect. Will the priest and laity receive the proper catechesis that will be required.
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Rickwood said:
New order?
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I figured Walking Home meant the revised translation. Not so much a nwe “order” as a new Ordinary.

Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!
 
Hi,

We will have the Mass celebrated as the celebrant and/or Pastor prefers. (or allows) I have seen this mentioned in regard to other irregularities, and I believe this is it.

If the Pastor wants more attention to the rubrics and instructions in the GIRM, this will happen. If he is more liberal, nothing will change, unless the congregation pressures him. (And maybe not even then) It is best if a number of people address any irregularities. It is easy to ignore 1 or 2.

Complaining to the Bishop about little irregularities will not accomplish much, and will hurt you effectiveness if there is a serious problem. And all the knowledge in the world will do no good, if it is not what the Pastor wishes.

Lux
 
Cat said:
I have no idea what “Say the black, do the red” means.
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In the Missal (and most – if not all – other liturgical texts), the instructions (rubrics, from rubr- meaning “red”) are in red, and the words to say (out loud or silently) are in black. Thus, say the black, do the red: say the words the Missal has for you to say, do the things the Missal instructs you to do. In other words, don’t make stuff up.
Cat said:
many of you have “knowledge” and you don’t seem to realize that many of “us” do NOT have that knowledge.
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Not me! I’m very well aware that this knowledge I have (since only a year ago, to be honest) is not widely known, and I try to take that awareness into every one of these threads and conversations. It’s why people like me and benedictgal quote so many darned documents, so that other people (who didn’t know) learn that what we’re saying are not our opinions, but things the Church actually teaches and has written down… and we name our sources so that other people can find them and read them.
Cat said:
If you’ve been in this situation, you’ll know how I feel when I read comments like 'Say the black, do the red," and then proceed to talk about why it’s such a good idea.
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If you put down the “victim” placard, and simply ask questions, the situation resolves itself. We are not keeping you out of some “Catholic in-joke”. If you don’t understand something, just ask!
Cat said:
I hear people talk about Introits, Propers, Ordinaries, etc. and I literally have no idea what they are saying.
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Introit = the Entrance Antiphon (verse) and Psalm at the beginning of each Mass. For the upcoming Holy Day of Obligation, August 15th, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Introit is Rev. 12:1 (the antiphon) with Psalm 97:1a – “Cantate Domino canticum novum quoniam mirabilia fecit”, “Sing to God a new song, for He has done wonderful things” – (that’s Psalm 98:1a in most English bibles). The way the Introit is sung (from what I’ve read about them) is the Antiphon, then the Psalm verse(s), and then the Antiphon again, then the doxology (Gloria Patri et Filio…, “Glory to the Father and to the Son…”), and then the Antiphon once more.

Propers = The texts of the Mass that change day-to-day. This includes the antiphons used throughout the Mass (at the entrance, the offertory, and Communion), the responsorial psalm or gradual, the verse sung with the “Alleluia” before the Gospel, and the priest’s prayers at the beginning (“Collect”), at the offertory (the Super oblata, or “Prayer over the offerings”), and after Communion.

Ordinary = The texts of the Mass that don’t change day-to-day. Things like the Greeting, the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Creed, the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy), the Memorial Acclamation, the Great Amen, the Our Father, the Lamb of God.

Here’s a post from another forum that describes the various parts that Proper vs. Ordinary. (The Alleluia is a hybrid – the “Alleluia” text itself doesn’t change, but its verse does, and the chant-tune for the Alleluia is variable.)
Cat said:
Again, go ahead and laugh or gasp in horror. But I’m telling you, that won’t do a bit of good.
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Right, it’s a waste of time, which is why I don’t do it. I just get right into the nitty gritty and help.
Cat said:
So here’s my suggestion–figure out a way to educate people. Is there a good textbook that starts at the very beginning?
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I’m sure the people at the Church Music Association of America have good beginners’ resources.
Cat said:
… you aren’t going to change my mindset by telling me that I need to get rid of it and pointing me towards tons of documents (out of context, BTW) that I have no idea if they are good or bad.
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How can you tell if our quotes are out of context? And I don’t mean just by reading a paragraph above and below our quotes, I mean, if you’re coming into this needing a beginner’s text, how can you tell that our quotes are out of their true context?
Cat said:
I have read the Documents of Vat II in regards to Church Music, BTW, and I don’t see what many of you see.
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Perhaps because you don’t see the bigger context, because you have admitted you need to start with a beginner’s text.
Cat said:
So call me stupid. Or Protestant. They seem to be the same.
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No, I don’t play the “victim” game. It’s a waste of time.

Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!
 
Just a note to everyone, before someone gets offended and thinks I was addressing them specifically:

The “Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!” that I’m putting on each of my posts here is not addressed to a particular person or persons. It is merely a fervent plea to everyone participating to NOT BREAK THE FORUM RULES. This plea is actually a bit selfish, to be honest, because I’ve written some things I would have liked to retain access to in the past couple days, but those threads have been removed. I’d rather not have wasted all that time. So please, don’t get this thread deleted and end up wasting my time (and others’). Please, don’t get this thread locked, because I KNOW we can have a decent liturgical discussion without getting off-topic or attacking each other’s person or character.
 
Cat–and any others who might have a question about ‘anything’ in any of my posts:

Please, just ask me to clarify if I say something you haven’t heard of or aren’t familiar with. I’d be delighted to do so. I won’t think you’re stupid–God knows that I wasn’t born knowing everything about everything, and that even right this minute I don’t know everything about everything. Every day I read or learn something that I didn’t know before–sometimes it is stuff that a little child seems to ‘take for granted’ and here I am, over 50. . .do I feel stupid for not knowing something some 5 year old does? Well, gee, no. . .I don’t expect to know everything.

Heck, I’m starting to get those senior moments. Ask my kids. “Hon, will you get me the thing, over there?” “What, Ma?” You know, the. . .uh. . .(and through my mind are going words like basket, container, cylinder, disposal, while the word I am LOOKING FOR, believe it or not, is 'laundry hamper" but it takes me 45 seconds to get it out because there are so many other words that are jumping around inside my mind at the same time!)" So I may not be the clearest person at times, and it would be CHARITY to let me know so that I can ‘clear things up’ as best as possible not just for you but for me too, sometimes!

Actually, strangely enough, I came across the origin of that 'Say the Black, Do the Red" quote yesterday: It is apparently from Cardinal Franco and was used by him in an interview about the liturgy not all that long ago. So yeah, it does appear to be a more ‘in’ type of remark. I’ve seen the phrase used quite a lot on other threads and when Dauphin used it in this thread it reminded me that for those without the Missals (which is where you see the ‘black and the red’), the point becomes moot–how can you ‘do what the book says and say what the book says’ when you don’t have the book?

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear and again, any time I say something that you don’t understand, please feel free to ask! 🙂
 
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