E
eichenb2
Guest
Did you even read the posts? Do you take your religion and morality so lightly?
- Status
F
fannypanny
Guest
nup, not modest enough…lol
G
GraceDK
Guest
Okay. I will not argue with you. The tribe defined themselves as muslim. But it does not mean that they really are. You are right about that. Some sects call them selves Christians too and that does not mean they grasp even the essentials about Christianity.
As for your oppinions about my person, lets leave that aside and focus on the issue here shall we. We are both arguing our point with equal fervour, probably due to much pondering on this topic since we are both converts, so if I am a control freak, so are you.
Anyway.
I find your question about the Virgin Mary most interesting, however its not new. Simple answer is that Mary of Nazareth was dressed in the clothes which were normal for a woman in Judean culture at year 0. Had she been living today in Israel she would probably have worn skirts knee length or longer or loose pants, nicely shaped shirts and loose long hair. This is how most devout Jewish women dress today.
Had she been living in the diaspora, eg. Europe anno 2009 she would probably be wearing blue jeans and other ordinary clothes from our times. The purity of Mary would not be any less if she did.
Now tell me, was Adam immodest in the Garden? The fact that He was ashamed of his nudity was because of his altered state of mind after his sin, not because of his nudity in itself. He saw with other eyes…
Again, I urge you to look into cultural studies… Look at indian ladies eg. They are devout catholics many of them… but they show a rather big part of their belly. In other cultures this would be unthinkable… are these immodest?
Anyway… I think we are going in circles.
As I said. I am all for modesty. But I dont link certain fashion with the virtue of modesty the way that you do in your subjective post-modern thinking.
As for my ideas on Islam. You are right. I am rather sceptical about Islam and my words do sound biased. I have met good muslims who practiced Islam and who in many ways had what resembled Christlike wisdom… I have severel friends who are Muslims. They try to earn God’s favour and make themselves righteous in His eyes…
I also have a close friend who has fallen away from Islam and is hostile to all religion because of the hypocrisy he has witnessed.
I love these people as my dear friends. But reading the Quran and Hadith and seeing how these texts sanction violence, unhealthy submission of science, sexuality, and of women, I am very very sceptical yes. I believe Islam is a prison that only appears to represent the light. Mohammed was a false prophet and therefore was not sent by the Truth. The True Light is the Son of God Yeshua. As He says: “The one who the Son sets free is FREE indeed”. I wish with all my heart that my muslim friends experience the freedom and love they were created for in the Name of Jesus. If I did not love them I would not care. But I do love them and I do care. “What has the truth to do with the lie? the light with darkness” says St. John…
Salaam, Shalom and Peace to you
T
TLM08
Guest
In fact, there is nothing more effective to combat lustul thoughts after accidentally getting an eyeful of nice hair, pretty face, clear skin and curves than to fix your gaze in the general direction of a more …well… eh… less attractive individual.
So in my opinion, if one is trying to maintain purity of thought, these wonderful folks can be of great help.
G
Ghoti
Guest
Then in the name of purity of thought, I shall don my Speedo thong and go joggling down at Kew Beach next summer…In fact, there is nothing more effective to combat lustul thoughts after accidentally getting an eyeful of nice hair, pretty face, clear skin and curves than to fix your gaze in the general direction of a more …well… eh… less attractive individual.
So in my opinion, if one is trying to maintain purity of thought, these wonderful folks can be of great help.
…You’re welcome.
G
Ghoti
Guest
All joking aside…this is uncharitable, if one says that someone should be covered not for the sake of modesty, but because of perceived ugliness.
If someone should not appear in public in a particular garb because of their appearance, I say that no one should appear in that garb because it is obviously immodest.
Unless you are saying that fat or ugly people should bag their heads, or not go out in public at all.
Now that we’ve decided that we shouldn’t be exposed to muffin-tops, or cankles, or man-boobies, what’s next? Body hair? Varicose veins? Scars? Freckles? Male-pattern baldness? Birthmarks? Only the “Beautiful People” need go out in public anymore? The rest of us ugly mugs only dare darken our doorstep if clad in sackcloth burqas crying “Unclean! Unclean!”?
BTW, I realize a lot of these statements may be made in jest, but I think we must be mindful that, for example, both Grey’s Anatomy’s “Dr McDreamy” and The Elephant Man were made in the image and likeness of God.
E
eichenb2
Guest
Adam and Eve did not notice their nakedness prior to the fall. Then Original Sin entered and they were aware of their nakedness. Baptism wipes away this Original Sin. But awareness of nakedness remains. This is one of the reasons we wear clothes. By the way, I did not say you were a “Control Freak”. I suggested that the paradigm through which you view this issue is defined by the issue of control. I think this is only one perspective. Also, I think fashion is a dubious term in this discussion. I am not discussing whether something has ruffles, is teal, or matches with a certain type of shoes. Modesty is more concerned, in my opinion, with limits. In Islam, the orthodox view is that these limits are rigid and the onus is on women to conform. This is the way that Islam is actualized among most Muslims. Catholicism is a more nuanced view, in my opinion. I calls its adherents to limits based on love for ourselves and others, as children of God. Since, the fall, we are weak, so we observe limits, but much more flexibly. I think it is Law meeting Grace and it is beautiful when lived out. I don’t think Freedom means License. I think Freedom is the grace given to adhere to the spirit of the Law. My daughter has a book called “All Things Girl” by Theresa Tomeo. It deals with the issue of Bikinis for “Tweenagers” beautifully.
G
GraceDK
Guest
The problem Eichen is
Who sets the limits, who defines modesty, and based on what?
I have travelled alot from culture to culture and practiced different dress codes throughout my life. I found that my inner convictions changed according to outer influences.
Innocence is much linked to purity of mind.
I know people who have indulged in much sexual activity who dress modestly and others who are the most innocent of all virgins - I speak mainly here about two of my best friends - who wear sommerdresses I would never wear, simply because they have no clue that everyone else is not so pure of heart as they are. Innocense is not naivete, mind you… Its a great error to assume so.
I want to point out that many, many in the western world wear clothes that are fashionable and revealing not to turn on guys but to look pretty. The men in my culture are used to seeing women dressed like this… I believe even the Christian men here are not as easily aroused by it as some of the Catholic men who have been taught to respond like this…
Grace
Who sets the limits, who defines modesty, and based on what?
I have travelled alot from culture to culture and practiced different dress codes throughout my life. I found that my inner convictions changed according to outer influences.
Innocence is much linked to purity of mind.
I know people who have indulged in much sexual activity who dress modestly and others who are the most innocent of all virgins - I speak mainly here about two of my best friends - who wear sommerdresses I would never wear, simply because they have no clue that everyone else is not so pure of heart as they are. Innocense is not naivete, mind you… Its a great error to assume so.
I want to point out that many, many in the western world wear clothes that are fashionable and revealing not to turn on guys but to look pretty. The men in my culture are used to seeing women dressed like this… I believe even the Christian men here are not as easily aroused by it as some of the Catholic men who have been taught to respond like this…
Grace
E
eichenb2
Guest
I am not and have suggested that culture plays no part. It does! But like the nature vs, nurture argument, I think there has to be balance. There are not hard and fast guidelines. Also, you seem to think that you can tell what is in peoples hearts. You don’t know who is innocent and who is licentious. We can only judge what we see. If we are devout Christians (women or men), our dress, speech, and overall behavior will reflect that. For example, Nuns don’t wear bikinis in public. This issue is not that difficult to understand. Read the Bible and Catechism! It is not rocket science.
C
Catholic90
Guest
What is my motivation to get tanned, you ask.
Well, considering that it is currently -19 F where I live, when the sun DOES come out and the temperature does get above 60, I love to be outside soaking up as much sunshine as I can. Being in the sun boosts my spirits, makes me feel good, and boosts my vitamin D intake! It also helps clear up the inevitable adult acne I seem to get every winter. I LIKE it.
That is my motivation.
B
bobzills
Guest
Actually there are all kinds of modest swimsuits for women. For example:
metacafe.com/watch/1036919/swimsuit_for_muslim_women/
G
GraceDK
Guest
Thats my problem E.
When clothes is used to label people into categories. I have experienced that sad characteristic in Catholic American culture but never in my Catholic or Lutheran or Pentecostal Danish culture. Here we simply do not judge people on account of their attire unless its really extreme.
Why, we are not called to jugde. There is a vast number of reasons why men and women dress the way they do, having to do with climate, culture, time, fashion, beauty, and feeling comfortable. Thats why, when people venture into statements like:
“A woman who wears a bikini is not pious”, or “a man whose pants are hanging on his behind and showing underwear is a bad guy”, I cringe. All such statements and jugdements say so much more about the personality and expectations of the spectator than it does about the person who is being watched.
You say: “You seem to think you can tell what is in peoples hearts.”
This is not true, but I do think its more Christlike to think people have good intentions than that they are full of impurity, lust, and eagerness to seduce.
And yes… I do believe I know something about the women and men closest to me in my life here in my culture. The ones that confide in me. And their way of talking and thinking about modesty is vastly different from many of the posts I have seen here on this American Catholic forum. Now I do not refer to yours, but I have seen some pretty far out posts on this topic in the past.
My thought is that some people here stare themselves blind on what they wrongly perceive as the premeditated faults of others.
Its like if I went to church on sundays always thinking that the people who dont receive Christ on their tongue or kneel during the consecration were doing it out of spite, little faith, to annoy people etc. It would be unbearable if I walked through my days thinking such things about so many of my fellow human beings just because they dont think the same way as I do about certain things and act according to their own consience.
Grace
T
TLM08
Guest
I don’t think she meant to be uncharitable. It’s just as important for physically unattractive and obese people to cover up as the slim, fit and attractive should.
The sight of the naked human body, depending on it’s appearance can inspire a wide range of emotional as well as physical responses ranging from the magnetic pull of sexual response all the way to the opposite reaction of repulsion.
It’s a reality in nature and a fact of life.
G
Ghoti
Guest
My point. Covering up should be for the sake of modesty, not to shield someone from accidentally seeing an “ugly person”. And I agree it was not meant to be uncharitable – note my previous reply re: me in a speedo – just to be careful that such a sentiment does not veer into the uncharitable, with judgements made on the worthiness of a particular person’s looks.
That goes without saying. But those of us “to whom Nature has been unkind”, to put it euphemistically, don’t need to be reminded of it all the time. Many people have a poor self-image as it is – look at the prevalence of eating disorders, just as an example.
Indeed. I’m just sayin’.
W
warpspeedpetey
Guest
i definitely admire a woman who dresses modestly, it is extremely difficult to live chastely, in such a sexualized culture.
B
beenwashed
Guest
OK. I wear a two piece when i go swimming. I don’t wear one of those string things that haev little triangles to cover up my top and a small strip to cover my bottom. However, I do wear a two piece. And I don’t consciously wear it out swimming so some horny dudes will look at me. I like two pieces…just personal preferance. Do i think it’s sinful…no, becuase i’m not goign out trying to turn some dude on nor am i out there to make other women feel self-conscious, i’m jsut out there to have fun. Now I have had swimsuits that when they got wet they wouldnt’ stay on and i got rid of them. But seriously, like the other person said…it really has to do with culture and how you grew up. I married a man who grew up Southern Baptist and went to a Baptist college. I went swimmign with him one day at the schools pool and he said to me, “You are probably the first girl that has ever worn a two piece in this pool.” I was a little shocked. But then again, I grew up with a pool in teh backyard and we didn’t think of swimsuits as being sexual. They were more for just use. Although i have to say that when people put two pieces on their little 5 year old girls…that’s a little creepy.
B
beenwashed
Guest
Seriously…can’t take a joke?
B
beenwashed
Guest
YOU know…on a side note. When does being fat or overweight turn into gluttony?
E
eichenb2
Guest
Melanoma is a nice side benefit.
E
eichenb2
Guest
Fine. Your not being aware of it or desiring it does not change that guys are on.
- Status