How can we ever apologise for the Holocaust?

[xmydreamsfadex]

there have been a few politicians that think we, the USA, fought on the wrong side during the WW2. I guess with my German background I think the bigger threat in the world at that time was atheist Communism considering “National Socialism wasn’t for export.” Maybe for the time in 1941 we should have smashed the Russians, since by that time they already wiped out more than 50 million people, then turned our focus to Hitler. Let’s not forget, however, that in 1933, later abandoned by WW2, the 3rd Reich and the Zionists worked out ‘The Trasfer Agreement’ to send the Jews to Palestine. The Zionists, at one time or another, could have saved Jewish lives but, for their reasons, didn’t want to.
just my two cents.

 

[Valke2]

There have been equally big and even bigger genocides in history, Valke2. Some of the descendants of the people affected, like the Armenians, would be satisfied with the Turkish government even acknowledging that the Armenian Genocide happened under the Ottoman Turks. I don’t think it’s fair that there are Holocaust memorials all over the world, and constant commemorations of the Holocaust, when many other groups affected by genocide get barely a paragraph in a dusty history textbook. Let’s get some equality going here, as there’s no reason why the Jews should get special treatment.

If everyone were to start whining about what happened to their parents or ancestors (and there have been many bad things all over the world), and say that the current generation should feel guilt over it, even if they just happen to be descended from inhabitants of the same continent on which those tragic events occurred, where would that lead us? What would it accomplish? Maybe we could come up with a list saying who should get the most pity and who should feel the most guilt?

And some of us are getting a little sick and tired of Israel playing the Holocaust card every time someone tries to hold them accountable for their actions against the Palestinians and Lebanese.

Normally, I’d chalk up language like “special treatment” as just a result of not paying attention. I have to say that I have trouble even reading through your posts. Perhaps you could provide some examples of Israel using the “holocaust card”.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Normally, I’d chalk up language like “special treatment” as just a result of not paying attention.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. If you’re denying that the Holocaust gets more media attention and more recognition than any other genocide, please point out a genocide to me that gets the same amount of recognition and media attention. I’m just pointing out that maybe the world should also think about other genocides in history (not to mention current ones like in Darfur) instead of just focusing on the Holocaust (or maybe even recognize that millions of non-Jews died in Nazi concentration camps during WWII as well). It’s not that I have a problem with the Jews, I just don’t think it’s fair that one genocide should get so much attention, while others get hardly any at all. Some, like the Armenian Genocide, don’t even have the official recognition of the Turkish government.

Perhaps you could provide some examples of Israel using the “holocaust card”.

I honestly don’t have the time to pull up specifics, and I think that would bring this thread too far off-topic. All I’ll say that in general, Israel chalks up all of their actions against its neighbours as self-defence out of fear of another Holocaust happening at the hands of these neighbours. Anyway, I don’t want to get off-topic by getting into debates over the Middle Eastern conflict - that would be best left for another thread. That’s all I have to say about it for this thread.

 

[Valke2]

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying.

I was referring to your use of the term “special treatment” which was what the nazis called the extermination of the Jewish population.

It’s not that I have a problem with the Jews, I just don’t think it’s fair that one genocide should get so much attention, while others get hardly any at all. Some, like the Armenian Genocide, don’t even have the official recognition of the Turkish government.

I agree. It’s been more than 50 years since the majority of European Jewry was exterminated. I just want to apologize on behalf of all surviving Jews for all the attention the systematic extermination of my people still receives.

I honestly don’t have the time to pull up specifics, and I think that would bring this thread too far off-topic.
All I’ll say that in general, Israel chalks up all of their actions against its neighbours as self-defence out of fear of another Holocaust happening at the hands of these neighbours.

I understand. You only have enough time for the broadest of general accusations/summations about the Israeli government. I wonder where Israel got the crazy idea that its neighbor’s want to wipe it off the face of the map.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t think it’s fair that there are Holocaust memorials all over the world, and constant commemorations of the Holocaust, when many other groups affected by genocide get barely a paragraph in a dusty history textbook.

I know you don’t think its fair, but you know how we love to cheat. BTW, just for fun I googled “Darfur genocide” and got over 3 million 2 hundred thousand hits.

Rwanda genocide received 2,850,000

“Jews genocide” received 2,900,000.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

We must never forget the Holocaust. But we must never forget the millions of others who also died in the holocaust. The Catholic priests, missionaries, homosexuals, dissenters, and millions more who died freeing Europe from the Axis.

 

[CCM08]

The constant whining of jewish groups? That’s your explanation for anti-semetism? And someone actually agreed with this?

When you’re trying to sale a negative image of Jews and can supply plenty of media showing Jews making a living on the holocaust industry it makes your sale a lot easier. The holocaust happened, it was a terrible historical crime. Where is all the attenion for the 100 million Chinese people that died in Mao’s “revolution?” Where is the attention for the millions that died in Soviet gulags and reeducation centers? Where is the attention for the Armenians that parished at the hands of the Turks? How far back do we have to go, here? Should the Italians be ringing their hands and apologizing for all the nasty things the Roman Empire did as it was conquering the known world?

The holocaust is a historical event, it should be remember for what it was. However, there are other atrocities that deserve being remembered as well. There also comes a point when historical events have to be accepted as historical events and it becomes time to move past it. It’s little wonder that when one group of people (Jews in this case) comprised in bulk of people that were not alive during the second world war make demands for something that wasn’t done to them against a group(s) of people that equally weren’t alive when it was done the reaction will be negative. It’s the reverse of Stalin’s imfamous, “if one person dies it’s a tragedy, if a thousand people die it’s a statistic” line. We would never accept the notion that if someone’s parent or grandparent committed a crime and having died unpunished one of their children or grandchildren must pay the price. Yet when it involves groups it becomes an acceptable practice.

 

[drifting_away]

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. If you’re denying that the Holocaust gets more media attention and more recognition than any other genocide, please point out a genocide to me that gets the same amount of recognition and media attention. I’m just pointing out that maybe the world should also think about other genocides in history (not to mention current ones like in Darfur) instead of just focusing on the Holocaust (or maybe even recognize that millions of non-Jews died in Nazi concentration camps during WWII as well). It’s not that I have a problem with the Jews, I just don’t think it’s fair that one genocide should get so much attention, while others get hardly any at all. Some, like the Armenian Genocide, don’t even have the official recognition of the Turkish government.

I honestly don’t have the time to pull up specifics, and I think that would bring this thread too far off-topic. All I’ll say that in general, Israel chalks up all of their actions against its neighbours as self-defence out of fear of another Holocaust happening at the hands of these neighbours. Anyway, I don’t want to get off-topic by getting into debates over the Middle Eastern conflict - that would be best left for another thread. That’s all I have to say about it for this thread.

Well said. I agree, there’s no point in discussing this issue any further. Most Jews love to wallow in their collective victim status, and will defend their right to do so, even as they sit in their ivory towers and drive their Mercedez Benzes. Meanwhile, our Armenian brothers and sisters have been largely ignored by the world. They were forced to disperse to various nations by the Turks, and were not given a homeland or compensated in any way, nor has the Turkish government acknowledged this historical wrong, even as it pleads to be admitted to the EU. Neither were they the subject of countless Hollywood generated movies and TV specials. And the Armenians are but one example of many.

 

[drifting_away]

We must never forget the Holocaust. But we must never forget the millions of others who also died in the holocaust. The Catholic priests, missionaries, homosexuals, dissenters, and millions more who died freeing Europe from the Axis.

Don’t forget one million gypsies who were targeted and destroyed by Hitler. Ah, but they can’t sue for reparations since they were poor, wandering people without anything to be restored to them, since they had nothing to start with. Not very interesting subjects for our sympathy…

 

[Cat]

I just want to say that I have made certain to mention in my novel the other groups besides Jews who were killed in the Nazi Holocaust. I agree that we should never forget ALL the victims of the Holocaust.

One of the reasons why the Nazi Holocaust receives so much attention is that there is a lot of information about it. When I was a child in the 1960s, the Saturday Evening Post published information about the Holocaust, and this was the first that many average Americans knew of the atrocities.

Since then, hundreds, probably thousands of books, novels, and children’s novels have been published about the Holocaust, not to mention movies, documentaries, plays, musicals (Sound of Music, Producers), and articles. When I was in 8th grade, the only books I had about Hitler and the 3rd Reich were adult books. Now there are hundreds of good novels and non-fiction works for kids.

For many reasons, there simply isn’t that much information about some of the other genocides, many of which are still taking place. God have mercy and protect those in danger.

I think–and this is just my opinion–one of the reasons why there isn’t much information about current genocides is that might be dangerous to produce and distribute information.

When I was writing my novel, I included a plotline about a certain society that existed in the early part of the 20th century and I assumed was long gone. In a rewrite, I did some more research about this society and discovered that this society is still around and has a “hit list” of people who have “offended them.” On their website, they publish names, addresses, and phone numbers of those who produce material that opposes their racist viewpoint or that disparages Hitler.

I was terrified and I rewrote my plot.

Some of you might say that I am a coward, but I did not want to see the innocent suffer because of me. My book is about a synchronized skating team. There are over 400 synchro skating teams in the U.S. and more throughout the world. I could visualize my little novel becoming a means by which these teams suffer. I won’t let that happen. As it is, my book still condemns hate groups, but I do not name a specific hate group in the novel.

Remember, I was writing about a hundred-year old society. Perhaps I am wrong, but I’m guessing that the penalties for providing information about current racial crimes are very real and scary. Since learning about this, I wonder how many crimes of vandalism, burglary, rape, and even murder are not just random, but were perpetrated by this society seeking “revenge.”

It’s no wonder we don’t have as much information and publicity about these places and people. Hopefully in the future, we will.

 

[drifting_away]

Or maybe the reason is the obvious: that the American media is dominated by persons of Jewish descent who promote subject matters and themes that promote their cultural and political worldview. Is this a Jewish conspiracy? Not an organized one, but merely a natural outcome of the fact that Jews have always traditionally worked in the entertainment business, and are successful at doing so.

 

[Cat]

I also want to propose another reason why the Nazi Holocaust is so publicized.

To Christians, the Jews are the people of our Savior, Jesus. In the Bible, God uses many names for Israel expressing His love and devotion to His chosen people.

One of the names God uses is “the apple of my eye.”

Now I know that many of these names have double meanings and refer not only to the Jews, but the Jesus Himself, and also to the Church.

But the fact is, the Jews were the patriarchs of our Savior. Mary, our Mother, was a Jew, as was Joseph her husband, and the Apostles. All of the Patriarchs were Jews. The Old Testament is the story of the nation of Israel.

We as Christians honor Jews and hold them in a special place as the people used by God to bring about His plan of salvation.

I think for this reason, many Christians continue to remember the Holocaust as a time when “the apple of God’s eye” was attacked and almost destroyed. The Holocaust for Christians is a reminder that God will not allow His children to be utterly wiped out from the earth.

I am NOT saying that the other people and races who are being destroyed are “less” than the Jews. I agree that we need to protect ALL people groups in the world. We need to love even our enemies, as Jesus taught.

I am a proponent of the U.S. sending military troops into any place in the world where atrocities against races and religious groups are occuring, and restoring order and peace. I think the lesson that we should learn from the Holocaust is to NOT mind our own business, but to butt in and help before millions are killed.

But I know that most people in the U.S. disagree strongly with me and say we should stay out of other nations. I personally believe that the U.S. will be held accountable for ignoring the suffering in the world. I am grateful that many religious and humanitarian groups work to help the oppressed peoples in many of these beseiged areas, and I would like to urge all of us to support those groups.

 

[Cat]

drifting away, I think you need to be careful.

Your comments about Jews running the entertainment business are generalizations not necessarily founded upon truth. It may seem that way, but for every Jewish person in the entertainment world, you’ll find a non-Jew.

I learned about the gypsies, homosexuals, the “righteous Gentiles”, the mentally-ill, etc. through reading material about the Jews and the Nazis.

I’ve read and seen a lot of material about the Holocaust, and **I can testify that almost without exception, not only are the 6 million Jews mentioned, but also the 6 millon other peoples who were murdered by the Nazis. **

The Jews themselves honor the “righteous Gentiles” with monuments in Israel.

Many of the Holocaust websites contain stories about Christians and others who were massacred. One of the websites I visited contained a stirring account of Saint Maximillian Kolbe.

I’ve attended Holocaust memorials, and almost always, the non-Jews who perished are honored, too.

I don’t see the Jews withholding the information about the others who perished. On the contrary, I see that they make sure that these others are publicized, too.

 

[drifting_away]

If, as you say, for every Jew there is a non-Jew, then you prove my point. People of Jewish descent are totally over-represented in the entertainment industry in proportion to their percentage of the total population of the United States. Now, what percentage of the entertainment industry do you think there is of devout Christians? I’ll bet the bank that it’s lower than that of the general population.

This is no secret and it’s no crime, no more than most basketball players are Black. Certain professions are dominated by certain ethnic groups. But it also has a direct influence on what movies and shows are produced by the media, whether you want to admit it or not. That’s not a racist statement, it’s a demographic reality at play.

 

[Morning_Star15]

I was referring to your use of the term “special treatment” which was what the nazis called the extermination of the Jewish population.

Please understand that just because two words were given a specific connotation by one group doesn’t mean that everyone who uses them afterwards also intends for them to have that same specific connotation. Do you really think that everyone who speaks of someone getting “special treatment” means that this someone is getting sent to a Nazi concentration camp? I was referring to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust getting more attention than victims of other genocides, or non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

I agree. It’s been more than 50 years since the majority of European Jewry was exterminated. I just want to apologize on behalf of all surviving Jews for all the attention the systematic extermination of my people still receives.

Please show me where in any of my posts I said that Jews shouldn’t get any attention. I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t twist my words around.

I understand. You only have enough time for the broadest of general accusations/summations about the Israeli government. I wonder where Israel got the crazy idea that its neighbor’s want to wipe it off the face of the map.

And to avoid getting wiped off the face of the map, Israel should just go ahead and wipe its neighbours off the map instead? If you want to debate this, please start another thread. I’m just pointing out that Israel uses the excuse of self-defence from what someone might do to justify some pretty bad actions.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Cat:

I think–and this is just my opinion–one of the reasons why there isn’t much information about current genocides is that might be dangerous to produce and distribute information.

It was certainly dangerous for Lt Gen Dallaire about Rwanda. But he blew the whistle anyway.

Yet I strongly suspect that very few people on these forums have read his book Shake Hands with the Devil. Why do I believe that? Because no one but me ever mentions the book. Yet that book is the definitive history of the Rwandan genocide.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

drifting away:

If, as you say, for every Jew there is a non-Jew, then you prove my point. People of Jewish descent are totally over-represented in the entertainment industry in proportion to their percentage of the total population of the United States.

Drifting away? How on Earth is this proving your point?

This is what you are saying:
Premise: For every Jew there is a non-Jew.
Conclusion: Therefore Jews are over-represented.

Is your point that there be no Jews in the entertainment industry? I think so. Because that is the only way you can make any sense out of what you have said.
drifting away:

Now, what percentage of the entertainment industry do you think there is of devout Christians? I’ll bet the bank that it’s lower than that of the general population.

It’s time you started backing up your opinions with facts.
drifting away:

This is no secret and it’s no crime, no more than most basketball players are Black.

If it’s no crime then what’s is the problem you are having with it?
drifting away:

But it also has a direct influence on what movies and shows are produced by the media, whether you want to admit it or not. That’s not a racist statement, it’s a demographic reality at play.

Please provide us with some science for your demographics.

 

[Valke2]

Well said. I agree, there’s no point in discussing this issue any further. Most Jews love to wallow in their collective victim status, and will defend their right to do so, even as they sit in their ivory towers and drive their Mercedez Benzes. Meanwhile, our Armenian brothers and sisters have been largely ignored by the world. They were forced to disperse to various nations by the Turks, and were not given a homeland or compensated in any way, nor has the Turkish government acknowledged this historical wrong, even as it pleads to be admitted to the EU. Neither were they the subject of countless Hollywood generated movies and TV specials. And the Armenians are but one example of many.

WHy does it seem to always be a “new member” who comes out with the anti-semetic comments? A non-jew starts a thread about the holocaust.and it ends up being a forum to express disgust at Jews for “whining” about the holocaust. I believe this pretty much says it all.

 

[drifting_away]

I seriously doubt that any university would authorize a study of the demographics of the US media based on religious background, but a cursery glance at the heads of major networks and production companies will show a disporportionate amount of Jewish names. Again, I don’t think this is an organized conspiracy, but a cultural reality. For one thing, a major media center is in New York City, which is a cultural and intellectual center for American Jewry. Many of these people also migrated to the Los Angeles area, another large media center, especially for the film and television industry.

I did find some sites on the internet with multiple examples of Jewish media moguls, but unfortunately, there ARE anti-Semites who like to blame the Jewish media for every social ill there is, and I don’t share that view. But it is an undeniable fact that Jewish people are often very talented and creative, and are over represented demographically in certain career fields, including science, medicine, entertainment, law, and business.

That, in my opinion, is the obvious (and understandable) reason why the Jewish holocaust is given so much attention.

 

[Morning_Star15]

I know you don’t think its fair, but you know how we love to cheat. BTW, just for fun I googled “Darfur genocide” and got over 3 million 2 hundred thousand hits.

Rwanda genocide received 2,850,000

“Jews genocide” received 2,900,000.

Maybe if you googled “Holocaust” you’d get more hits. But if you can tell me that there are more memorials, museums, documentaries, and international days of remembrance for the Rwanda genocide and the Darfur genocide (or any other genocide for that matter) than there are for dedicated to the Holocaust, that would be much more convincing.