How can the highest act of worship for some Christians be idolatry for other Christians?

[lagerald24]

Interesting. The Presbyterians I have always talked with believe that sacraments are just simply outward signs of inward graces. I’ll have to double-check what they mean by that.

 

[HopkinsReb]

I think they hold that it is an action by which we grow spiritually through the memorial of Christ’s death, but that the bread and wine are symbols of what’s happening, not the carriers of it, if that makes sense.

 

[ltwin]

Interesting. The Presbyterians I have always talked with believe that sacraments are just simply outward signs of inward graces. I’ll have to double-check what they mean by that.

Well, this is true. The sacraments are outward signs of what we receive within ourselves by faith. Faith is key in Reformed Eucharistic theology, because the sacraments do not work ex opere operato. In Reformed theology, we receive Christ by faith. If we eat the Lord’s Supper outside of faith, then we have not received Christ at all but merely bread and wine (and condemnation). The Confession points this out:

VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament; yet, they receive not the thing signified thereby; but, by their unworthy coming thereunto, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation. Wherefore, all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Him, so are they unworthy of the Lord’s table; and cannot, without great sin against Christ, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries,[15] or be admitted thereunto.[16]

 

[ltwin]

I think they hold that it is an action by which we grow spiritually through the memorial of Christ’s death, but that the bread and wine are symbols of what’s happening, not the carriers of it, if that makes sense.

That isn’t memorialism. Memorialism or symbolic Eucharistic theology says that the Eucharist is primarily or only a symbolic memorial. The Reformed churches teach that, while the bread and wine do not physically change into the body and blood, Christ is spiritually present in the Supper and nourishes those who actually believe.

This is very different from what you find in Baptist churches, which truly teach symbolism.

 

[Startingcatholic]

When you mention the idea of getting grace I’m assuming your meaning being in a state of Grace correct? Because I could see if your used the words of getting grace he could think that we believe if we do the sacraments we save ourselves. He could think we believe in works to make it to heaven. I had a discussion. With my Protestant Dad a couple of weeks ago about the difference of justification and works. Because we as catholics believe in solo gratia but where we differ is in the idea of justification. I.e. through going to the sacrament of reconciliation and mass we are able to stay in a state of Grace.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

I think they hold that it is an action by which we grow spiritually through the memorial of Christ’s death, but that the bread and wine are symbols of what’s happening, not the carriers of it, if that makes sense.

That isn’t memorialism. Memorialism or symbolic Eucharistic theology says that the Eucharist is primarily or only a symbolic memorial. The Reformed churches teach that, while the bread and wine do not physically change into the body and blood, Christ is spiritually present in the Supper and nourishes those who actually believe.

Maybe so, but that’s not what the Presbyterians I know believe.

 

[ltwin]

Maybe so, but that’s not what the Presbyterians I know believe.

Understood. Maybe there has been “doctrinal drift”, but the historical position has been belief in a “spiritual presence” as discussed in this article from the ultra-conservative Orthodox Presbyterian Church:

Calvin, and those coming from his direction are the ones I do find to be the most biblical, clear, and helpful. While denying that the elements themselves are in any way changed, he argued strongly that Christ was truly present by his/the Spirit in such a way that we can and should believe that Christ is truly, “really” present. In other words, the “real” presence of Christ, is a uniquely spiritual presence. The Supper, according to Calvin and the Reformed tradition, is truly a unique meeting with the resurrected Christ who promises to nourish the souls of his people as they feed upon him by faith.

 

[po18guy]

A malevolent force is exploiting our concupiscence by appealing to our egos. Nothing more than a repeat of Genesis 3. In so many cases, man happily complies with that appeal, as he is inclined, via concupiscence, toward that which is personally satisfying rather than that which is morally correct. Division is the natural result.

Once divided from unity, the ego needs a defense. No better defense than to proclaim the other to be in error. Distortions, fabrications, inventions and downright lies follow.

 

[HopkinsReb]

There has definitely been doctrinal drift, given the current beliefs of the PCUSA. The Reformed churches are so fragmented that making a general statement about what Reformed Christians believe is about as silly as making a general statement about what Protestants in general believe.

 

[ltwin]

There has definitely been doctrinal drift, given the current beliefs of the PCUSA. The Reformed churches are so fragmented that making a general statement about what Reformed Christians believe is about as silly as making a general statement about what Protestants in general believe.

It would make sense that a liberal shift would accompany an increase in memorialism, since liberalism tends to downplay the supernatural elements of Christian theology.

 

[lagerald24]

When you mention the idea of getting grace I’m assuming your meaning being in a state of Grace correct?

You see, the Sacraments were instituted by Christ to give us grace. We believe as Catholics that Christ established Baptism as the means by which we are to receive sanctifying grace and be initiated into the Church. As John 3:5 says, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Also, the Holy Eucharist increases in us sanctifying or habitual grace. “…unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you,” --John 6:53.

Because I could see if your used the words of getting grace he could think that we believe if we do the sacraments we save ourselves.

Well, Christ obviously is the meritorious cause of our justification. His death on the cross gained infinite graces for us. This grace, however, must be applied subjectively to us. Christ instituted the Sacrament of Baptism to be the way in which we are received into His family. We aren’t said to have “earned” our salvation or to have “worked for it.” Rather, we trust in Christ’s promises towards us.

 

[Startingcatholic]

Exactly and I just was wanting to say that many times outside of the Catholic religion people see the sacraments as a way catholics obtain grace without Jesus or at least that is what my dad thought. Thank for the really good insight into that btw!

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

Jesus died for each and every one of us. If you were the only person on the planet, Jesus would have STILL died for you. Granted if you were the only one, you would be the one to crucify him, which really shows the power our sins have. But what I’m saying is, Jesus died equally for St. John Paul II as he did for you and me.

We get graces from God through the sacraments and grace is basically help and guidance from the Holy Spirit. Like in confession we get graces to not fall from the sins we confess, meaning we get help and guidence to avoid these certain sins.

When we are in mortal sin, we are out of a state of grace, and these graces can no longer work in us and grow in us (until confession!) Confirmation gives us MANY graces, one of which is the gift of knowledge, it helps us to have a better understanding of the faith and the gifts we are given. Another gift of the Holy Spirit is wisdom. There are 7 total, if you are interested further we can talk about it in PMs.

Here is a video from Fr. Mike Schmitz which I think you would like related to this topic, let me know your thoughts on it:

 

[MT1926]

At the beginning of the service, the priest announced to the crowd that the Catholic community very much wants to thank the "Protestant " church for enabling the function to happen in their church. His statement emphasized “the reality that this cooperation is in fact how we should be able to show love for each because the bottom line is that we are serving the same God and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.”
The buzz around town since is “boy, the Catholic Church is sure changing!”

Would you say this priest is sowing seeds of confusion?

This was a very interesting post.

I just wanted to say that what he said at the beginning wouldn’t have sowed seeds of confusion. However, you called it a service? The priest was required to have a mass for the man’s funeral. Did he give the deceased a full Catholic mass? Including a Catholic homily (not a memorial about the man’s life, letting others give kind words during the mass). Did he include Holy Communion, which would have excluded all of the non-Catholics from partaking?

If he didn’t have a full Catholic mass and just a memorial service then I would say he disrespected the deceased and sowed seeds of confusion to everyone who attended.

I mean no disrespect but it seemed confusing to me that the buzz around town would have been the Catholic Church is sure changing and not that the Catholic Church never changes seeing that the priest excluded so many from the Holy Eucharist.

Just curious,

God Bless

 

[exnihilo]

Psalms are especially poetic. Saying let my prayer isn’t saying prayer equals incense. I think the point of those verses is that one should love God. And not that one should not offer sacrifice.

If God only desires love then why did He command incense and sacrifice? And what is the purpose of the prophecy in Malachi? What is that verse saying?

 

[lagerald24]

Even a cursory look at the Early Church writings will show one that the Fathers believed in the Sacrifice of the Mass and that they held it in very high regard.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

At the beginning of the service, the priest announced to the crowd that the Catholic community very much wants to thank the "Protestant " church for enabling the function to happen in their church. His statement emphasized “the reality that this cooperation is in fact how we should be able to show love for each because the bottom line is that we are serving the same God and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.”
The buzz around town since is “boy, the Catholic Church is sure changing!”

Would you say this priest is sowing seeds of confusion?

This was a very interesting post.

I just wanted to say that what he said at the beginning wouldn’t have sowed seeds of confusion. However, you called it a service? The priest was required to have a mass for the man’s funeral. Did he give the deceased a full Catholic mass? Including a Catholic homily (not a memorial about the man’s life, letting others give kind words during the mass). Did he include Holy Communion, which would have excluded all of the non-Catholics from partaking?

If he didn’t have a full Catholic mass and just a memorial service then I would say he disrespected the deceased and sowed seeds of confusion to everyone who attended.

I mean no disrespect but it seemed confusing to me that the buzz around town would have been the Catholic Church is sure changing and not that the Catholic Church never changes seeing that the priest excluded so many from the Holy Eucharist.

Just curious,

God Bless

Since you are the only one showing interest in this occasion I will pm you with more detail which I think you will find interesting. I won’t get to it until a bit later though. Thanks.

 

[ltwin]

If God only desires love then why did He command incense and sacrifice? And what is the purpose of the prophecy in Malachi? What is that verse saying?

The sacrifice that he demands is a broken and contrite heart and to “present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1).

Malachi’s prophecy is a rebuke of the temple priests who offered polluted sacrifices (blind and lame animals) on the altar of God. He says that God will seek those among the nations who will worship him with pure offerings. The point is that in the future, God 's people will not be those who worship in a particular temple but will be those who offer him their very best.

This is exactly what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well, "But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. "

 

[ltwin]

Psalms are especially poetic. Saying let my prayer isn’t saying prayer equals incense. I think the point of those verses is that one should love God. And not that one should not offer sacrifice.

The point the Psalm is making is that incense is symbolic of prayer. Revelation 5:6-8 makes the same connection, “with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Of course, no one is saying we should not offer sacrifice. What I’m saying is that the sacrifice that God desires from us is a spiritual one–he wants us, all of us.

 

[exnihilo]

Malachi’s prophecy is a rebuke of the temple priests who offered polluted sacrifices (blind and lame animals) on the altar of God. He says that God will seek those among the nations who will worship him with pure offerings. The point is that in the future, God 's people will not be those who worship in a particular temple but will be those who offer him their very best.

So why doesn’t it say in the future the true worshipers of God will offer no sacrifice or incense? And why do we think this should be taken figuratively?

This is exactly what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well, "But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. "

That doesn’t mean no sacrifice will be offered. Worshiping in spirit and truth doesn’t mean no sacrifice.

Of course, no one is saying we should not offer sacrifice. What I’m saying is that the sacrifice that God desires from us is a spiritual one–he wants us, all of us.

What does that practically mean then? What is a spiritual sacrifice?