How can we ever apologise for the Holocaust?

[seekerz]

To my mind, blind adherence to any cause (religious, political etc) that condones the use of atrocities against other human beings is always terrorism regardless of what label it is given or wherever it occurs.

The problem with regard to Israel, it’s friends and it’s enemies, is that people tend to lose all sense of objectivity. I couldn’t believe the childish logic (of the type I wouldn’t accept from my own kids) used to support some of the conflicts that have occurred in that part of the world. To my mind, this has happened on both sides.

We in the West, who should be able to bring some calm and sanity to the situation, are only too happy to jump right into the melee like irresponsible teenagers. Not even reporting about events (or even the images shot) there can be relied upon as valid.

*Unbelievable *(in every sense of the word) is my only description for the whole mess.

 

[thechrismyster]

Given the immense human misery of the poor souls who lived in the terrible events leading up to it, not to mention the heinious evil of the event itself, an act of mass murder, which we were apathetic to; how can we ever apologise enough for our role in the Holocaust?

Before anyone says ‘ah but I had no part in it’, I believe all Europe had a role in it by being apathetic to the plight of suffering Jews. How can we ever espect forgivness or repay the debt?

i never apologize for what i didn’t do. the nazis should be the only ones to apologize, if any are still alive. otherwise, we should never forget what happened. it’s an atrocity. but none of us alive had a hand in it.

it’s like saying we should apologize for slavery or the inquisition. COMPLETE bull. if i didn’t do it, i’m not apologizing.

how can we ever apologize for something we didn’t do?

 

[angelusm]

I Am A Polish Catholic And I’m Not Gonna Apologise At All!!! My Nation Did A Lot To Help Jews, So Did Pope Pius Xii. Jews Tell Horrible Lies Because They Hate Both Polad And Catholic Church. Who’s Guilty? Germans. Precisley German Occultists. They Hated Catholic Church And There’s Absolutely No Reason Why Cc Should Apologise For Holocaust. Please Remember - Hitler And His Friends Were Occultists (not Catholic!!!) - Satanists In Fact. Don’t Believe In Anticatholic Lies! Read About It First.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Which Holocaust!?

The extermination of the Jews was (not able to put into words how horrible it was)it was just evil, humanity at it’s worst to say the least.

How will we explain our inability to stop the holocaust of our lifetime to God. Abortion! 44 million and counting!!

 

[Usagi]

There was no Catholic anti Jewish hate radio, not during WWII and not ever.

The mention of “Catholic hate radio” probably refers to the radio programs of Father Charles Coughlin in the 1930s. See here for an article on Fr. Coughlin and his opinions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

While the Fr. Coughlins of the world certainly did not represent the entire Church at the time, saying that there was never such a thing as “Catholic anti-Jewish hate radio” is incorrect.

Usagi

 

[chosen_people]

Since when has the US government, run by protestants who were grossly anti-Catholic, ever set policy based on anything Catholic?
During WWII, the Catholic Church saved more Jews from the Holocaust then any other group working to that end… More then the red cross, more then all other Christian religious organization put together. They are attributed with having saved around 800,000 jews for certain death. During WWII the Catholic Church spent millions (if not billions) of its own money to hide, house and feed thousands of Jews. They provided fake baptismal papers, fake religious orders papers, etc to Jews who were then smuggled out of Europe at the expense of the Catholic Church.
There was no Catholic anti Jewish hate radio, not during WWII and not ever. It’s unbelievable that while the Catholic Church fought to save Jews at the expense of its own people, the church is not made a villain.

If you’ve never heard of Father Charles E. Coughlin and Catholic hate radio its time you did. You’ll have no trouble finding information on the web. Millions tuned in every week to hear his diatribes against the Jews during the 1930’s.

I presume you know of Hitler’s Concordat with the Catholic Church (1933) - the accord under which the Catholic Church acquiesced to the third riech.

I presume you know that Hitler didn’t invent western christian antisemitism, you have to look to the Catholic Church for that.

I presume you know that Hitler was a Catholic whose early speeches were filled with scriptual references of doing the Lord’s work and throwing the money lenders (i.e. Jews) from the temple.

I presume you know that Hitler’s edicts of forcing the Jews into ghettoes, making them wear a yellow star of david to identify themselves as Jews, his stripping them of all legal and civil rights were merely the revitilization of Catholic church edicts against the Jews such as those enforced by Pius ix, the kidnapper of Edgardo Mortara, the Pope who referred to the Jews as dogs, who now is a candidate for sainthood.

I presume you know that some five hundred misguided Jews who had converted to Catholicism and had become priests and nuns somehow found themselves out of the convents and were exterminated in nazi concentration camps as Jews.

I presume you know of the deafening silence of Pius xii who refused to condemn the Nazi’s and their treatment of Jews on his international radio broadcasts.

I presume you know that Pius xii only started to take action to save Jews after it was clear that the Nazi’s would lose the war.

I presume you know of the refusal of the Vatican today to allow access to Vatican archives by researchers concerning Pius xii and that he like Pius ix is a candidate for Catholic sainthood.

You would be correct in claiming that many Catholics including members of the Catholic clergy acted to save Jews and some paid for their heroic acts with their lives. The greatest tragedy is that these righteous souls were the exception and not the rule.

That having been said it is a specious argument to divorce thousands of years of Catholic antisemitism and the events of the holocaust. To do so would be to learn nothing and to understand nothing.

 

[bones_IV]

If you’ve never heard of Father Charles E. Coughlin and Catholic hate radio its time you did. You’ll have no trouble finding information on the web. Millions tuned in every week to hear his diatribes against the Jews during the 1930’s.

Cardinal Pacelli removed him from the radio
chosen people:

I presume you know of Hitler’s Concordat with the Catholic Church (1933) - the accord under which the Catholic Church acquiesced to the third riech.

More ad hominem attacks.

The concordat is not agreeing w/ Nazism. It was to ensure that Catholics could practice their religion. Hitler had no intention of honoring that concordat anyway. Do you even know what a concordat is?
chosen people:

I presume you know that Hitler didn’t invent western christian antisemitism, you have to look to the Catholic Church for that.

More ad hominem propaganda.
chosen people:

I presume you know that Hitler was a Catholic whose early speeches were filled with scriptual references of doing the Lord’s work and throwing the money lenders (i.e. Jews) from the temple.

Hitler wasn’t a practicing Catholic and stopped attending mass when he was a teenager.
chosen people:

I presume you know that Hitler’s edicts of forcing the Jews into ghettoes, making them wear a yellow star of david to identify themselves as Jews, his stripping them of all legal and civil rights were merely the revitilization of Catholic church edicts against the Jews such as those enforced by Pius ix, the kidnapper of Edgardo Mortara, the Pope who referred to the Jews as dogs, who now is a candidate for sainthood.

Comparing one of our popes to a Nazi is quite laughable. You’re most likely racist yourself.
chosen people:

I presume you know that some five hundred misguided Jews who had converted to Catholicism and had become priests and nuns somehow found themselves out of the convents and were exterminated in nazi concentration camps as Jews.

Irrelevant.
chosen people:

I presume you know of the deafening silence of Pius xii who refused to condemn the Nazi’s and their treatment of Jews on his international radio broadcasts.

Evidence please?
chosen people:

I presume you know that Pius xii only started to take action to save Jews after it was clear that the Nazi’s would lose the war.

Another attempt to discredit the papacy.
chosen people:

I presume you know of the refusal of the Vatican today to allow access to Vatican archives by researchers concerning Pius xii and that he like Pius ix is a candidate for Catholic sainthood.

It’s called right to privacy. Even if you researched the archives you still wouldn’t be satisfied.
chosen people:

You would be correct in claiming that many Catholics including members of the Catholic clergy acted to save Jews and some paid for their heroic acts with their lives. The greatest tragedy is that these righteous souls were the exception and not the rule.

That having been said it is a specious argument to divorce thousands of years of Catholic antisemitism and the events of the holocaust. To do so would be to learn nothing and to understand nothing.

We are not denying that antisemitism had been taught. But it is not representative of the Catholic Church’s teaching. Thank you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

chosen people:

The United States and Canada with the help of Catholic hate radio also closed their borders.

I don’t believe what you are saying about “Catholic hate radio.” The Pope published dozens of statements on the radio and in the newspapers before and during the War condemning the Nazis specifically for their anti-Jewish policies. What part of that is “hate radio”?

He also directed Catholics to help Jews to escape the Nazis – at all costs to their own Catholic lives. He himself gave safe harbour to 4000 Jews in his own Vatican houses. 850 000 European Jews were rescued as a direct result of Catholics hiding them from the Nazis.

Those Catholics were recognized by Israel as being Righteous Ones. The Chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism because of the sacrifice of Catholics at the risk of their own lives for the sake of the Jews.

But what is the point of pointing out the history to you? You are not interested in history. You are only interested in misrepresenting the Church no matter how much effort is required to twist things to match your singleminded agenda. God bless you anyway.

What you say about Canada btw is true. A young man on another thread is unaware of what happened to Canadian Jews in WW2 and about the restrictive immigration policy of Canada which worked against rescuing Jews endangered by the Nazis. If you have any responsible and credible information on that, I would appreciate you posting the links. If you are just going to go on another hate jag, then forget it.

BelFarfalla:

During WWII, the Catholic Church saved more Jews from the Holocaust then any other group working to that end… More then the red cross, more then all other Christian religious organization put together. They are attributed with having saved around 800,000 jews for certain death. During WWII the Catholic Church spent millions (if not billions) of its own money to hide, house and feed thousands of Jews. They provided fake baptismal papers, fake religious orders papers, etc to Jews who were then smuggled out of Europe at the expense of the Catholic Church.

And the printing press for these fake papers was housed in the Vatican itself!

 

[Usagi]

I agree with the general sentiment of the thread that most of us alive today have nothing personally to apologize for when it comes to the Holocaust, and that the best way to commemorate that atrocity is to keep people mindful of it and act to prevent/stop similar acts now and in the future.

However, I am sickened by the casual anti-Semitism that has bubbled to the surface in some posts. Reminding people that the Holocaust was not the only genocide in history is one thing, but when people seem to bring it up mainly to complain about the “whiny Jews” (or even “greedy Jewish businessmen” ) who allegedly keep the Holocaust in the spotlight, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can’t imagine what it’s like for Valke2 and our other Jewish posters to read such comments.

Usagi

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Usagi:

The mention of “Catholic hate radio” probably refers to the radio programs of Father Charles Coughlin in the 1930s.

Oh Coughlin! That guy! Couglin was disciplined was he not for breaking from Church teaching on the Jews? Was he excommunicated?

 

[bones_IV]

I just have face the fact that those who accuse the Catholic Church of being the bull work of Nazism are either ignorant of history or choosing to ignore the facts.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

There’s Absolutely No Reason Why Cc Should Apologise For Holocaust.

The Church itself has no reason to apologize for the Shoa. However, JP2 did apologize for the rebellion of some Catholics in paying no attention to Pius12 who directed that Catholics help Jews to escape the Nazis. Also JP2 was expressing a regret that even one Jew was killed as the result of the abominable efforts on the part of the Nazis to exterminate them.

 

[bones_IV]

The Church itself has no reason to apologize for the Shoa. However, JP2 did apologize for the rebellion of some Catholics in paying no attention to Pius12 who directed that Catholics help Jews to escape the Nazis. Also JP2 was expressing a regret that even one Jew was killed as the result of the abominable efforts on the part of the Nazis to exterminate them.

Exactly my point.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

chosen people:

I presume you know of the deafening silence of Pius xii who refused to condemn the Nazi’s and their treatment of Jews on his international radio broadcasts.

A downright flat-out falsehood. You have absolutely no excuse for posting this kind of unfounded attack.

Where do you get off posting such errant fluff?

If you didn’t hear or read Pius 12’s unequivocal condemnation of Hitler’s anti-Jewish policies, then I strongly recommend that you get a hearing aid and eye glasses. No one else was as forthcoming, clear, and persistent as P12 before and during the War. Get over yourself.

 

[chosen_people]

I Am A Polish Catholic And I’m Not Gonna Apologise At All!!! My Nation Did A Lot To Help Jews, So Did Pope Pius Xii. Jews Tell Horrible Lies Because They Hate Both Polad And Catholic Church. Who’s Guilty? Germans. Precisley German Occultists. They Hated Catholic Church And There’s Absolutely No Reason Why Cc Should Apologise For Holocaust. Please Remember - Hitler And His Friends Were Occultists (not Catholic!!!) - Satanists In Fact. Don’t Believe In Anticatholic Lies! Read About It First.

Jews returning to their homes in Poland after the war were murdered in Polish Catholic pogroms. This should also help to answer about the necessity for the state of Israel over and above the fact that no nation has more of an historical and moral right to their homeland than do the Jews,

 

[chosen_people]

Oh Coughlin! That guy! Couglin was disciplined was he not for breaking from Church teaching on the Jews? Was he excommunicated?

Coughlin was diciplined and removed from the radio only after America entered the war. At that point he became too much of an embarrasment.

 

[chosen_people]

A downright flat-out falsehood. You have absolutely no excuse for posting this kind of unfounded attack.

Where do you get off posting such errant fluff?

If you didn’t hear or read Pius 12’s unequivocal condemnation of Hitler’s anti-Jewish policies, then I strongly recommend that you get a hearing aid and eye glasses. No one else was as forthcoming, clear, and persistent as P12 before and during the War. Get over yourself.

Pius xii international radio messages were recorded and their transcripts exist. There are endless Catholic apologist sites explaining why he chose to remain silent and how this was supposedly benificial to the Jews. You on the other hand claim that he was “uequivocal in his condemnations”. I’ll accept a single unequivocal quote condemning nazi atrocities against the Jews from his yearly christmas broadcasts.If in fact your correct you should have no trouble finding the quote on the internet.

 

[estesbob]

Pius xii international radio messages were recorded and their transcripts exist. There are endless Catholic apologist sites explaining why he chose to remain silent and how this was supposedly benificial to the Jews. You on the other hand claim that he was “uequivocal in his condemnations”. I’ll accept a single unequivocal quote condemning nazi atrocities against the Jews from his yearly christmas broadcasts.If in fact your correct you should have no trouble finding the quote on the internet.

The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas… he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all… the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism… he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.

New York Times December 25, 1941

*Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks…

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.*

Albert Einstein December 23, 1940

• “A study of the words which Pope Pius XII has addressed since his accession,” noted the Times, “leaves no room for doubt. He condemns the worship of force and its concrete manifestations in the suppression of national liberties and in the persecution of the Jewish race*.”

The London Times October 1, 1942

I told him [the Pope] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews…We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church."

Moshe Sharett, who would become Israel’s first Foreign Minister and second Prime Minister." , 1945

“*We share in the grief of humanity…When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.” *

Golda Meir 1958

Before beginning a concert of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Leonard Bernstein called for a minute of silence “for the passing of a very great man, Pope Pius XII.” 1958

 

[bones_IV]

Chosen people, I suggest you stop with your anti-Pius XII rants and please check your sources. It just goes to show you how uneducated you are. Tell me, why would Pius hide Jews in Castel Gandolfo if he was a Nazi sympathizer? Tell me that.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

How can we ever apologise for the Holocaust? Saying you’re sorry is easy. You just do it.

I’m sorry for all the horrible things that have occurred in human history before I was born, but more importantly for the sins I have personally committed in my lifetime.

“Leave the past to God’s mercy.
Leave the future to God’s providence.
Live in the here and now as God’s gift
To us, that’s why it is called the present.”
– Fr. John Corapi