How can the highest act of worship for some Christians be idolatry for other Christians?

[ltwin]

So why doesn’t it say in the future the true worshipers of God will offer no sacrifice or incense?

Once again, I’m not saying that.

What does that practically mean then? What is a spiritual sacrifice?

It means offering your entire life to God, living holy before him. It is the sacrifice of praise, “the fruit of our lips giving thanks unto His name.” It is helping others, “Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world” (James 1:27).

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Exactly. And this is the whole crux of the matter.

Literally anyone can grab a Bible and argue internally bit by bit. You can set aside one group of texts and establish them as your primary reference point. But why? How do we know what our foundational principles are?

The fact is, Christianity wasn’t even set up this way.

Continuity with the apostolic Church surely means something in this discussion, no?

We know the Faith the same way the New Testament church did: through the Scriptures, yes, but as taught by the Apostles and other elders in concert (Acts 15).

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Also, the explicit theology becomes obvious even as early as the 3rd century (with Cyprian, for example). The sacrificial language was clear from the beginning, with Didache, Clement, Ignatius, and so on. But they don’t get into the details about what it means for the Eucharist to be a sacrifice (though it’s not hard to connect the dots, since they taught the Real Presence).

But by the 3rd century, Christian theology is obvious. Why would the Church mess up so early on such a fundamental doctrine?

 

[exnihilo]

It means offering your entire life to God, living holy before him. It is the sacrifice of praise, “the fruit of our lips giving thanks unto His name.” It is helping others, “Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world” (James 1:27).

So doing good works is spiritual sacrifice and true worship?

 

[fhansen]

Of course, people can be taught to believe a lie, or prefer to believe a lie, or believe a truth to be a lie for that matter.

But going by Scripture alone the question of the Real Presence is a crap shoot in any case. With the ancient churches they just practiced and believed that teaching and carried it forward through history. Either their truth is the truth-or we cannot know the truth.

 

[Wannano]

Of course, people can be taught to believe a lie, or prefer to believe a lie, or believe a truth to be a lie for that matter.

But going by Scripture alone the question of the Real Presence is a crap shoot in any case. With the ancient churches they just practiced and believed that teaching and carried it forward through history. Either their truth is the truth-or we cannot know the truth.

Is it impossible for a Doctrinal truth to have new development over time that alters the practice of the doctrine without erasing the truth?

 

[Dorothy]

Yes! We do this in memory of Him, and it is a living memorial where we can enter in!

 

[fhansen]

That would depend entirely on the particular doctrine and how it’s been changed. Development and clarification can be very good things. In the case of the Eucharist the real body and blood have always been discerned as far as I’ve observed. And transubstantiation, for example, does nothing to alter or transform the doctrine…substantially, IMO.

 

[Wannano]

That would depend entirely on the particular doctrine and how it’s been changed. Development and clarification can be very good things. In the case of the Eucharist the real body and blood have always been discerned as far as I’ve observed. And transubstantiation, for example, does nothing to alter or transform the doctrine…substantially, IMO.

I appreciate your your answer any feel I can concur with your viewpoint. However, would you agree that probably if Paul would be plopped present into a Mass now in 2019 that he would likely wonder what in the world is happening?

 

[HopkinsReb]

fhansen:

That would depend entirely on the particular doctrine and how it’s been changed. Development and clarification can be very good things. In the case of the Eucharist the real body and blood have always been discerned as far as I’ve observed. And transubstantiation, for example, does nothing to alter or transform the doctrine…substantially, IMO.

I appreciate your your answer any feel I can concur with your viewpoint. However, would you agree that probably if Paul would be plopped present into a Mass now in 2019 that he would likely wonder what in the world is happening?

Well obviously. He didn’t speak any modern languages.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

fhansen:

That would depend entirely on the particular doctrine and how it’s been changed. Development and clarification can be very good things. In the case of the Eucharist the real body and blood have always been discerned as far as I’ve observed. And transubstantiation, for example, does nothing to alter or transform the doctrine…substantially, IMO.

I appreciate your your answer any feel I can concur with your viewpoint. However, would you agree that probably if Paul would be plopped present into a Mass now in 2019 that he would likely wonder what in the world is happening?

Well obviously. He didn’t speak any modern languages.

Do we have to be trivial?

 

[HopkinsReb]

Do we have to be trivial?

Nope.

Paul would certainly be unused to the grandiosity of modern Catholic churches. I’m certain that things would be in different orders and done in a different manner than he was used to. Certain prayers derived from writings which had not been written during his life or to which he had not been exposed during his ministry would seem odd to him.

But I think he’d know exactly what was going on in the Eucharist. He’d know what was going on in confession, as he certainly understood the power to bind and loose sins. He’d understand what was going on at baptisms. Most of the critical practices of the church would be different in form what what he’d seen, but the same in substance.

 

[MT1926]

However, would you agree that probably if Paul would be plopped present into a Mass now in 2019 that he would likely wonder what in the world is happening?

Well I don’t want to be trivial so let us say he is attending a mass being said in Greek.

That being said I would say there is absolutely no way he would be wondering what in the world is happening.

We need to remember we are talking about not only an OT Biblical Scholar here we are talking about the guy who penned a great majority of the NT. I personally think he would have the same reaction Dr. Scott Hahn had when he hid in the back of a noonday mass, before he converted. He would be amazed and impressed with how biblical the Catholic mass has become. Just like Dr. Hahn (before he was Catholic) he would have been able to follow along and go wow that is Luke, that is from 1 John, there’s Baruch and the Psalms even Revelation is here…

Not sure if you have ever seen this before? It will take a couple of posts so bear with me, but I believe St. Paul being the Bible Scholar we all know he was would see exactly this in the mass…

The Mass in relation to Scripture

INTRODUCTORY RITES

Priest: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. [ . . . baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt28:19)]

People: Amen [Let all the people say Amen! (1 Chronicles 16:36)]

Greeting

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you. [The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you. (2 Cor 13:13)]

People: And also with you.

Penitential Rite

People: I confess to Almighty God, and to you my

brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own

fault. [Therefore, confess your sins to one another and

pray for one another, that you may be healed (James

5:16)]

In my thoughts and in my words, [. . .do not be haughty.

. .wise in your own estimation. . .(Rms 12:16)] [the

tongue. . . exists among our members as a world of

malice, defiling the whole body. . .James 3:6)]

In what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; [So

for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do

it, it is a sin (James 4:17)]

And I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and

saints, and you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me

to the Lord, our God. [Brothers, pray for us too. (1 Thes

5:25)]

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us

our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

[If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and

will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every

wrongdoing. (1 John 1:9)]

People: Amen.

continued…

 

[MT1926]

Priest and People: Lord have mercy. [Let us pray and

beg our Lord to have mercy on us and to grant us

deliverance. (Tobit 8:4)]

Priest and People: Christ have mercy. [. . . grace, mercy

and peace from God the Father and Christ

Jesus our Lord. (1 Tim 1:2)]

Gloria

Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on

earth. [Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace

to those on whom his favor rests. (Luke 2:14)]

Lord God, heavenly King, Almighty God and Father.

[Alleluia! The Lord has established his reign, our God

the almighty! (Rev 19:6)]

We worship you, [Worship God. (Rev 22:9)]

We give you thanks, [. . . giving thanks always and in

everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God

the Father. (Eph 5:20)]

We praise you for your glory. [Amen! Blessing and glory,

wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power and might be to

our God forever and ever. Amen! (Rev 7:12)]

Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, [Grace,

mercy and peace will be with us from God the Father

and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son in truth and

love. (2 John 3)

Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the

world; have mercy on us; [Behold the Lamb of God, who

takes away the sins of the world. (John 1:29)]

You are seated at the right hand of the father, receive

our prayer. [It is Christ Jesus who died, rather, was

raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed

intercedes for us. (Rms 8:34)]

For you alone are the Holy One, [I know who you

are—the Holy One of God. (Luke 4:34)]

You alone are the Lord, [Who will not fear you Lord, or

glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations

will come and worship before you. (Rev 15:4)]

You alone are the most high Jesus Christ, [He will be

great and will be called Son of the Most High. (Luke

1:32)]

With the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. [The

Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my

name. . . (John 14:24)]

 

[MT1926]

Profession of Faith
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of
heaven and earth, [. . . God most High, the creator of
heaven and earth. (Gen 14:19)]
Of all that is seen and unseen. [For in him were created
all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the
invisible . . . (Col 1:16)]

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of
God, eternally begotten of the Father, [Therefore the
child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
(Luke 1:35)]

God from God, Light from Light, true God from true
God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
[. . .who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of
his being.(Heb 1:3)]

Through him all things were made. [In the beginning
was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All
things come to be through him, and without him nothing
came to be. (John 1:1-4)]

For us men and our salvation he came down from
heaven; [No one has gone up to heaven except the one
who came down from heaven, the Son of Man. (John
3:13)]

By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin
Mary, and became man. [When his mother Mary was
betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she
was found with child through the Holy Spirit. (Matt 1:18)]

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
[Then he handed him over to them to be crucified. (John
19:16)]

He suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he
rose again in the fulfillment of the Scriptures; [For I
handed on to you as of first importance what I also
received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance to
the Scriptures; that he was buried; that he was raised on
the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. (1 Cor
15:3)]

He ascended into heaven, [As he blessed them he
parted from them and was taken up to heaven. (Luke
24:51)]

And is seated at the right hand of the Father. [. . . seek
what is above, where Christ is seated at the right hand
of God. (Col 3:1)]

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the
dead, [I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead. (2 Tim 4:1)]

And His kingdom will have no end. [ . . . and of his
kingdom there will be no end. (Luke 1:33)]

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
[It shall come to pass in the last days, God says, that I
will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. (Acts2:17)]

Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the
Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. ["And
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another
Advocate to be with you always." (John 14:16)]

He has spoken through the Prophets. [Concerning this
salvation, prophets who prophesied about the grace that
was to be yours searched and investigated it,
investigating the time and circumstances that the Spirit
of Christ within them indicated when it testified in
advance to the sufferings destined for Christ and the
glories to follow them. (1 Peter 1:10-11)]

We believe in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic
church. [. . .so we, though many, are one body in Christ
and individually parts of one another. (Rms 12:5)

 

[goout]

…
It’s terribly sad that entire church traditions have come to two very opposite views on perhaps the most central issue of Christianity: What is authentic worship?

The first question you need to ask is “who is Christ”?, and from there worship falls into place. Who are we worshiping?

Protestants have lost the true sense of the Incarnation, and this give protestantism a gnostic flavor.
Christ is incarnate. Christ enters the human condition body, blood, soul, and divinity. Christ comes into history. Christ institutes a Church, not a book or a set of ideas to worship. Christ institutes a Church composed of flesh and blood human beings.

We worship Him, not an “it”.
If you get this, the Eucharist is accessible.

 

[MT1926]

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of

sins. [Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the

name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins . .

. (Acts 2:38)]
LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST

Preparation of the Altar and Gifts

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your

goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has

given and human hands have made. [For every man to

eat and drink and enjoy the fruit of all his labor is a gift

of God. (Eccl 3:13)]

It will become for us the bread of life. [I am the bread of

life . . . (John 6:35)]

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your

goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and

work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.

[Then he took a cup, gave thanks and said: "Take this

and share it among yourselves, for I tell you that from

this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until

the kingdom of God comes. (Luke 22:17-18)]

Blessed be God forever. [Blessed be God. (Psalm

68:36)]

Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to

God, the almighty Father. [Therefore, we who are

receiving the unshakable kingdom should have

gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to

God in reverence and awe. (Heb 12:28)]

May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the

praise and glory of his name, for our good and the good

of all his church. [He that offers praise as a sacrifice

glorifies me. . . (Psalm 50:23)]

Eucharistic Prayer

Lift up your hearts. We lift them up to the Lord. [Let us

reach out our hearts toward God in heaven.

(Lamentations 3:41)]

Let us give thanks to the Lord our God. [. . .giving

thanks to God the Father through him. (Col 3:17)]

It is right to give him thanks and praise. [We always give

thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ . . .

(Col 1:3)]
We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of

the world to come. [For if we have grown into union with

him through a death like his, we shall also be united

with him in the resurrection. (Rms 6:5)]

 

[MT1926]

Preface Acclamation

Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,

heaven and earth are full of your glory. ["Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord of hosts," they cried out to one another. "All

the earth is filled with his glory." (Isa 6:3)]

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Hosanna in the highest. [Hosanna! Blessed is he who

comes in the name of the Lord . . . Hosanna in the

highest. (Mark 11:9-10)]

I’ll stop here I’m only half way through the mass. Didn’t realize it would take so many posts.

I can mail you the rest if you’re interested.

God Bless

 

[Wannano]

Preface Acclamation

Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,

heaven and earth are full of your glory. ["Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord of hosts," they cried out to one another. "All

the earth is filled with his glory." (Isa 6:3)]

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Hosanna in the highest. [Hosanna! Blessed is he who

comes in the name of the Lord . . . Hosanna in the

highest. (Mark 11:9-10)]

I’ll stop here I’m only half way through the mass. Didn’t realize it would take so many posts.

I can mail you the rest if you’re interested.

God Bless

I am only guessing you are still referring to me. It’s only fair to let you know I have been witness to hundreds of masses.

 

[MT1926]

I am only guessing you are still referring to me. It’s only fair to let you know I have been witness to hundreds of masses.

Sorry your comment led me to assumed you’ve never been to a Catholic mass. I mean if you’ve been to hundreds of masses your comment makes even less sense. Did you noticed all of the Biblical references in the mass, like the ones I listed? I’m sure St. Paul would be able to follow right along. So why would you claim St. Paul (a Biblical Scholar) be wondering what in the world is happening?

I don’t mean to be trivial but it seems you are claiming to know something about early Christian worship that the rest of us don’t know. Because of your comment, are you making the claim that St. Paul would feel more at home sitting in a non-denominational church or maybe a Baptist or Lutheran church?

Just Curious,

God Bless