How can the Collapse of the Liturgy be reversed?

[japhy]

Actually, strangely enough, I came across the origin of that 'Say the Black, Do the Red" quote yesterday: It is apparently from Cardinal Franco and was used by him in an interview about the liturgy not all that long ago. So yeah, it does appear to be a more ‘in’ type of remark. I’ve seen the phrase used quite a lot on other threads and when Dauphin used it in this thread it reminded me that for those without the Missals (which is where you see the ‘black and the red’), the point becomes moot–how can you ‘do what the book says and say what the book says’ when you don’t have the book?

It is primarily a plea to the priests and other liturgical ministers who do have the book in front of them (hopefully open).

 

[bilop]

One giant step would be to hire only “liturgists” who are clerics or laypersons with advanced degrees in liturgy – or even any bachelors degree in liturgy or even theology.

Far too many self-proclaimed “experts” out there who lack the expertise to do what they feel they are experts at doing. Sadly, they are blind to their own shortcomings and typically focus on other people as being the problem when they should be looking inward.

Oh yeah, and PRAY.

I’m sorry, what is the purpose of a “liturgist”?

I’ve never met one, heard of one, or belonged to a parish that has one.

The pastor is in charge of the liturgy. To delegate this seems odd. For a lay person to have control of the liturgy seems absurd.

Why, anyway, would a priest need help from a “liturgist”? It’s all in the Missal.

One more big plus for the EF. No options, no need for “liturgists”.

God Bless

 

[AMDGtoo]

One giant step would be to hire only “liturgists” who are clerics or laypersons with advanced degrees in liturgy – or even any bachelors degree in liturgy or even theology.

To only want “college degree-d” people (instead of people who are loyal to the Pope and the Church and have taken it upon themselves to study the Vatican II documents and the more recent Church documents concerning the liturgy) seems a bit short sighted, IMO.

As one long time (22+ years) CCD teacher pointed out to me when I didn’t think that I, as a layperson (who does not have a bunch of letters after my name) felt that I really had no business contributing to the defense of the Church, “the Apostles, the Saints, and the martyrs didn’t have high degrees, and it sure didn’t stop them,” Come to think of it, what does the high degree after the name mostly show? Why that the parents had great hopes for their child and were able to generously “foot-the-bill” for at least a major part of their child’s education. (And not everyone was so “lucky”.) It doesn’t necessarily show loyalty to the Church especially since in this day many poor parents have found that sending their children to college means sending them to lose their faith and even many of the seminaries have taught more of a “warm and fuzzy” approach than loyalty to Rome. (example: Fr. McBrien of Notre Dame fame, and other dissenters.)

The request of prayer is quite necessary, but remember, God works through all of His children–not just through those who have high degrees or were highly educated in the last 30 years or so.

 

[benedictgal]

To only want “college degree-d” people (instead of people who are loyal to the Pope and the Church and have taken it upon themselves to study the Vatican II documents and the more recent Church documents concerning the liturgy) seems a bit short sighted, IMO.

As one long time (22+ years) CCD teacher pointed out to me when I didn’t think that I, as a layperson (who does not have a bunch of letters after my name) felt that I really had no business contributing to the defense of the Church, “the Apostles, the Saints, and the martyrs didn’t have high degrees, and it sure didn’t stop them,” Come to think of it, what does the high degree after the name mostly show? Why that the parents had great hopes for their child and were able to generously “foot-the-bill” for at least a major part of their child’s education. (And not everyone was so “lucky”.) It doesn’t necessarily show loyalty to the Church especially since in this day many poor parents have found that sending their children to college means sending them to lose their faith and even many of the seminaries have taught more of a “warm and fuzzy” approach than loyalty to Rome. (example: Fr. McBrien of Notre Dame fame, and other dissenters.)

The request of prayer is quite necessary, but remember, God works through all of His children–not just through those who have high degrees or were highly educated in the last 30 years or so.

I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve had to work with priests who have doctorates in liturgy and, the sad truth is that thety are the first ones to take libierties wiht the Mass that do not pertain to them. Often, one of them delegated all of the work for me to do, including planning a liturgy for the priests’ retreat.

This same priest and I clashed because he did wholesale substitutions with the penitential rite and the Gloria since one of the Sunday Masses was the “Chlidren’s Mass” even though about 20 kids attended in a church full of adults. The Penitential Rite was substituted for a cheesy song called “O God, We are Your Children” and he would walk up and down the aisle, singing the song and thrusting the mike to some poor kid who looked confused. This same priest would always brag about concelebrating with Pope John Paul II and even had pictures of himself and the Pope in the vestibule.

It reminded me of what Jesus told the Jews, that even God could raise children of Abraham from the stones. What he was was saying was the being a descendant of Abraham doesn’t mean anything if you aren’t going to keep the commandments. I use this quote because concelebrating with Pope John Paul II doesn’t give any priest the license to do with the Mass what he pleases.

I wouldn’t lump all of the PhDs together. After all, Pope Benedict XVI holds a doctorate ni theology.

 

[AMDGtoo]

This plea is actually a bit selfish, to be honest, because I’ve written some things I would have liked to retain access to in the past couple days, but those threads have been removed.

No, the plea is not entirely selfish. I know that I was planning to print out some of those things out–there was a wealth of knowledge from different documents and all, Unfortunately I was called away, and when I returned, I could never find the thread again to do that.

 

[PrayforMallory]

We need a Tridentine Mass in every parish. We don’t have to suppress the Novus Ordo. Put a Tridentine Mass in every parish and the OF will start to be celebrated according to the GIRM.

It will also push the heterodox into open schism, which is going to happen anyway, unless we start ordaining women and marrying homosexuals. Better now than later, in my opinion.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

My question is simple: how can this collapse of the liturgy be reversed?

I’d give my opinion but this thread would have to be moved to the Traditional Catholicism forum

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Personally,

I think the Pope’s placement of the Crucifix at the center of the altar is a very wise and subtle sign- a very smart compromise between those who prefer the old way of the priest facing with the people and those who prefer the priest turned around to us.

It essentially re-establishes the orientation of the Mass in a very basic, but effective way: it is not primarily “the people” before the priest, but the Lord. It is not primarily a congregation before him- but the Cross, which the whole People of God are gathered around in worship.

I think this sign, if implemented everywhere, will give us enormous assistance in drawing the Liturgy back to the reverence appropriate to its celebration. It will set the basic tone of the Mass, quite clearly distinguishing that this is not a “service of the People of God”, but rather the Holy Sacrifice offered to the Lord, the re-presentation of Calvary and the event that makes us contemporary with Christ’s act of worship to the Father on the Cross- joining us with the prayer of the Son to the Father.

Again…

With this symbol, the offering is once again directed towards the Lord as offered by the hands of the priest. He doesn’t look to the congregation, but just slightly upwards to the Crucifix before him in an acknowledgment that this is “through him, with him and in him” and that, in the Mass, we really do stand before God, before something both greater and external to us.

I am struck by the potency of this small gesture of the Holy Father. I pray that parishes everywhere will restore the Crucifix to the center of their altars and thus, re-discover what is truly central to the Mass.

 

[EasterJoy]

Cardinal Ratzinger, now our Holy Father, wrote in 1998 “I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy”. So the pope sees the collapse of the liturgy as a fact.

My question is simple: how can this collapse of the liturgy be reversed?

On the episcopal level, first of all. If the bishops don’t sign on to do the on-going work of convincing and encouraging their priests about the hows and whys of a reverent liturgy, if they don’t listen to what their priests have to say in reply, then I don’t think that pressure from the laity will have a positive effect. This is something that requires fraternal correction coming from within the clergy.

If a bishop is making these efforts, though, then I think that respectful and diplomatic feedback from the laity about problem areas can have a very positive effect in preventing the occasional lapse, laxity, or misunderstanding. If the priests feel like they’re being policed and tattled on or if they feel everyone in the Church has a say except the pastors, that no one feels a need to listen to what they think, though, then the heels are going to dig in. That’s my take on it.

 

[EasterJoy]

We need a Tridentine Mass in every parish. We don’t have to suppress the Novus Ordo. Put a Tridentine Mass in every parish and the OF will start to be celebrated according to the GIRM.

With all due respect, I think that if you force a priest who will not observe the rubrics of the NO to celebrate the EF, particularly if his parish is enamored with his alterations of the NO and nobody, but nobody, knows or wants to know any Latin, you’re not going to find that he magically feels a need to follow the rubrics of the EF, either. You will have parallel innovations in the EF in a heartbeat.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Dai_Yoshida]

I’m sorry, what is the purpose of a “liturgist”?

I’ve never met one, heard of one, or belonged to a parish that has one.

The pastor is in charge of the liturgy. To delegate this seems odd. For a lay person to have control of the liturgy seems absurd.

Why, anyway, would a priest need help from a “liturgist”? It’s all in the Missal.

One more big plus for the EF. No options, no need for “liturgists”.

God Bless

I agree.

I attended Mass at a parish in Arkansas with a huge campus and a full time degreed liturgist.

I don’t think I have seen more abuses in a single parish, before or since.

In the “Adoration Chapel” the body of our Lord was sitting in a crystal candy dish.

During Mass, the blood of our Lord was being passed around by an army of “Eucharistic ministers” in cheap wine glasses like a cocktail party.

The day happened to be Vocation Sunday. The Pastor said, “Marriage is a vocation.” Then he sat down and we were treated to an elderly couple telling us what a wonderful marriage they had.

We don’t need liturgists. We need traditional Pastors with spines.

 

[Rickwood]

As long as you have the vernacular in the Mass, I don’t think this is possible. Might as well deal with all of them.

Why would a liturgical committee be required in this instance and not in others?

 

[Rickwood]

Hi,

We will have the Mass celebrated as the celebrant and/or Pastor prefers. (or allows) I have seen this mentioned in regard to other irregularities, and I believe this is it.

If the Pastor wants more attention to the rubrics and instructions in the GIRM, this will happen. If he is more liberal, nothing will change, unless the congregation pressures him. (And maybe not even then) It is best if a number of people address any irregularities. It is easy to ignore 1 or 2.

Complaining to the Bishop about little irregularities will not accomplish much, and will hurt you effectiveness if there is a serious problem. And all the knowledge in the world will do no good, if it is not what the Pastor wishes.

Lux

If the pastor wants to follow the rules, if he has the backing of his bishop and if he has the resolve, I agree it will happen. It might take time, but it will happen. It has nothing to do with being “liberal” or conservative for that matter.

I don’t think “congregation pressure” is very effective unless the abuses are truly abuses – serious ones at that.

 

[Rickwood]

To only want “college degree-d” people (instead of people who are loyal to the Pope and the Church and have taken it upon themselves to study the Vatican II documents and the more recent Church documents concerning the liturgy) seems a bit short sighted, IMO.

For a position as critical as liturgist, I would always prefer a cleric. Next in line would be a professional liturgist. I have seen far too many poorly-prepared people who “have taken it upon themselves to study the Vatican II documents and the more recent Church documents concerning the liturgy” and have caused nothing but trouble because their knowledge is so shallow.

As one long time (22+ years) CCD teacher pointed out to me when I didn’t think that I, as a layperson (who does not have a bunch of letters after my name) felt that I really had no business contributing to the defense of the Church, “the Apostles, the Saints, and the martyrs didn’t have high degrees, and it sure didn’t stop them,” Come to think of it, what does the high degree after the name mostly show? Why that the parents had great hopes for their child and were able to generously “foot-the-bill” for at least a major part of their child’s education. (And not everyone was so “lucky”.) It doesn’t necessarily show loyalty to the Church especially since in this day many poor parents have found that sending their children to college means sending them to lose their faith and even many of the seminaries have taught more of a “warm and fuzzy” approach than loyalty to Rome. (example: Fr. McBrien of Notre Dame fame, and other dissenters.)

Equating Notre Dame and the Holy Cross Fathers to Fr. McBrien is ignorant.

The request of prayer is quite necessary, but remember, God works through all of His children–not just through those who have high degrees or were highly educated in the last 30 years or so.

Being a liturgist requires more than printing out Church documents from the EWTN website and attending “workshops.”

 

[Rickwood]

We need a Tridentine Mass in every parish. We don’t have to suppress the Novus Ordo. Put a Tridentine Mass in every parish and the OF will start to be celebrated according to the GIRM.

It will also push the heterodox into open schism, which is going to happen anyway, unless we start ordaining women and marrying homosexuals. Better now than later, in my opinion.

Not at my parish. When we have had them we get about 20-30 attendees – and they are the very sort (angry/bitter) that I have no desire being around.

 

[Rickwood]

Personally,

I think the Pope’s placement of the Crucifix at the center of the altar is a very wise and subtle sign- a very smart compromise between those who prefer the old way of the priest facing with the people and those who prefer the priest turned around to us.

It essentially re-establishes the orientation of the Mass in a very basic, but effective way: it is not primarily “the people” before the priest, but the Lord. It is not primarily a congregation before him- but the Cross, which the whole People of God are gathered around in worship.

I think this sign, if implemented everywhere, will give us enormous assistance in drawing the Liturgy back to the reverence appropriate to its celebration. It will set the basic tone of the Mass, quite clearly distinguishing that this is not a “service of the People of God”, but rather the Holy Sacrifice offered to the Lord, the re-presentation of Calvary and the event that makes us contemporary with Christ’s act of worship to the Father on the Cross- joining us with the prayer of the Son to the Father.

Again…

With this symbol, the offering is once again directed towards the Lord as offered by the hands of the priest. He doesn’t look to the congregation, but just slightly upwards to the Crucifix before him in an acknowledgment that this is “through him, with him and in him” and that, in the Mass, we really do stand before God, before something both greater and external to us.

I am struck by the potency of this small gesture of the Holy Father. I pray that parishes everywhere will restore the Crucifix to the center of their altars and thus, re-discover what is truly central to the Mass.

I think it’s fine, but it causes a problem in many cases. Most Catholic churches have a large crucifix stuck to the wall right behind the altar. Only one crucifix is supposed to be visible in the sanctuary. To put one on the altar would mean removing the one from the wall which can be a big deal. This also goes against the Pope’s position of not tearing-up sanctuaries once again, so it would be nice to have permission to have at least two crucifixes in the sanctuary, near the altar.

 

[Rickwood]

I agree.

I attended Mass at a parish in Arkansas with a huge campus and a full time degreed liturgist.

I don’t think I have seen more abuses in a single parish, before or since.

In the “Adoration Chapel” the body of our Lord was sitting in a crystal candy dish.

During Mass, the blood of our Lord was being passed around by an army of “Eucharistic ministers” in cheap wine glasses like a cocktail party.

The day happened to be Vocation Sunday. The Pastor said, “Marriage is a vocation.” Then he sat down and we were treated to an elderly couple telling us what a wonderful marriage they had.

We don’t need liturgists. We need traditional Pastors with spines.

I would suggest your sample size in insufficient to make a universal condemnation.

I too would ALWAYS prefer a cleric in charge of the liturgy. This is not always the case. When it has to be a layperson I would MUCH prefer a degreed layperson than someone who takes their formation from their well thumbed print-outs of GIRM, RS and selected TAN re-prints.

 

[Dauphin]

Not at my parish. When we have had them we get about 20-30 attendees – and they are the very sort (angry/bitter) that I have no desire being around.

That’s much more than the 3 necessary for a stable group. They have the right to the TLM.

 

[Dai_Yoshida]

I would suggest your sample size in insufficient to make a universal condemnation.

I too would ALWAYS prefer a cleric in charge of the liturgy. This is not always the case. When it has to be a layperson I would MUCH prefer a degreed layperson than someone who takes their formation from their well thumbed print-outs of GIRM, RS and selected TAN re-prints.

I only mentioned that parish as an example. I’m from Pasadena, CA in the LA archdiocese. I’ve seen enough abuses in the hands of “professionals”.

I’m always reminded of the film, “Lily of the Field” with Mass in the middle of the dessert in back of a pie truck.

I’d rather have that than some of the "liturgist’'s Masses I’ve seen.

 

[bilop]

I would suggest your sample size in insufficient to make a universal condemnation.

I too would ALWAYS prefer a cleric in charge of the liturgy. This is not always the case. When it has to be a layperson I would MUCH prefer a degreed layperson than someone who takes their formation from their well thumbed print-outs of GIRM, RS and selected TAN re-prints.

I still don’t understand what you mean.

No one is “in charge of the liturgy” except the Magisterium.

The priest is to say the Mass as written. Why would you ever meed more the the Missal to say Mass?

Why on earth do we need “liturgists”?

I know many priests successfully functioning w/o any “liturgist” to “help” them.

God Bless