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Gorgias
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Aristotle. Aquinas.STT:
Where did you get that notion from?
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EndTimes
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rom
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Unsettled Catholic Doctrine? Do you have any source or document saying that the Magisterium disagreed with it or even doubted it? This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches (CCC#365):
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:[234] i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.
Now that is official Catholic Teaching. Where did you get the idea that this was not the teaching of the Magisterium?
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Catholic361
Guest
What about those who have had an near death experience the soul leaves the body is not there for a time so the person is dead by medical standards no signs of life but comes back to the body so in turn back to this life and tell about what it is like on the otherside of the veil?
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rom
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“Matter” and “form” are philosophical terms used by St. Thomas Aquinas to explain theological concepts. Theology usually use “body” and “soul” instead of “matter” and “form.” But they do correspond. Thus, matter is to body, as form is to soul. What the Catechism is saying is that in man body and soul are not two separate natures, but they constitute one single human nature. And this was exactly how St. Thomas explained it in terms of matter and form. Matter and form are each not complete beings, but are co-principles of being, so that together they constitute one single substance. When the soul separates from the body, the surviving soul (or form) will have the status of an “incomplete substance,” and it will remain in that state until the last judgment when souls are once again re-united with their bodies.
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Kindnessmatters
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Just as God created himself in the form of Jesus so He could walk among us, as a material and corporal being, he also gives us bodies for our lives on Earth. However, our souls do not require a body and are immortal. When life on Earth is done, our souls leave our bodies and our bodies return to the earth.
I hope that makes sense.
I hope that makes sense.
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rom
Guest
Yes. The bodies, although naturally corruptible, will share in the immortality of the soul. Remember, Adam was not originally created to die, but that death crept in only as a penalty for his sin.
Why do you say the OP was a non-sequitur false question? And who is misunderstanding what?
Please explain your side more. This is a philosophy forum where you are expected to explain your thoughts and prove your assertions.
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EndTimes
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Note: I did not ‘say’
What I did was ask a Question:
Getting back to the OP -
How can the soul leave the body ---- if it is the form of it?
“A non-sequitur false question w/misunderstandings?”
POINT being… Without proper understandings
as is attempted to be shown via this thread… ,.
without actually understanding “soul”, ‘body’ and ‘form’ -
the sense presented within that Question - is potentially filled with ambiguity…
AND - your position on the Resurrected Body as being corruptible begs for this:
The Resurrection Body
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question!When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
45 The Scriptures tell us, What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like] the heavenly man.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?
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rom
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The resurrected body is not a simple substance, but is composed of many parts. Whatever has parts can decompose into those parts. Therefore, the resurrected body is naturally and intrinsically corruptible, as all bodies. are. However, the resurrected body is extrinsically incorruptible, and this is how we must understand Holy Scripture. Although the resurrected body, insofar as it is a body, is naturally corruptible, God will prevent it from corruption after the last judgment. This means that the reason for its incorruptibility is not coming from its intrinsic nature as a body, but from something extrinsic to its nature, that is, from the power of God who will prevent it from being separated again from the immortal soul.
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EndTimes
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No. Scriptures opposes your opinion which opposes Scriptures
So that Scriptures do not become Obfuscated: AGAIN
The Resurrection Body
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
45 The Scriptures tell us, What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like] the heavenly man.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?
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rom
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I take it that when the OP was posted, the author (STT) assumed that because this is a philosophy forum, that the readers are already familiar with the terms “soul,” “body,” “matter,” and “form,” which is why he did not define them. Anyway, if your problem is lack of familiarity with the meaning of terms, then you should ask for a definition of terms, rather than condemn the OP as being a “non-sequitur false question.”
You did not rebut my argument. Instead, you made a long quotation from St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, which does not disprove my argument either. The point is very simple. The resurrected body is intrinsically corruptible, but extrinsically incorruptible. St. Paul emphasizes the second part: that the body is extrinsically incorruptible because it now shares in the immortality of the soul to which it is united. This is why he calls it a “spiritual body,” because it will have some of the characteristics of the soul.
However, from a philosophical perspective, it remains true that whatever consists of parts is intrinsically capable of being dissolved into those parts, and therefore, corruptible. You did NOT disprove that. The resurrected body will have parts - the head, the trunk, the limbs, etc. will still be there. So, the resurrected body will be intrinsically corruptible, but by God’s power will be extrinsically incorruptible. Where is the problem?
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EndTimes
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Were that actually so…
there wouldn’t have been postings on their definitions which did not involve me…
… You did not rebut my argument. Instead, you made a long quotation from St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, which does not disprove my argument either.
Well obviously - I and St. Paul - Disagree…
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SeekerOfTruth7
Guest
Hello there
You’re misunderstanding ROM. He is actually agreeing with you and St.Paul, but taking it deeper and to its logical end. That which is composed of part can therefore decompose of those parts. Therefore, the Glorified Body in the Resurrection can logically decompose, but the teaching of St. Paul is that which is corruptible will put on that which is incorruptible by God’s power. Therefore, our resurrected bodies will be incorruptible by God’s power and will not our own.
So, you and @rom are agreeing, he is just expanding on the philosophy and logic of it.
God Blesss
You’re misunderstanding ROM. He is actually agreeing with you and St.Paul, but taking it deeper and to its logical end. That which is composed of part can therefore decompose of those parts. Therefore, the Glorified Body in the Resurrection can logically decompose, but the teaching of St. Paul is that which is corruptible will put on that which is incorruptible by God’s power. Therefore, our resurrected bodies will be incorruptible by God’s power and will not our own.
So, you and @rom are agreeing, he is just expanding on the philosophy and logic of it.
God Blesss
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Gorgias
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The funny thing here is that you object that the notion on the grounds that it’s not a magisterial document… and then you turn around and quote a non-magisterial document!
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EndTimes
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Honestly… I find the expansion unnecessary for its beautiful Understanding via Paul
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SeekerOfTruth7
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It’s okay if you find it unnecessary, others find the logic interesting and brilliant but that doesn’t mean its wrong. I think @rom was correct just as you are.
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EndTimes
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Yet… rom and I involved in serious unresolved diametrical differences re: part of the central topic.
… The Resurrected Body
Ergo, That said. For me?
To go anywhere else than the depth and beauty of Understandings gleaned
which comes through this portion of Scriptures - would never be my cuppa.
Ergo… for me? And most likely others? Unnecessary…
Peace…
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