How can the Collapse of the Liturgy be reversed?

[Rickwood]

There are those liturgical elitists who despise the fact that the GIRM is avail to John and Mary Catholic for review. Such elitists want zombies in the pew who just do what they say.

Certainly they (liturgists who are elitist) feel a sense of threat to their “power” and “status” when someone starts infringing on their personal “turf”.

Whats worse Liturgical Auditors or Liturgical Elitists?

The “liturgical elitists” I come typically have no background at all in liturgy or theology. Often times they have no degree and all and it shows, most commonly with an inability to think in a critical manner.

There is a reason why the Church created the university system hundreds and hundreds of years ago and not simply vocational schools – although She has created her share of those as well. That reason is lost on a great many.

You question about what is worse – “Liturgical Auditors or Liturgical Elitists” is tough to answer because they are typically one in the same around here.

 

[Rickwood]

Actually, he is Peter. Tu es Petrus applies to every Pope who is the successor of the Prince of the Apostles. In fact, it was the term used in the commentary when the Holy Father visited the Patriarch of Constantinople. “Peter has visited his brother, Andrew.”

No way.

All Popes are the Vicars of Jesus Christ here on Earth. Semantics aside they are not “Peter.”

You justification was just a very kind comment by the Ecumenical Patriarch. It holds absolutely no authority – even if it would have been said by the Pope and not the Ecumenical Patriarch.

 

[maggiemay2u]

The diocesan director of worship also has the responsibilitise of a pastor. There is double duty involved. We are a young diocese with a lot of rough edges. The bishop sent me because he trusted me to get the information, ask the questions and get results.

In fact, there were certain matters where a parish from the outlying area was asking for guidance on the proper lectionary to use for the Spanish Masses in ther town and the director passed the phone on to me. He was supposed to know which version was approved for use in the United States, but he had me answer the question, and, he has an STD in Liturgy from a Roman university.

You need not take an insulting tone in this thread and in many others. This is not helpful to a constructive discussion on anything, especiallyi the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Just as I have seen degreed liturgists do their best to conform to Rome, I have also seen some at the level of a doctorate claim that they know better and do their own thing. And, both versions have been priests.

Well said! When Christ spoke of scandal in the Church, I don’t think He was omitting the trials of today. As you mention, many liturgists remain humble servants; faithful followers of Christ. Others seem determined to demonstrate their superior knowledge and ability to interpret the everything from GRIM to gospel.

In too many cases, we see the misuse of positions to push personal agendas or conceal that which is scandalous.

 

[Joannm]

I think actually being educated at some depth in the liturgy would prevent that sort of thing and again, a cleric would be the optimal choice.

I think a lot of the “bad liturgy” today is a product of people who just really don’t care.

I know quite a few lay liturgy directors, those who have degrees and those who do not. I would say in all cases those who have degrees in liturgy have less inovations, better music and the priests in those parishes celebrate a more reverent mass. I know a few parishes with “liturgists” who took a few workshops and read a few documents and books who always look for inovations to make the liturgy “come alive” and be more relevant to the people.

Those who have studied liturgy (lay and ordained), know the history, the theology, the spirituality, the anthropology, and know what good liturgy is comprised of and why we do what we do at Mass. A good liturgy director is also a good pastoral minister. They know how to work well with others, to explain things beyond “becuase it is in the rubrics” or “because Rome says so.”
A good liturgy director knows that the real “liturgist” is “Mrs. Murphy” and works to capacitate her to not only celebrate the liturgy but to live leitourgia and to become the Body of Christ.

 

[Cat]

I hope this doesn’t come across as ignorant-sounding. I’m just starting at the “beginning.”

bilop, you seem distrustful of “liturgists” or “liturgical directors.” Well, if you’ve had a bad experience, that’s understandable.

To me, as a pianist, the liturgical director is the person who plans the “practicals” of the Mass and makes sure that they actually happen during Mass.

I don’t know what the “practicals” are called in “Old Catholic language,” but to me, it means which songs/hymns/Psalm/chant/meditation/;prelude/Kyrie/etc., etc. will be done and what page they are on in the hymnals and who will actually play them and sing them.

One of the liturgical directors that I work with has this all planned a year in advance. Another one plans it week by week. (Kind of scary–I prefer the advancer planner!)

But it’s not just a question of planning, it’s doing all the “nuts and bolts”–the practical stuff. Mailing or emailing the list of hymns/whatever out to the musicians, cantors, etc. Finding and scheduling the cantors/choirs/musicians, etc., and making sure that every Mass is covered and no poor pianist discovers five minutes before the Mass that she doesn’t have a cantor (Aieee! It happens to me–yikes!). Getting copies of the music to the cantors/choirs/musicians if it is something not in the hymnal. Arranging practices if the music is something out of the ordinary (e.g., a Mozart piece). Working with the paid musicians to negotiate an appropriate salary. Hiring extra musicians for special Masses (e.g., the Easter Vigil). Sending out the notices to the parents about the Christmas Eve “Children’s Mass” with the Christmas Pagaent, and then either directing the Children’s Pageant, or finding some poor sap–I mean–some willing person!–who will direct the pageant. Making sure that the piano is in tune, and that the pipes on the organ are cleaned on a regular basis, or making sure that the music library isn’t being devoured by rodents or moths or silverfish.

On top of all this, the liturgical director must meet with Father to make sure that everything they are “planning” is suitable and acceptable for the Masses. In some parishes, I know that Father wants to be closely involved with planning the music. In other parishes, Father is happy to turn most of the work over to the liturgical director. That’s his right.

Someone has to do all this “grunt work,” or the Mass will have no music–no Haugen and no Gregory! Neither of these happens without “human” work.

And unless I am ignorant, that’s what the liturgical director does–the “grunt work.”

I personally think that there is no reason for Father to do all this grunt work on top of the spiritual work that he is responsible for. If he wants to do this work, fine, wonderful! (I know at least one priest who does do this work–he is a very talented musician, plays the piano, sings, and leads the choir!).

But I think that many priests are grateful to have a willing servant or “liturgical director” to take over all this “grunt work” and do the “practicals” of the liturgy. (“Catholische practicuum?!”)

Does this make sense to everyone? Again, forgive me for starting with basics, but I think that’s one of the things that can be done to reverse the Collapse of the Liturgy–start at the beginning.

 

[Rickwood]

I know quite a few lay liturgy directors, those who have degrees and those who do not. I would say in all cases those who have degrees in liturgy have less inovations, better music and the priests in those parishes celebrate a more reverent mass. I know a few parishes with “liturgists” who took a few workshops and read a few documents and books who always look for innovations to make the liturgy “come alive” and be more relevant to the people.

Those who have studied liturgy (lay and ordained), know the history, the theology, the spirituality, the anthropology, and know what good liturgy is comprised of and why we do what we do at Mass. A good liturgy director is also a good pastoral minister. They know how to work well with others, to explain things beyond “becuase it is in the rubrics” or “because Rome says so.”
A good liturgy director knows that the real “liturgist” is “Mrs. Murphy” and works to capacitate her to not only celebrate the liturgy but to live leitourgia and to become the Body of Christ.

That’s so very true. There is so much more than quoting paragraph #xyz from the GIRM or RS than meets the eyes of some. The moniker “because Rome says so” is a serious turn-off. Far better to have the background to actually explain the Church’s position.

You also bring up a very important point. That added breadth and depth of understanding does help them when it comes to preparing a Mass for a given community without resorting to abuses or irregularities. What really resonates at my parish on Sunday morning at 6 am does not resonate quite as well as 6 pm, some 7 Masses later.

 

[Joannm]

Yes, the liturgy director does all the grunt work, but also is responsible to training and education of not only the liturgical ministers but the assembly as well. Their work goes beyond supervising the music. Most of the directors I know also teach courses in their parishes and in others. They write articles for their bulletins, answer parishioners questions, deal with those who complain about what they perceive as abuses or those who complain that the mass in not modern enough. They write the petitions, they direct the priests when special rites are being celebrated.

Liturgy directors work a 70+ hour week during Christmas and Easter. In many cases, at least in our diocese, if the Triduum liturgies are beautifully done, thank the liturgy director. But most people thank the priests, who for the most part only show up to preside. But the director’s job is to make the priest’s job easier, to give him time to prepare his homilies, to pray, and to review what he needs to do, usually by going over a ceremonial that the liturgy director prepared. The director is happy to be in the shadows, for when the liturgy begins, the director’s job ends…except to be available to deal with any major mishaps that may occur that are unknown and unseen by the assembly.

The directors I know do not look for accolades, they do their job because they love the liturgy. They are not liturgy police or auditors, but they truly seek to allow other to do liturgy well.

The old joke about the difference between a litugist and a terrorist is not true. The liturgy director is a great negotiator, often serving as the arbitrator between an irate parishioner and a pastor just trying to do his best. They need to know not only the rubrics and the documents but the everything that led to the rubrics and documents, and they need to be people of prayer, for liturgy is above all prayer. A good liturgy director brings people together and serves God, not the rubrics.

Off my soapbox now.

 

[Cat]

Yes, the liturgy director does all the grunt work, but also is responsible to training and education of not only the liturgical ministers but the assembly as well. Their work goes beyond supervising the music. Most of the directors I know also teach courses in their parishes and in others. They write articles for their bulletins, answer parishioners questions, deal with those who complain about what they perceive as abuses or those who complain that the mass in not modern enough. They write the petitions, they direct the priests when special rites are being celebrated.

Liturgy directors work a 70+ hour week during Christmas and Easter. In many cases, at least in our diocese, if the Triduum liturgies are beautifully done, thank the liturgy director. But most people thank the priests, who for the most part only show up to preside. But the director’s job is to make the priest’s job easier, to give him time to prepare his homilies, to pray, and to review what he needs to do, usually by going over a ceremonial that the liturgy director prepared. The director is happy to be in the shadows, for when the liturgy begins, the director’s job ends…except to be available to deal with any major mishaps that may occur that are unknown and unseen by the assembly.

The directors I know do not look for accolades, they do their job because they love the liturgy. They are not liturgy police or auditors, but they truly seek to allow other to do liturgy well.

The old joke about the difference between a litugist and a terrorist is not true. The liturgy director is a great negotiator, often serving as the arbitrator between an irate parishioner and a pastor just trying to do his best. They need to know not only the rubrics and the documents but the everything that led to the rubrics and documents, and they need to be people of prayer, for liturgy is above all prayer. A good liturgy director brings people together and serves God, not the rubrics.

Off my soapbox now.

Thank you for this post. This is exactly what I was trying to get across to bilop–that the music and liturgy doesn’t just happen, but is planned and practiced and trained for and implemented and this work takes many hours, and most priests don’t have many hours!

 

[benedictgal]

I know quite a few lay liturgy directors, those who have degrees and those who do not. I would say in all cases those who have degrees in liturgy have less inovations, better music and the priests in those parishes celebrate a more reverent mass. I know a few parishes with “liturgists” who took a few workshops and read a few documents and books who always look for inovations to make the liturgy “come alive” and be more relevant to the people.

Those who have studied liturgy (lay and ordained), know the history, the theology, the spirituality, the anthropology, and know what good liturgy is comprised of and why we do what we do at Mass. A good liturgy director is also a good pastoral minister. They know how to work well with others, to explain things beyond “becuase it is in the rubrics” or “because Rome says so.”
A good liturgy director knows that the real “liturgist” is “Mrs. Murphy” and works to capacitate her to not only celebrate the liturgy but to live leitourgia and to become the Body of Christ.

I would take exception to the first part of your statement. As I have stated earlier, I do not have a degree in liturgy, but, it doesn’t take someone with a doctorate to know what is right and what is wrong.

My main thrust has always been (and it remains so) to maintain fidelity to what the Holy See requires. We are called to receive and not to be creative. Not in any of the liturgies that I have planned, from diaconate ordinations to the various Red, White and Blue (law enforcement) have I ever inserted idiosyncracies or personal innovations. In fact, in collaboration with my rector, we worked to nip these things in the bud. For example, at the White Mass, the director of pastoral services for one of the hospitals (who has a masters in theology) wanted to have a model of a brain, a stethescope and the medical symbol carried up along with the bread and wine. We nixed that idea right away and told him that this was not appropriate. We told him to leave that for the reception.

When I was asked to plan to the bishop’s first Mass at his Cathedral, where he was to take possession of it, my rector and I researched what this entailed. We went right down to the nitty gritty. The rector was dressed in cassock and surplice, greeted the bishop with holy water and a crucifix. The entrance hymn was in Latin. We had the local philharmonic chorale serve as the choir. The rest of the music was solid, sacred and quite pontifical, with some selections in English, some in Spanish and others in Latin. It was according to what the Church requires.

I have always acted in tandem with the priest with whom I was assigned to work. My experience drafting bills in the Texas House prepared me for the research needed to plan liturgies in accordance with the Church’s mandates. The only creativity allowed revolves around the choice of readings and the use of the texts from the Roman Missal, and whatever options are provided to us by the Holy See.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, the liturgy director does all the grunt work, but also is responsible to training and education of not only the liturgical ministers but the assembly as well. Their work goes beyond supervising the music. Most of the directors I know also teach courses in their parishes and in others. They write articles for their bulletins, answer parishioners questions, deal with those who complain about what they perceive as abuses or those who complain that the mass in not modern enough. They write the petitions, they direct the priests when special rites are being celebrated.

Liturgy directors work a 70+ hour week during Christmas and Easter. In many cases, at least in our diocese, if the Triduum liturgies are beautifully done, thank the liturgy director. But most people thank the priests, who for the most part only show up to preside. But the director’s job is to make the priest’s job easier, to give him time to prepare his homilies, to pray, and to review what he needs to do, usually by going over a ceremonial that the liturgy director prepared. The director is happy to be in the shadows, for when the liturgy begins, the director’s job ends…except to be available to deal with any major mishaps that may occur that are unknown and unseen by the assembly.

The directors I know do not look for accolades, they do their job because they love the liturgy. They are not liturgy police or auditors, but they truly seek to allow other to do liturgy well.

The old joke about the difference between a litugist and a terrorist is not true. The liturgy director is a great negotiator, often serving as the arbitrator between an irate parishioner and a pastor just trying to do his best. They need to know not only the rubrics and the documents but the everything that led to the rubrics and documents, and they need to be people of prayer, for liturgy is above all prayer. A good liturgy director brings people together and serves God, not the rubrics.

Off my soapbox now.

Some of also do not get paid. I’ve had to put in many hours after my regular job to ensure that things are done right. Often this entails choosing the music, making arrangments to secure the choir, cantor and organist. Preparing the worship aids has been a challenge. Howvever, after getting my paws on the ones used for the Papal Masses, this has become a much easier job. I follow the same layout (cover to cover) including placing an icon on the front cover and the diocesan coat of arms in the back. Furthermore, for special liturgies, I also select the readings, one in English and one in Spanish.

Then, there is also the matter of appropriate art and environment. Sometimes, this would entail working with a florist; other times, this would involve having the rector, wedding coordinator, some volunteers and me work on the arrangments. This was especially true for the Easter Vigil and Christmas.

I have also had to work with the Candidates and the Elect in order to get everyone ready. Yes, we’ve even had to review dress codes for some of them. One time, I had to bring a jacket from home to cover up one of the catechumens.

I’ve taken vacation time during Holy Week and Christmas to work with my pastor on getting everything ready for these important times in the liturgical year. I don’t mind doing this. I enjoy what I do.

There are also brides and quinceneras (actually, the mothers of same) that must be addressed. While the wedding coordinator took care of the brides, I’ve had to do the coordinating for the convalidations and the Quince Anos. These can be very difficult, even after the parties have been given the rules of the church.

The bottom line is that those of us who volunteer our time do so because we love the Church. We love serving Christ in this capacity. We also want to make sure that things are done in the manner that the Church prescribes.

Unfortunately, there are some, degreed and not degreed, who choose to insert their own idiosyncracies into the Mass and get creative. This has a negative effect because it confuses the faithful and it leads to further erosion of the liturgy. The Mass is not anyone’s personal property. It belongs to the Church. She safeguards it. That is why Rome issues the documents that she does.

 

[benedictgal]

No way.

All Popes are the Vicars of Jesus Christ here on Earth. Semantics aside they are not “Peter.”

You justification was just a very kind comment by the Ecumenical Patriarch. It holds absolutely no authority – even if it would have been said by the Pope and not the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Have you not heard the saying, “Where there is Peter, there is the Church?” Peter is the Pope. For centuries, this has always been the case. The ministry of the Pope is called the Petrine ministry for a reason. It is sad that people have to question this nowadays.

During one of the early councils of the Church, when the bishops were literally having slugfests regarding the divinity of Christ (or some other controversial matter, I don’t remember), the reigning pope at the time sent his legate. Through his legate, he made the definitive declaration. One of the bishops said, “Peter has spoken.” That quashed the debate, ending the smackdown.

The voice of Peter continues to resound through the centuries. Peter now tells us that the liturgy is in a state of collapse. He is doing his part to steer the barque in the right direction. We would do well, all of us, to follow his lead. Peter has spoken, clearly and loudly.

 

[buffalo]

Ottaviani Intervention

 

[japhy]

I don’t know what the “practicals” are called in “Old Catholic language,” but to me, it means which songs / hymns / Psalm / chant / meditation / prelude / Kyrie / etc., etc. will be done and what page they are on in the hymnals and who will actually play them and sing them.

Not to be a contrary voice, but the ideal is simply to sing what’s Proper and Ordinary for that day! (This would require, of course, a choir that can sing Latin, and a congregation that has been taught to chant the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin… the way it should be.)

For example, we’re approaching the 19th Sunday in Ordinary Time, year A. According to the Graduale Romanum, that means:

The introit (entrance antiphon and psalm) is Ps. 73:20,19,22,23,1. The antiphon is Respice, Domine, in testamentum tuum, et animas pauperum tuorum ne derelinquas in finem : exsurge Domine, et iudica causam tuam : et ne obliviscaris voces quaerentium te. The Psalm verse is Ut quid Deus repulisti in finem : iratus est furor tuus super oves pascuae tuae? In English, that’s: “Have regard, Lord, to thy covenant, and forget not to the end the souls of thy poor : Arise, O God, judge thy own cause : and do not forget the voices that seek for You.” and “O God, why hast thou cast us off unto the end: why is thy wrath enkindled against the sheep of thy pasture?”

Because we’re in Ordinary Time, we use Missa Orbis Factor (XI), for Sundays throughout the year. The Graduale also recommends Stelliferi conditor orbis (Mass XIII) and Iesu Redemptor (Mass XIV) as alternate settings for Ordinary Time.

For the Gradual (a chanted replacement for the Responsorial Psalm, but using the same Psalm) we use Psalm 84:8,2. The antiphon is Ostende nobis, Domine, misericordiam tuam : et salutare tuum da nobis. The Psalm verse is Benedixisti, Domine, terram tuam : avertisti captivitatem Iacob. Those are “Show us, O Lord, thy mercy : and grant us thy salvation” and “Lord, thou hast blessed thy land : thou hast turned away the captivity of Jacob.” That first one, Ps. 84:8, is actually used in one the Penitential Rite, Form B!

For the Alleluia verse, we hear Psalm 89:1: Domine, refugium factus es nobis a generatione et progenie. In English, that’s “Lord, thou hast been our refuge from generation to generation.”

The Offertory antiphon is Psalm 30:15,16. In Latin, In te speravi, Domine : dixi : Tu es Deus meus, in manibus tuis tempora mea. In English: “I have put my trust in thee, O Lord : I said : Thou art my God, my times are in Your hands.”

The Communion chant takes its antiphon from John 6:52; this is sung with Psalm 110:1,2,3,4,5,6-7a,7b-8ab,9ab,9c-10a,10bc. (Each number N or range N-M is alternated with the antiphon, I believe.) The antiphon is Panis, quem ego dedero, caro mea est pro saeculi vita. (“The bread, which I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world.”) The psalm verses… well, you can look up Psalm 110 (that’s Psalm 111 for most English Bibles) for yourself. But let me share a key verse (in English)… “He hath given food to them that fear him. He will be mindful for ever of his covenant.”

Have you sensed a theme in these chants?

“Have regard, Lord, to thy covenant, and forget not to the end the souls of thy poor : Arise, O God, judge thy own cause : and do not forget the voices that seek for You. / O God, why hast thou cast us off unto the end: why is thy wrath enkindled against the sheep of thy pasture?”

“Show us, O Lord, thy mercy : and grant us thy salvation. / Lord, thou hast blessed thy land : thou hast turned away the captivity of Jacob.”

“Lord, thou hast been our refuge from generation to generation.”

“I have put my trust in thee, O Lord : I said : Thou art my God, my times are in Your hands.”

“The bread, which I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world. / He hath given food to them that fear him. He will be mindful for ever of his covenant.”

And, to top it all off… what are the readings for this Sunday? 1 Kings 19, where Elijah finds the presence (and voice) of God not in the wind, the earthquake, nor the fire, but in a still small voice. Romans 9, where Paul talks about how to his kinsfolk, the Israelites, are “the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Christ”. And in Matthew 14, just after the feeding of the multitude with loaves and fishes, which was a prefiguring of the Eucharist, Jesus comes to his apostles who are in a boat being tossed by waves in the night, and Jesus calms the waves and the wind.

Peter needed to learn to put his trust in Jesus, the Lord. We need to trust in his mercy for our salvation. He is our refuge; it is he who frees us; he will hear us. We need to be faithful to the New Covenant, as God is faithful to it for ever and ever; otherwise, we will find ourselves cast off. But if we are faithful, God Himself will provide food for us… and, at Communion, we hear Jesus’s words about the “bread” we are eating, which is really his flesh… and this, in close connection to the miracle of the fishes and loaves that had just occurred.

I’ve shown you Year A’s selections. In Year B, the gradual psalm is the same as the introit psalm, Psalm 73:20-19 as the antiphon and Psalm 73:22-23 for the verse. In year C, it’s Psalm 32:12 for the antiphon and Psalm 32:6 for the verse; these are “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord : the people whom he hath chosen for his inheritance.” and “By the word of the Lord the heavens were established; and all the power of them by the spirit of his mouth.” The Communion chant is the same for Year B as it is for Year A; in Year C, the antiphon is Matthew 24:46-47, “Blessed is that servant, whom when his lord shall come he shall find vigilant. Amen I say to you, he shall place him over all his goods” with verses taken from Psalm 33 (34 in English Bibles), which has verses such as “This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him: and saved him out of all his troubles” and “The Lord will redeem the souls of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall offend”.

As you can see, the theme pretty much remains the same in all three years.

So, no liturgist required! No one needs to “put together” the Mass, choosing the right hymns… the Church has already provided for us! If only we would accept what She so graciously offers! This coming Sunday is “Respice Domine” Sunday; every 19th Sunday in Ordinary Time is “Respice Domine” Sunday, when we should be praying “Lord, remember your covenant!” That’s what the Church should be praying in its chants on this day.

And, before you ask, I didn’t know any of this until a couple months ago. It was a big secret. Nobody ever told it to me.

Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!

 

[japhy]

Mailing or emailing the list of hymns/whatever out to the musicians, cantors, etc. Finding and scheduling the cantors / choirs / musicians, etc., and making sure that every Mass is covered and no poor pianist discovers five minutes before the Mass that she doesn’t have a cantor. Getting copies of the music to the cantors/choirs/musicians if it is something not in the hymnal. Arranging practices if the music is something out of the ordinary (e.g., a Mozart piece). Working with the paid musicians to negotiate an appropriate salary. Hiring extra musicians for special Masses (e.g., the Easter Vigil). …

Some of what you’re describing sounds like the job of a choir director or music director or “music minister”. Not that music isn’t liturgy, I’m just saying that these are specifically music-oriented tasks.

Other liturgical tasks are making sure lectors/readers know when they are scheduled, and know what to read; there’s a person in charge of all the readers at my parish who does this. Or making sure EMHCs are present (because we’re a one-priest parish, so EMHCs are sadly necessary all the time); we have a person in charge of EMHCs at my parish. Then there’s making sure the altar servers are there, and know what to do (e.g. how to use the thurible, or if some special rite is happening, etc.); again, we have a person in charge of the altar servers.

On top of all this, we have our pastor. We also have a “liturgy board” which handles complex arrangements like Holy Week, Christmas, and special events. I don’t know exactly what they do, but I would like to serve on that board, or at least be a fly-on-the-wall at some of their meetings. I’m curious if they’re the people responsible for having seven EMHCs scheduled for Holy Thursday Mass when there were six priests present (resulting in five of the priests not distributing Communion).

Now, there’s still stuff left over. Like, making sure people (especially liturgical ministers) make the proper gestures, making sure all the “equipment” is in place (Lectionary, Book of the Gospels, sacred vessels, Sacramentary, etc.), making sure the priest is dressed properly and in the right liturgical color, and (the toughest!) making sure people say what they’re supposed to say. Perhaps that’s the “liturgy nazi”. But it’s an important element of the liturgy… I mean, otherwise, why pretend to follow the book at all?

Does this make sense to everyone? Again, forgive me for starting with basics, but I think that’s one of the things that can be done to reverse the Collapse of the Liturgy–start at the beginning.

If you start at the beginning, stripping away all the frills and extras and add-ons, you have the Graduale Romanum and Missale Romanum: the hymnal of the Mass and the prayers of the Mass. All you need is a person (or small group of people) who understand them!

Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!

 

[Rickwood]

I think you are probably right.

But, it does bring up a question in my mind. Why do people who just don’t care become involved in planning Liturgy in the first place?

Any thoughts on that?

James

Using my own parish I will take a guess. I think the great majority get involved with the liturgy (either planning or as a EMHC, reader, server, etc.) because they want to be seen and recognized.

 

[Rickwood]

And in some cases they want POWER…

 

[bkovacs]

Cardinal Ratzinger, now our Holy Father, wrote in 1998 “I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy”. So the pope sees the collapse of the liturgy as a fact.

My question is simple: how can this collapse of the liturgy be reversed?

Make Bishop Williamson of the SSPX Pope!.

 

[THurifer2]

No way.

All Popes are the Vicars of Jesus Christ here on Earth. Semantics aside they are not “Peter.”

You justification was just a very kind comment by the Ecumenical Patriarch. It holds absolutely no authority – even if it would have been said by the Pope and not the Ecumenical Patriarch.

B16 has the same and equal authority over the Bride of Christ that peter did. DUe to the organic development of doctrine that authority may be more defined today. Whether a guys name is Peter or Bill. All of the popes had the same and equal authority of their office.

Of course Benedictgals realizes that B16 isn’t the same actual person as Pope Peter…she was pointing out that B16 has the same authority (none less) than peter did. After all the Catholic church is considered the Barque of Peter.

 

[japhy]

Using my own parish I will take a guess. I think the great majority get involved with the liturgy (either planning or as a EMHC, reader, server, etc.) because they want to be seen and recognized.

I don’t want to “get involved with the liturgy” to be seen. I’m “seen” enough… I’m a reader and a member of the Parish Pastoral Council, as well as being on the RCIA team and a Bible Study facilitator. I don’t need any more visibility, really. My ego’s overloaded. (add any other smileys that will help denote that comment as a JOKE)

I’d like to be involved with the liturgy so that, as far as possible, we celebrate Mass reverently and properly, avoiding things that the Church forbids or strongly discourages, and including things with the Church highly favors or prefers. This would mean following the rubrics and texts (instead of deviating from them) and incorporating more (eh, who am I kidding, ANY) Latin and chant into the Mass.

Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!

 

[AMDGtoo]

Using my own parish I will take a guess. I think the great majority get involved with the liturgy (either planning or as a EMHC, reader, server, etc.) because they want to be seen and recognized.

But somehow you think that having a more modern education and a bunch of letters after their names (a degree) and some extra money in their pockets (a salary) changes that? Isn’t it just possible that there are some people who willingly work for God, for His Church, for reverence and stand upon the shoulders of giants like the ones who authored the liturgical documents (and so refer to those documents)?