How can we ever apologise for the Holocaust?

[drtwhite]

Unless you are or were a member of the German National Socialistic party (Nazi), an adherent of “Mein Kampf” as your bible surrogate, or now a member of some neo-Nazi organization, then the question is moot.

No one needs to “apologize” for something that he didn’t do; such would be illogical. We can empathize, strive to take social actions to preclude the rise of another ruthless and evil dictator (which apparently we don’t do well at all, if at all…), and offer comfort and solace to those so affected (not many first-hand victims left; so your time is limited–use it wisely!); this actions would be proper; but they don’t, in and of themselves, incur a “guilt” penalty. Were such the case, any bystander who renders first aid after an accident would then become susceptible for being blamed for that accident.

We sometimes use language incorrectly or inappropriately (example: “You have a cold today? I’m so sorry you do!”). By offering “sorrow” for that cold; do you infer that you caused it? In the same vein, no “apology” is needed for the Holocast; unless, of course, you precipitated it, participated in it, or condone it.

“Scientia vincit omnia”

DrTJW

 

[BelFarfalla]

I doubt that anyone here had anything to do with the Holocaust. So none of us share in the guilt nor need to apologize.

What we do need to do is to realize that there were many who died in the Holocaust. The Jews were only half of them. We also have to realize that it is not the only holocaust that has been perpetrated in human history.

The Holocaust in Germany was not even the only holocaust of WWII. Yet Jewish Holocaust is the only one most people know about. To allow the myth that the WWII Jewish Holocaust is a unique occurrence to go on is very dangerous. I have spoken to many people who believe that the Germans in WWII are the only people who have ever selected a group of people based on ethnicity or religion for extermination. It is dangerous to believe that the Jewish holocaust was a unique act carried about by a people who behaved in a unique manner.

The extermination of one group of people by another has been repeated many times in human history… there were many of these in the last 100 years alone… 10 million in the Ukraine during WWII, 3 million in Bangladesh in 1971, almost a million in Rwanda… just to name a few. The slaughter continues in Dafur today.

The fact seems to be that as long as it is not happening in their back yard, people do not care. I surely do not see anyone rushing to stop what is going on in Dafur. Nor do I see the world really ready to stop the threat of genocide from Iran.

 

[CCM08]

This is foolish guilt, and serves no purpose. First, the fault of the holocaust lies with those members of the NAZI party and German military that carried it out, and with no one else. Other European states do not have any responsiblity in the matter. Furthermore, people that were not even alive when it happened cannot and should not apologize to people that also were not alive when a historical even took place. The constant whining of Jewish groups, composed in bulk of people not even alive during the second world war, has become the fuel for modern anti-Semitic groups. It’s also been used to justify atrocities commited by Jews against others in Palestein.

Why is it the west is responsible for the holocaust but no one thinks the west in responsible for failing to remove the communists from eastern and central Europe?

 

[Morning_Star15]

This is foolish guilt, and serves no purpose. First, the fault of the holocaust lies with those members of the NAZI party and German military that carried it out, and with no one else. Other European states do not have any responsiblity in the matter. Furthermore, people that were not even alive when it happened cannot and should not apologize to people that also were not alive when a historical even took place. The constant whining of Jewish groups, composed in bulk of people not even alive during the second world war, has become the fuel for modern anti-Semitic groups. It’s also been used to justify atrocities commited by Jews against others in Palestein.

Why is it the west is responsible for the holocaust but no one thinks the west in responsible for failing to remove the communists from eastern and central Europe?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Valke2]

The constant whining of jewish groups? That’s your explanation for anti-semetism? And someone actually agreed with this?

 

[BelFarfalla]

The constant whining of jewish groups? That’s your explanation for anti-semetism? And someone actually agreed with this?

If you are speaking to somone in particular on here, then you might want to quote their post or at least address them by name. Otherwise we have no idea who you are speaking to… so your posts comes out as an accussation at everyone who has posted on this thread… and I’m sure you did not mean that.

 

[drifting_away]

I don’t understand why the Jewish Holocaust keeps getting such constant media attention 60 years after the fact, when other groups get ignored. Decendants of Jews who were victims still are suing for restitution, when millions of others who lost their lives and property to German aggression get ignored. Yes, that genocide was very horrific and dramatic, but not every non-Jew is responsible, no more than we can blame every Jew for the death of Jesus, or for the actions of every greedy Jewish businessman we encounter.

My only explanation for the fact that the Jewish holocaust is still the only one people think of is that Jewish people are rich, influential and have alot of clout on the world scene.

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

in case you haven’t noticed: saying anything ‘bad’ about Jews will get you hissed at.

 

[dolphinlove]

in case you haven’t noticed: saying anything ‘bad’ about Jews will get you hissed at.

2 words… Mel Gibson…

 

[Valke2]

If you are speaking to somone in particular on here, then you might want to quote their post or at least address them by name. Otherwise we have no idea who you are speaking to… so your posts comes out as an accussation at everyone who has posted on this thread… and I’m sure you did not mean that.

they should be the two posts directly above the reply.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t understand why the Jewish Holocaust keeps getting such constant media attention 60 years after the fact, when other groups get ignored. Decendants of Jews who were victims still are suing for restitution, when millions of others who lost their lives and property to German aggression get ignored. Yes, that genocide was very horrific and dramatic, but not every non-Jew is responsible, no more than we can blame every Jew for the death of Jesus, or for the actions of every greedy Jewish businessman we encounter.

My only explanation for the fact that the Jewish holocaust is still the only one people think of is that Jewish people are rich, influential and have alot of clout on the world scene.

you don’t see the irony in these two paragraphs?

 

[Morning_Star15]

The constant whining of jewish groups? That’s your explanation for anti-semetism? And someone actually agreed with this?

There have been equally big and even bigger genocides in history, Valke2. Some of the descendants of the people affected, like the Armenians, would be satisfied with the Turkish government even acknowledging that the Armenian Genocide happened under the Ottoman Turks. I don’t think it’s fair that there are Holocaust memorials all over the world, and constant commemorations of the Holocaust, when many other groups affected by genocide get barely a paragraph in a dusty history textbook. Let’s get some equality going here, as there’s no reason why the Jews should get special treatment.

If everyone were to start whining about what happened to their parents or ancestors (and there have been many bad things all over the world), and say that the current generation should feel guilt over it, even if they just happen to be descended from inhabitants of the same continent on which those tragic events occurred, where would that lead us? What would it accomplish? Maybe we could come up with a list saying who should get the most pity and who should feel the most guilt?

And some of us are getting a little sick and tired of Israel playing the Holocaust card every time someone tries to hold them accountable for their actions against the Palestinians and Lebanese.

 

[drifting_away]

There have been equally big and even bigger genocides in history, Valke2. Some of the descendants of the people affected, like the Armenians, would be satisfied with the Turkish government even acknowledging that the Armenian Genocide happened under the Ottoman Turks. I don’t think it’s fair that there are Holocaust memorials all over the world, and constant commemorations of the Holocaust, when many other groups affected by genocide get barely a paragraph in a dusty history textbook. Let’s get some equality going here, as there’s no reason why the Jews should get special treatment.

If everyone were to start whining about what happened to their parents or ancestors (and there have been many bad things all over the world), and say that the current generation should feel guilt over it, even if they just happen to be descended from inhabitants of the same continent on which those tragic events occurred, where would that lead us? What would it accomplish? Maybe we could come up with a list saying who should get the most pity and who should feel the most guilt?

And some of us are getting a little sick and tired of Israel playing the Holocaust card every time someone tries to hold them accountable for their actions against the Palestinians and Lebanese.

Exactly. No one is saying they hate Jews and thinks it’s great that they were wiped out in Europe. It’s ridiculous to equivocate the opinion that the Jewish Holocaust gets too much media airtime and apologies to being an anti-Semite.

 

[seekerz]

The best apology is to urge our government to do something now about current genocide in the world. It’s not enough to stand by and say nothing can be done then go count bodies, make documentaries and set up courts to try the aggressors (Anyone seen Hotel Rwanda?). Each time genocide is allowed to happen, we’re saying to the Holocaust victims: your lives were in vain, we learned nothing. If the UN won’t act in Darfur, then maybe we should. Did we even have a UN during WWII? That fact didn’t stop us.

 

[Cat]

I have a question for everyone.

What do people mean when they say that we should “do something” about Darfur, the Sudan, and all the other places where racial genocide is taking place?

I believe that the U.S. should have stepped in at the very beginning of Germany’s aggressiveness, that we should have sent in our strong troops and said, “Nein!” I believe this strong-arm approach would have stopped the war before it ever started, and thus stopped the Holocaust. There are historians who agree.

But unfortunately, people, especially in the United States, wanted “peace.” They wanted to believe, along with Neville Chamberlain, that Hitler was a great leader who was helping the Germans to recover economically from World War I. They wanted to believe that National Socialism wasn’t a threat to the Jews or any other race (even though Hitler made his intentions plain as wasser in Mein Kampf). They wanted to keep their kids safe instead of sending them overseas to die for some other nation.

I see so many parallels between the situation in Germany and the situation in Iraq, yet most of the United States says that we should get our butts out of there and stop interfering with a “peaceful” nation. They say that we committed a crime by invading the country and chasing Saddam Hussein off the throne and tracking him down and helping him get hung.

I believe we averted another Holocaust by disposing of Saddam Hussein. I believe that we should stay in Iraq until it is free of terrorist threats (or at least, as free of threats as the U.S. is) and the people are safe under a government of their choosing.

Wouldn’t it have been WONDERFUL if the U.S. or any other country had marched in and taken out Hitler at the very first sign that he was a tyrant?

And how about all those other countries suffering under brutal racist regimes? My personal opinion is that the U.S. ought to march in and take out the bad guys and stop the racist murders.

But I fear that other people would say, “NO! We don’t make a “pre-emptive strike” on a nation that does not pose a direct threat to us. We should live and let live.”

Some people say, “Just talk. Use diplomacy.” Well, a LOT of nations used diplomacy for Hitler, and he just laughed at them and tore up their treaties after they left. (There are films of him doing this.) When do you stop talking to monsters and start fighting them?

I think this is probably the major reason to remember the Nazi Holocaust–because it happened in recent memory in a totally civilized nation and we have a lot of factual information about it (thanks to the German attention to keeping detailed documents about EVERYTHING, with the help of IBM and the Hollerrith technology). We can LEARN from the Holocaust, and perhaps apply what we learn to current situations in the world.

So have we learned anything?

 

[Hellisreal]

Well, there are many people the US could have helped and still could and dont.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Well I guess there the resentment gets spread beyond the Nazi party because anti-semitism spread beyond Germany. It was rampant in Cambridge. The US limited the number of Jewish refugees. Canada likewise.

Notwithstanding that, Jews who think the Catholic Church was in any way complicit with the Nazis have a lot of waking up to do.

Pius 12 made literally dozens of radio and newspaper announcements denouncing the Nazis and anti-semitism in no uncertain terms when other leaders were keeping their mouths shut.

P12 sheltered 4000 Jews in the Vatican houses himself and ordered the Vatican printing presses to turn out travel documents for Jews wanting to leave Europe. Directives were given to all clergy to give shelter to Jews and to help them escape. Many clergy obeyed and lost their lives as a result.

850 000 Jews were rescued directly as a result of the Church’s intervention. The Chief Rabbi of Rome who knew exactly what had been going on converted to Catholicism due to the strength of the witness of so many Catholics risking their lives to rescue Jews.

And let us remember that Catholics were also targetted by the Nazis. Catholics lost their lives too. Along with gypsies, Slavs, the mentally ill.

Now back to the OP. I worked at a Jewish summer camp. One night we were all woken up by loudspeaker voices aggressively telling us to get out of bed. When we did we were pushed down the road by counsellors in Nazi uniforms.

Um… I knew it was fiction, but I was scared. And I had the overwhelming urge to ‘rescue’ five or six Jewish kids and hide them in the boat house.

I think we can befriend Jews by remembering the Shoa and by working to prevent other genocides. Canada, if you remember, did this in Rwanda as much as we possibly could. The UN however was not listening. Nor was Clinton.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

(Anyone seen Hotel Rwanda

Oh this is so frustrating to me. More to the point has anyone read Lt Gen Dallaire’s book Shake Hands with the Devil? This is a true account of what happened and the cost to him and those working there to try in vain to prevent the massacres. Why is this book being suppressed? Even Oprah did not even mention it years later when she suddenly discovered that the genocide was still going on. There is no excuse for that narrowness!

 

[seekerz]

I have a question for everyone.

What do people mean when they say that we should “do something” about Darfur, the Sudan, and all the other places where racial genocide is taking place?

Well, it’s obvious talk has failed in the Darfur scenario, so force is probably necessary and it may be that an international consensus on that might be easier to achieve than was possible in the case of Iraq.

 

[Shoshana]

Thank you for a good topic.

I believe the best way we can make reparation is, in the words of Elie Wiesel in Night is to “Never forget.”

When Jesus established the Eucharist, he told his disciples, “Anamnesis,” which means more than just “remember.” It means “make present again.”

I think we should seek “anamnesis” toward the Jews and others who perished in the Holocaust.

Each of us must do whatever we can to assure that we and others will never forget. Read books and articles, paint a picture, watch a movie, write an article, attend a memorial ceremony, be friends to Jewish people, listen to music, visit the Holocaust Museum, say a prayer–whatever you can do to do “anamnesis.”

Pray to St. Edith Stein, a brilliant Jewish woman who converted to Christianity, then Catholicism, and became a Carmelite nun. She and the sisters in her convent were gassed in Auschwitz. There is a play called “Edith Stein”–if you can, go see it, or if you can, produce the play in your city.

As my contribution to help people “never forget,” I’ve written a teen novel called The White Rose Affair. It will hopefully (?) be published this summer.

Excellent! Please let us know about your book, OK? When i went to Israle the first time, I went through the Yad Vashem…and then th ebuilding for the children who suffered through this atrocity. The music was haunting, the candles in there were haunting, the picture of young children there were haunting…I cried, and cried and cried and begged the Lord to forgive us all of our sins. I came out very sober…