How can we be modestly dressed when we are swimming

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It’s impossible, give it up.

Swimming that is.

In mixed gender company other than your husband it is basically impossible for a woman… And impossible to go to a mixed gender pool or beach for a man too.

I recall once as a man going to a YMCA pool, and being refused access because I wore swimming shorts instead of a speedo. YMCA? Take out the C!

One can always of course, aspire to owning a pool in one’s fenced in backyard, or indoors. 🙂
 
eichenb2 said:
ahiida.com/index.php?a=results&subcat=59

That is the link to the Burqini. It, actually, is a clever invention. If Muslims, who have hard guidelines about how to dress, can come up with something like this, Christians should have an easier time. I am happy to see this thread. As a former Muslim, I think Christians (Men & Women) could do with a little more modesty. I am including myself, as well. The biological differences in my opinion are God-given. Women may not understand that men are so visually stimulated, but it does not negate its truth. Christianity does not give many hard and fast rules, but that does not let us off the hook. The chapter on Modesty in the Catechism beautifully articulates the Church’s stance on modesty. It is a spiritual concept and we (MEN & WOMEN) must negotiate between the letter and the spirit of the law. I hate to see Christians to define themselves morally as non-Muslims. Christians and especially Catholics have a long history of pious practices of modesty. Maybe we should reconsider them. The argument that we should adapt our standards to the world’s moral standards does not seem to resonate with the Biblical testimony or the Church’s teaching. Incidentally, many former Muslims convert to Islam because they see in Islam a lived-out morality. I have heard this from converts on several occassions.
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I am all for modesty.
Especially if men show the way. Let the men wear exactly what they expect the women to wear.
If the woman should understand the visualness of men and take account of that while she dresses, as I agree she should, then the man also has to understand the inherent tyranny that has been held over women in many times and cultures throughout history and even until today by means of clothes.
Both women and men, but in particular women, have often been held in slavery through what they wore. Their worth and virtue was defined and hung on this most illusive branch to the poverty and hardening of all such cultures.

The pharisees thought to themselves: “Why does Jesus let himself be touched by this woman??!! Does He not see what kind of woman He is dealing with?”.

Answer: Jesus saw beyond clothes and saw the Beloved Daughter of His Father. We should learn to see with His eyes.

I come from a Lutheran culture where clothes was never mentioned in our Churches but rather the heart, the intention, and from there I went to the Catholic Church where I for the first time was made suspicious and seen as a piece of meat by the pious catholic men that thought it was fair of them to judge women on account of their attire.
I find all such judgement an error.
In Jewish culture the tyranny of Jesus’ day continues. In Islam also and here to the extreme…
Christianity brings something completely new and different.

I come right from a culture - living in the middle east- where everyone was labelled according to their clothes and I found it suffocating and stiffening and a great temptation to hypocrisy and pride among all groups in that society. That same pride and hypocrisy I have sometimes encountered here on CAF.

Jugdement because of clothes is used to bind people and often to suppress especially women into conformity and defeminisation which never ends.
As for you I advice you to read the book “Infidel” by Hirsi Ali. Its about how exterior religious rules void of freedom and love can cause a person to loose all confidence in God.
The Catholic who wears a burka or urges others to do so can never in the first place have grasped the freedom to which we are called in Christ.

Grace
 
GraceDK said:
I am all for modesty.
Especially if men show the way. Let the men wear exactly what they expect the women to wear.
If the woman should understand the visualness of men and take account of that while she dresses, as I agree she should, then the man also has to understand the inherent tyranny that has been held over women in many times and cultures throughout history and even until today by means of clothes.
Both women and men, but in particular women, have often been held in slavery through what they wore. Their worth and virtue was defined and hung on this most illusive branch to the poverty and hardening of all such cultures.

The pharisees thought to themselves: “Why does Jesus let himself be touched by this woman??!! Does He not see what kind of woman He is dealing with?”.

Answer: Jesus saw beyond clothes and saw the Beloved Daughter of His Father. We should learn to see with His eyes.

I come from a Lutheran culture where clothes was never mentioned in our Churches but rather the heart, the intention, and from there I went to the Catholic Church where I for the first time was made suspicious and seen as a piece of meat by the pious catholic men that thought it was fair of them to judge women on account of their attire.
I find all such judgement an error.
In Jewish culture the tyranny of Jesus’ day continues. In Islam also and here to the extreme…
Christianity brings something completely new and different.

I come right from a culture - living in the middle east- where everyone was labelled according to their clothes and I found it suffocating and stiffening and a great temptation to hypocrisy and pride among all groups in that society. That same pride and hypocrisy I have sometimes encountered here on CAF.

Jugdement because of clothes is used to bind people and often to suppress especially women into conformity and defeminisation which never ends.
As for you I advice you to read the book “Infidel” by Hirsi Ali. Its about how exterior religious rules void of freedom and love can cause a person to loose all confidence in God.
The Catholic who wears a burka or urges others to do so can never in the first place have grasped the freedom to which we are called in Christ.

Grace
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Modesty must be lived out in the path of moderation. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. One ditch is hard literalism. This is the legalism that you are mentioning. The other ditch is a licentiousness that could be identified as antinomian. No matter how one achieves a balance on this road, they must recognize that men and women are different; biologically, physiologically, and physically. Men and women understand physical attraction differently. The idea that modesty (or any moral value) is all in the heart and not acted upon is a very Lutheran and, in my opinion leads to heretical protestant doctrines.
 
Eucharisted said:
http://creartosona.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/2008-06-02160838-640x480.jpg

I propose we all use swimming robes in the pool 😃
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I’m all for that as well. And as another poster mentioned way back, for ladies a cover up while out of the water. A few have mentioned shorts and tanks. I’m a serious swimmer it’s hard to swim in a burqa!! Or even cut-offs and T shirts. I don’t go to the pool to lay around getting tanned or do that even at the beach. I get in the water. While out I’m covered with a terry cover-all. protects me from the sun as well and I’ll usually drape a towel over my legs. It’s really not that hard to do. :rolleyes:
 
eichenb2 said:
Modesty must be lived out in the path of moderation. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. One ditch is hard literalism. This is the legalism that you are mentioning. The other ditch is a licentiousness that could be identified as antinomian. No matter how one achieves a balance on this road, they must recognize that men and women are different; biologically, physiologically, and physically. Men and women understand physical attraction differently. The idea that modesty (or any moral value) is all in the heart and not acted upon is a very Lutheran and, in my opinion leads to heretical protestant doctrines.
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I hope you have read and pondered all of my post, sir.
I do agree we all have a responsibility… but the mindset that wants to control and conceal body and sexuality of women has often and still does lead to tyranny, hypocrisy and pride.
How men perceive women physically is greatly a cultural question. There is objectification on either side of the extreme, you are right about that.
The identity of the women in all that she is, including a sexual person with passions and legitimate sexual desires have been sought controlled and eliminated in many islamist countries through isolation, strict dress codes and mutilation of her private parts. This cannot be denied.
Even if you cover women from head to toe you can never eliminate the sexual urges and fantasies of each individual, male and female. Only distort them. Overfocusing on women modesty is one step in the direction where religion becomes pharisaic.
Yes we all should be modestly dressed in accordance with our conscience. But hiding ourselves in burkinis does not help to create the right mindset… Chastity is a discipline mainly, I do not say only, but mainly, of the mind. Take away the responsibility of men and you have a person without integrity and true manliness
The question about clothes touches on the equality of men and women, their freedom, recognition of their sexuality and objective absolute worth as human persons.
Therefore the topic is very delicate.

Ps. I hope to see you on other threads… your conversion from Islam to Christ interests me alot. .
 
GraceDK said:
I hope you have read and pondered all of my post, sir.
I do agree we all have a responsibility… but the mindset that wants to control and conceal body and sexuality of women has often and still does lead to tyranny, hypocrisy and pride.
How men perceive women physically is greatly a cultural question. There is objectification on either side of the extreme, you are right about that.
The identity of the women in all that she is, including a sexual person with passions and legitimate sexual desires have been sought controlled and eliminated in many islamist countries through isolation, strict dress codes and mutilation of her private parts. This cannot be denied.
Even if you cover women from head to toe you can never eliminate the sexual urges and fantasies of each individual, male and female. Only distort them. Overfocusing on women modesty is one step in the direction where religion becomes pharisaic.
Yes we all should be modestly dressed in accordance with our conscience. But hiding ourselves in burkinis does not help to create the right mindset… Chastity is a discipline mainly, I do not say only, but mainly, of the mind. Take away the responsibility of men and you have a person without integrity and true manliness
The question about clothes touches on the equality of men and women, their freedom, recognition of their sexuality and objective absolute worth as human persons.
Therefore the topic is very delicate.

Ps. I hope to see you on other threads… your conversion from Islam to Christ interests me alot. .
Click to expand...
What do you mean by freedom; in the context of the clothes that we where? Can a woman walk around in a biniki and fault men for being aroused? What did bathing suits look like on Catholic women in 1800? Would they look more like a bikini or a burqini? What was that? I guess I am concerned that your response may resemble something like “that was then, this is now”. How far can that be pushed? Why stop with morality and clothes? Why not say that Christ only appoint male Apostles because that was then? We can create a whole new way of looking at Christianity. Oh…whoops…that would be protestantism! Hypocracy is a rampant problem in all people. Let not throw out a rich moral and cultural Catholic heritage to follow the culture and all of its whims.
 
eichenb2; What do you mean by freedom; in the context of the clothes that we where?

Freedom in Christianity is the freedom to be regarded as a person of absolute worth and of deserving of absolute respect simply because every individual is created in the image of God and bought by the Blood of Jesus. Regardless of your status, wealth, gender or attire. I shall remember that this absolute worth is what I am looking at even if I meet a fetus, a beggar, a prostitute, a drug abuser or a criminal.

**Can a woman walk around in a biniki and fault men for being aroused? **

I dont think a woman will fault a man for being accidentally aroused. Arousal can happen to both men and women in many situations and is a normal part of human life. What she can fault in herself is if she is trying to generete lust in men. And what is mans own fault is if he objectifies a woman due to her dress or willingly lusts after her.

What did bathing suits look like on Catholic women in 1800?

Just like the bathing suit of men 50 years ago have greatly changed, so the womens were different than they are today. Do you wear a swim suit from the thirties when you are on the beach? They were more modest. Your shorts would have probably seen as inappropriate back then. So were ancles seen as highly arousing in victorian England. And so are hair and neck today in Islamic culture… I still hold that dress code is culturally determined.

**Would they look more like a bikini or a burqini? What was that? I guess I am concerned that your response may resemble something like “that was then, this is now”. How far can that be pushed? Why stop with morality and clothes? **

I distinguish the question of morality from the question of clothes until a certain extent. The other day on TV I saw a muslim tribe in Africa. The women had uncovered breasts and the men had uncovered genital parts, and this was not seen as sexually challenging in that culture. Were they immoral? No, not according to that culture. As Christ says: all sin starts in the heart.

Why not say that Christ only appoint male Apostles because that was then? We can create a whole new way of looking at Christianity. Oh…whoops…that would be protestantism!

Your sarcasm is uncalled for. I am not a Protestant. Many a Catholic would and have agreed with me on previous debates on this topic.

Hypocracy is a rampant problem in all people. Let not throw out a rich moral and cultural Catholic heritage to follow the culture and all of its whims.

Absolutely. But there must be a testing about what is the sin in the spirit of the times. Its not the showing of flesh in my oppinion but the objectification/use of women and men, the emptiness, the materialism, to sum it up: the perversion of things that are wonderful in themselves and created for the glory of God.
That, and not the human body, is the sickness of secular societies.

Grace
 
GraceDK said:
Arousal can happen to both men and women in many situations and is a normal part of human life. What she can fault in herself is if she is trying to generete lust in men. And what is mans own fault is if he objectifies a woman due to her dress or willingly lusts after her.

What did bathing suits look like on Catholic women in 1800?

Just like the bathing suit of men 50 years ago have greatly changed, so the womens were different than they are today. Do you wear a swim suit from the thirties when you are on the beach? They were more modest. Your shorts would have probably seen as inappropriate back then. So were ancles seen as highly arousing in victorian England. And so are hair and neck today in Islamic culture… I still hold that dress code is culturally determined.
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Culture. Period.

My grandparents wore a two-piece and a speedo to beach, and, of course, so did my parents. It’s just normal swimwear in my country. Period. No one gets excited over this because they don’t expect to. If a girl was naked or topless. guys would get excited, b/c that’s what they’re *supposed *to do, under the circumstances.

Culture.

In an African tribe, they told the men that Western men were turned on by breasts. The men LAUGHED and said “like babies?”. All women there breastfed for a long time and went around in topless.

Cultural.
 
GraceDK said:
eichenb2; What do you mean by freedom; in the context of the clothes that we where?

Freedom in Christianity is the freedom to be regarded as a person of absolute worth and of deserving of absolute respect simply because every individual is created in the image of God and bought by the Blood of Jesus. Regardless of your status, wealth, gender or attire. I shall remember that this absolute worth is what I am looking at even if I meet a fetus, a beggar, a prostitute, a drug abuser or a criminal.

**Can a woman walk around in a biniki and fault men for being aroused? **

I dont think a woman will fault a man for being accidentally aroused. Arousal can happen to both men and women in many situations and is a normal part of human life. What she can fault in herself is if she is trying to generete lust in men. And what is mans own fault is if he objectifies a woman due to her dress or willingly lusts after her.

What did bathing suits look like on Catholic women in 1800?

Just like the bathing suit of men 50 years ago have greatly changed, so the womens were different than they are today. Do you wear a swim suit from the thirties when you are on the beach? They were more modest. Your shorts would have probably seen as inappropriate back then. So were ancles seen as highly arousing in victorian England. And so are hair and neck today in Islamic culture… I still hold that dress code is culturally determined.

**Would they look more like a bikini or a burqini? What was that? I guess I am concerned that your response may resemble something like “that was then, this is now”. How far can that be pushed? Why stop with morality and clothes? **

I distinguish the question of morality from the question of clothes until a certain extent. The other day on TV I saw a muslim tribe in Africa. The women had uncovered breasts and the men had uncovered genital parts, and this was not seen as sexually challenging in that culture. Were they immoral? No, not according to that culture. As Christ says: all sin starts in the heart.

Why not say that Christ only appoint male Apostles because that was then? We can create a whole new way of looking at Christianity. Oh…whoops…that would be protestantism!

Your sarcasm is uncalled for. I am not a Protestant. Many a Catholic would and have agreed with me on previous debates on this topic.

Hypocracy is a rampant problem in all people. Let not throw out a rich moral and cultural Catholic heritage to follow the culture and all of its whims.

Absolutely. But there must be a testing about what is the sin in the spirit of the times. Its not the showing of flesh in my oppinion but the objectification/use of women and men, the emptiness, the materialism, to sum it up: the perversion of things that are wonderful in themselves and created for the glory of God.
That, and not the human body, is the sickness of secular societies.

Grace
Click to expand...
Balance is my point! Objectification is wrong, but so is temptation. Men and women both get aroused, but not the same way! I have talked to my wife about this and she absolutely agrees with me. By the way, bathing suits for men and women have RESPECTIVELY changed over time, but they were never the same. One of the problems with western society is that we have left natural law values. Men and Women are equal but not the same. There was and is an order of creation. Catholic priesthood is an application of that. It is, was, and always will be for men only. By the way, I was not being sarcastic. I was applying the “times have changed” mentality. This is exactly the way Catholic women who want to be priests reason. Also, I can guarantee you that the tribe you saw was NOT Muslim with their breasts and genitals exposed. Just as a reminder, when Catholics came to native peoples in Latin America, they told them that should cover their private parts. I don’t think the Church teachs more relativism.
 
fannypanny said:
lmao…
today when i was in an area which is predominately muslim populated, i actually saw some muslim lady dressed in the sportswear version of the burquini. The one in purple that is the first link down when you type burquini in2 the google search engine.
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LOL this is one that I have. The other is black and silver. As I said before I have had a couple bouts of melanoma and this is the way I can go sailing, swim and mountain biking in the sun. I really prefer them to being slathered with chemicals or living like a bat in the dark. 😉 When swimming in doors I use a modest one piece with a higher neck and swim shorts over it.

They are comfortable. Dry quickly and yes you can swim in them. If you are not wearing this for religious reasons you can also get swim shorts to go on under this and still not be exposed to the suns rays while in the water.
 
eichenb2 said:
Balance is my point! Objectification is wrong, but so is temptation. Men and women both get aroused, but not the same way! I have talked to my wife about this and she absolutely agrees with me. By the way, bathing suits for men and women have RESPECTIVELY changed over time, but they were never the same. One of the problems with western society is that we have left natural law values. Men and Women are equal but not the same. There was and is an order of creation. Catholic priesthood is an application of that. It is, was, and always will be for men only. By the way, I was not being sarcastic. I was applying the “times have changed” mentality. This is exactly the way Catholic women who want to be priests reason. Also, I can guarantee you that the tribe you saw was NOT Muslim with their breasts and genitals exposed. Just as a reminder, when Catholics came to native peoples in Latin America, they told them that should cover their private parts. I don’t think the Church teachs more relativism.
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Yeah I was surprised too, that it was a muslim tribe that was wearing clothes like that. However there were alot of other things that were just as you would expect though… the women did all the work there while the men relaxed, the men were tyrants over the women, there was seperation of men and women and the women was supposed to be available at all time sexually and never had any pleasure from it themselves.
I do not think you can compare fashion to the question of priests and gender roles. A man can never be a mother, a woman can never be a priest. I am not stating otherwise, yet even if you see programs about the universality of the Catholic Church you will see the pope visiting catholic cultures where people dress very differently than what you expect in your mind which is influenced by European culture… a culture that has undergone many fashions itself but was until recently always dominated by the fact that its pretty cold in our climate here.
In the 30s it was seen as evil if a woman wore pants or a bit of lip stick. Now this has changed. At the time of Jesus men wore “dresses”… Fashion and the way human flesh is perceived is a cultural thing. There is nothing intricically evil about naked bodies.
This is a historical fact.
Therein I do not say that I disagree with you on your points. Only that I problematize your basic assumptions. I am all for modesty from both men and women, both when it comes to clothes and other public behaviour, such as language etc.
I think men can get away with a lot by saying they are different wired than women.
I am not a moral relativist, and you have no grounds to accuse me of that either. I might say then that your stance is based on subjective emotions.
 
TLM08 said:
This normally applies only if the woman is reasonably fit and attractive. If she is not, you might as well be dangling bicycle in front of the dog. He will have no interest. This is not meant to be uncharitable, but a reality of nature and a fact of life.
😉

Men: I hope you guys have my back… I feel a strong cold front about to collide with the warm moist tropical air.
:o
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Not a man, but absolutely agree. Now that statistics show 66% of the American population is overweight or obese, the vast majority should NOT appear in public in a swim suitof any kind out of consideration of others at the beach/pool.
 
GraceDK said:
Yeah I was surprised too, that it was a muslim tribe that was wearing clothes like that. However there were alot of other things that were just as you would expect though… the women did all the work there while the men relaxed, the men were tyrants over the women, there was seperation of men and women and the women was supposed to be available at all time sexually and never had any pleasure from it themselves.
I do not think you can compare fashion to the question of priests and gender roles. A man can never be a mother, a woman can never be a priest. I am not stating otherwise, yet even if you see programs about the universality of the Catholic Church you will see the pope visiting catholic cultures where people dress very differently than what you expect in your mind which is influenced by European culture… a culture that has undergone many fashions itself but was until recently always dominated by the fact that its pretty cold in our climate here.
In the 30s it was seen as evil if a woman wore pants or a bit of lip stick. Now this has changed. At the time of Jesus men wore “dresses”… Fashion and the way human flesh is perceived is a cultural thing. There is nothing intricically evil about naked bodies.
This is a historical fact.
Therein I do not say that I disagree with you on your points. Only that I problematize your basic assumptions. I am all for modesty from both men and women, both when it comes to clothes and other public behaviour, such as language etc.
I think men can get away with a lot by saying they are different wired than women.
I am not a moral relativist, and you have no grounds to accuse me of that either. I might say then that your stance is based on subjective emotions.
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I can GUARANTEE that the tribe you saw was not Muslim! You are unfairly stereotyping Islam and Muslim culture, in the same why that they stereotype Christians.
Secondly, I must say that I agree with point about objectifying woman’s bodies. Too frequently, women in our culture objectify their bodies, by the way they dress! This is because they do not respect themselves or understand human nature. Men and women are wired different. It is a scientific fact, not my opinion. We are different and it is wonderful. God did not make a mistake. Judeo-Christian. I think you are consumed with issues of control. It pervades all or your replies. I am basing my views on Scripture.

Ephesians 5:21-30 “Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.”

Finally, fashions do change based on culture and time, but modesty is conceptual standard. I am sure that you are not suggesting that The Blessed Mother would wear hip hugger jeans, a pierced navel, and a tattoo on Her lower pain. What would Mary wear???

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
 
Incidentally, I knew a couple that practiced the Wiccan religion. The husband told me that when they got married, he sifted through his wife’s closet and picked out things that he did not want her to wear. He said in the presence of his Wiccan wife and she confirmed it. What he just controlling her or was St. Thomas right about natural law?
 
dumbseeker said:
How can we be modestly dressed when we are swimming? Are bikinis acceptable?
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Balance is the key. Catholic teaching does not set hard and fast guidelines about dress. There is some cultural variance. However, Christians (men and woman) must understand human nature and weakness and not carry ourselves (including the way we dress) in a manner that will be a scandal (stumbling block) to others. My own personal opinion is that a bikini is not suitable to wear for a Christian man or woman. I am a man and I wear a t-shirt and long shorts when I swim. My wife wears a one piece suit with a mesh cover shirt and a sarong. Of course, she takes it off to swim.
 
eichenb2 said:
Incidentally, I knew a couple that practiced the Wiccan religion. The husband told me that when they got married, he sifted through his wife’s closet and picked out things that he did not want her to wear. He said in the presence of his Wiccan wife and she confirmed it. What he just controlling her or was St. Thomas right about natural law?
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That would be very odd, since most (if not all) Wiccans that I ever met have no problem with nudity, often do their rituals “skyclad”, etc.
 
ElizabethPH said:
I’m all for that as well. And as another poster mentioned way back, for ladies a cover up while out of the water. A few have mentioned shorts and tanks. I’m a serious swimmer it’s hard to swim in a burqa!! Or even cut-offs and T shirts. I don’t go to the pool to lay around getting tanned or do that even at the beach. I get in the water. While out I’m covered with a terry cover-all. protects me from the sun as well and I’ll usually drape a towel over my legs. It’s really not that hard to do. :rolleyes:
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I am NOT a serious swimmer. In fact, I go to the beach to GET A TAN. (well, not today…it is currently -18 F outside).

I do that usually in a spaghetti strap top and shorts.

I would not be able to get much color if I covered up while at the beach!
 
Catholic90 said:
I am NOT a serious swimmer. In fact, I go to the beach to GET A TAN. (well, not today…it is currently -18 F outside).

I do that usually in a spaghetti strap top and shorts.

I would not be able to get much color if I covered up while at the beach!
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What is the motivation to get tanned?
 
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