How can we ever apologise for the Holocaust?

[BelFarfalla]

This is a weak argument, in my opinion.
Pius XII said little but acted properly. It is my understanding that during the war the monasteries, churches and other Catholic institutions were opened to receive as many refugees as possible.
What would public condemnation of the Nazis have accomplished that the combined Allied military forces were not already attempting? What could the Pope have added to the torrent of propaganda that was already pouring forth from the White House and Downing Street?

There was once instance in which the Catholic Clergy of Holland protested against the Nazi plan to relocate the Jewish population to camps. The Nazi’s, being the sick people there were, decided not to relocate the Jews. Instead they killed 40,000 Jews on that day.
Pope Pius XII was writing a speech to blast Hitler and his Nazi’s when the news of this massacre reached him. His people say that upon hearing the news he stopped writing his speech and burned is right then and there. He remarked that if the clergy protesting led to the death of 40,000 certainly a scathing speech from the Pope would lead to the death of 200,000 Jews. So he never gave that speech or any other harsh public rebuke of the Nazi’s again. Instead he worked behinds the scene… saving hundreds of thousands of lives.

There are times when actions speak louder than words, and Pius XII’s actions were heard above the din of bombs and bullets.

But today too many people only want to find reasons to hate the catholic Church and making up stories abut Pope Pius XII during WWII is just too easy for them.

Finally, in light of the rise of Communism and the enslavement of much of post-war Europe with the loss of untold millions of human lives and immeasurable human misery, I believe the case can be made that Communist Russia posed the greater threat to mankind than Nazi Germany. In light of the prophecies of Fatima, perhaps the pope had good reason to pray for Russia’s defeat at the hands of German military forces. This would have been the lesser of two evils…
Hope this helps.

Pope Pius XII was did believe that Communism was a greater threat. After all the Communists held holocausts of Christians that far out numbered the numbers of Jews who were killed by Hitler. IN the Ukraine alone 10 million Christians were starved to death. The Pope is after all the leader of the Christian world. No one should fault him for worrying about his people first. Anyone who expect anything less is not living in reality. But even with that Pope Pius XII put the entire Catholic Church and the lives of millions of Catholics at risk by his massive efforts to help save Jews from the Holocaust.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Thank you God for all the good and often forgotten men and women who were good souls and who helped Jews to survive the atrocious conditions of WW2.

No kidding. Until recently I did not know much about Pope Pius XII. I’d heard a lot about him being Hitler’s Pope. Then recently I had the opportunity to address the issue to some people who were really trashing the man. I did a lot of research. My eyes were opened. After I showed the people the evidence of what he did do they too changed their minds.

Since them I am a huge fan of Pope Pius XII. He was a remarkable man who was the leaders of hundreds of millions of Catholics through one of the worst things the world has ever gone through. And thorough all of it he lived surrounded by the enemy… first in Germany and then in the Vatican in Rome. Yet he was able to keep the Church intact, save the lives of around 800,000 Jews, and still lead the Catholic faithful. He was the right man for the time.

It angers me to see people trash him and spread the lies they do about him.

 

[jimmy]

Given the immense human misery of the poor souls who lived in the terrible events leading up to it, not to mention the heinious evil of the event itself, an act of mass murder, which we were apathetic to; how can we ever apologise enough for our role in the Holocaust?

Before anyone says ‘ah but I had no part in it’, I believe all Europe had a role in it by being apathetic to the plight of suffering Jews. How can we ever espect forgivness or repay the debt?

When the Jews apologize for killing Jesus and the early Christians (or atleast for their apathy) I will apologize for apathy shown by Europeans at the time of the Holocaust. It is not our fault that the Germans killed the Jews. It was a tragic event but it is not our fault. You can’t apologize for something that you were not responsible for. The Catholic Church did more to help the Jews than anyone. All I can say is that I am sorry that the Jews had to suffer through the holocaust. Are the Jews going to apologize for the deaths of millions of Christians(EO and Catholic) in the first half of the 20th century? As I recall they never voiced opposition to the communists killing tens of millions of Christians.

 

[Valke2]

When the Jews apologize for killing Jesus and the early Christians (or atleast for their apathy) I will apologize for apathy shown by Europeans at the time of the Holocaust. It is not our fault that the Germans killed the Jews. It was a tragic event but it is not our fault. You can’t apologize for something that you were not responsible for. The Catholic Church did more to help the Jews than anyone. All I can say is that I am sorry that the Jews had to suffer through the holocaust. Are the Jews going to apologize for the deaths of millions of Christians(EO and Catholic) in the first half of the 20th century? As I recall they never voiced opposition to the communists killing tens of millions of Christians.

should I laugh or should I cry?

 

[Sixtus]

Jimmy posted:

When the Jews apologize for killing Jesus and the early Christians then I will apologize for apathy shown by Europeans at the time of the Holocaust. It is not our fault that the Germans killed the Jews. The Catholic Church did more to help the Jews than anyone

I do not deny the Catholic Church did more than anyone. Neither do I deny that many Catholics themselves perished in the death camps for helping Jews.

I am arguing that European culture as a whole is complicit.

The holocaust did not occur in a vaccuum. It had the support of most of Europe.

Actually the Jews were not alone in ‘killing Jesus’. I helped kill Him too…by my sins and disobedience to the Father

 

[BelFarfalla]

Jimmy posted:

I do not deny the Catholic Church did more than anyone. Neither do I deny that many Catholics themselves perished in the death camps for helping Jews.

I am arguing that European culture as a whole is complicit.

The holocaust did not occur in a vaccuum. It had the support of most of Europe.

Actually the Jews were not alone in ‘killing Jesus’. I helped kill Him too…by my sins and disobedience to the Father

The early Christians were persecuted by the Jews. They killed many of the early Christians. There were progroms agasint the Christians carried out the the Jews. This is the basis of the anti-semistism among the early Christians.

Hate and violence breed hate and violence that is generally visited on our future generations. It needs to stop somewhere.

 

[BelFarfalla]

should I laugh or should I cry?

Please explain why ou would either laugh or cry at his post?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Given the immense human misery of the poor souls who lived in the terrible events leading up to it, not to mention the heinious evil of the event itself, an act of mass murder, which we were apathetic to; how can we ever apologise enough for our role in the Holocaust?

Before anyone says ‘ah but I had no part in it’, I believe all Europe had a role in it by being apathetic to the plight of suffering Jews. How can we ever espect forgivness or repay the debt?

• 1. Many of us can say “Ah but I had no part in it”, simply because we were not even born
• 1. which prompts questions about corporate guilt; If Catholics today are answerable for the Shoah, that makes us answerable for earlier anti-Jewish evils; but if we have to bear the guilt of these things, what good has the Cross been ? Can Catholics who find pogroms etc. damnable & wicked be saddled with the guilt of them ? I don’t know
• 1. but - 1 is not an adequate reply, because it’s the sort of thing people say when they are trying to shift blame onto others; which is what Adam did to Eve: it’s not how a* Christian* should react, IMHO: for Jesus did the very opposite, as the Cross shows.
• 1. Forgiveness can be given, but not expected - as C.S. Lewis points out somewhere, foregiveness includes a recognition that what is done, is not excusable
• 1. As to the Shoah in particular - I think all we can do is commit this to God, precisely because it was so great an evil.
• 1. ISTM that we can learn from it just how evil our acts can be, & to what they can lead. How far this means that “theology after Auschwitz” has to be different from that before, I don’t know; FWIW, conversion is a continual need, & always has been: so that at least is not changed.
• 1. Because it is an evil, it cannot be put into rational terms, or not beyond a certain point, if only because evil is irrational of its very nature; which is another reason that we sinful human beings are not able to take the burden of it on ourselves.
• 1. I think this is where Grace is of such tremendous importance. The CC is holy, **not **because Catholics are, but because Christ is. As to the sins of the Church, ISTM that it is His Holiness & Grace that counter-act our sinfulness. If our sins were the crucial thing, so that the Church was qualified to do His work in so far as she is holy because of those in her & not because of Him, the Church would have been done for a long time ago: it is because His Grace continually revives, renews, & recreates her so that her all too human inadquacies do not & cannot have the decisive word, that she is not done for.
• 1. To clarify 5. - I don’t think the Shoah can be treated as in a class of its own (though this a widespread view); Nazism was far from being the only or even the bloodiest 20th century tyranny. I think it is a great evil that Chinese Communism is accepted as just one regime among others. Pius XI was right to call Communism a “satanic plague” - that is exactly what it was & is.

 

[jimmy]

Jimmy posted:

I do not deny the Catholic Church did more than anyone. Neither do I deny that many Catholics themselves perished in the death camps for helping Jews.

I am arguing that European culture as a whole is complicit.

The holocaust did not occur in a vaccuum. It had the support of most of Europe.

Actually the Jews were not alone in ‘killing Jesus’. I helped kill Him too…by my sins and disobedience to the Father

The Jews were alone in killing James the apostle and many early Christians. I will not argue about the Jews not being alone in killing Jesus even though it is a debatable question depending on how you want to answer it.

And the Jews were part of the culture that murdered millions of Christians under communist rule. When they apologize for their complicitness I will apologize for mine.

Germany and a few other countries may have supported the holocaust. It was not the whole of Europe, it was not even the majority.

We are not responsible in any way for what happened to the Jews. I can not apologize for something that I am not responsible for and Christianity is not responsible for. It was not CHristian culture to kill Jews. It was atheistic philosophy that led to this.

Neither will I take blaim for European culture seperated from my faith. If I am Catholic and the Catholic Church does what it can to save Jews it is not my blaim that the rest of Europe remained silent. I have no connection to Europe in 1930’s seperated from the spiritual realm. It is simply a past event when you decide to speak of the culture apart from the Church.

 

[jimmy]

should I laugh or should I cry?

If you expect people to apologize for things they haven’t done to you I guess you should cry. The Jews are just as complicit in the murder of the early Christians as Christians are in the murder of Jews in the holocaust. Jews have still not apologized for their murder of the early Christians. I don’t expect you to apologize for something your ancestors did, so why should I apologize for what some Christians did in former generations? It is an event of the past. You get over it. I have no resentment for the Russians who killed tens of millions of Christians nor do I have resentment for the Jews who killed Christians, the Romans who killed Christians or any other person who killed Christians. I take pride in knowing that my ancestors had the strength to die for their God. I don’t expect an apology because there is no reason for me to even want an apology. It is narcicistic to expect people to apologize for their ancestors sins against your ancestors.

 

[chosen_people]

When the Jews apologize for killing Jesus and the early Christians (or atleast for their apathy) I will apologize for apathy shown by Europeans at the time of the Holocaust. It is not our fault that the Germans killed the Jews. It was a tragic event but it is not our fault. You can’t apologize for something that you were not responsible for. The Catholic Church did more to help the Jews than anyone. All I can say is that I am sorry that the Jews had to suffer through the holocaust. Are the Jews going to apologize for the deaths of millions of Christians(EO and Catholic) in the first half of the 20th century? As I recall they never voiced opposition to the communists killing tens of millions of Christians.

At last an honest voice. The Jewish Communist Christ Killers undermineing and destroying Christians and Christianity. There in a sentence is Hitler’s Mein Kampf, Catholic hate radio of the thirties, the antisemitism today of the SSPX. There is the attitude and the belief behind the Holocaust.

 

[Kaninchen]

My family emerged from ‘Catholic Europe’ and I was brought up with very deep suspicion of anything and anybody Catholic – a suspicion that was somewhat ameliorated by the discovery that a greater proportion of Protestants voted Nazi than did Catholics – somewhat but not a lot because a couple of thousand years of living amongst Catholics took its toll on my ancestors’ talent for forgiveness and that’s a hard legacy for anybody to leave behind.

I suspect that it’s still all too close for people to deal with – heaven’s there are people who appear (to this Jewess) to believe that the only thing that followers of the Catholic Church have ever done wrong (crusades, inquisitions, conquistadors etc) amounts to collateral damage from over-enthusiastic cuddling. Who is to expect apologies for all this? Are apologies important or is the most that we can expect that, excluding those few who hang on to some of the old myths about Jews and see history as two thousand years of Jewish persecution of Christians, people realize that it really does have to stop?

Meanwhile, as a European, I look around me and it’s seems to me that one of the major effects of the Second World War is rarely mentioned – it broke the power of the Catholic Church in Europe. The old, supremely confident, Catholic world that my grandparents’ talked about has gone – the Nazis and Fascists nearly destroyed us but they threw old Europe into the melting pot while doing so. If the Catholic Church cooperated with them – and there were places where that certainly was the case – it would seem to me that it paid a heavy historic price

 

[bones_IV]

My family emerged from ‘Catholic Europe’ and I was brought up with very deep suspicion of anything and anybody Catholic – a suspicion that was somewhat ameliorated by the discovery that a greater proportion of Protestants voted Nazi than did Catholics – somewhat but not a lot because a couple of thousand years of living amongst Catholics took its toll on my ancestors’ talent for forgiveness and that’s a hard legacy for anybody to leave behind.

I suspect that it’s still all too close for people to deal with – heaven’s there are people who appear (to this Jewess) to believe that the only thing that followers of the Catholic Church have ever done wrong (crusades, inquisitions, conquistadors etc) amounts to collateral damage from over-enthusiastic cuddling. Who is to expect apologies for all this? Are apologies important or is the most that we can expect that, excluding those few who hang on to some of the old myths about Jews and see history as two thousand years of Jewish persecution of Christians, people realize that it really does have to stop?

Meanwhile, as a European, I look around me and it’s seems to me that one of the major effects of the Second World War is rarely mentioned – it broke the power of the Catholic Church in Europe. The old, supremely confident, Catholic world that my grandparents’ talked about has gone – the Nazis and Fascists nearly destroyed us but they threw old Europe into the melting pot while doing so. If the Catholic Church cooperated with them – and there were places where that certainly was the case – it would seem to me that it paid a heavy historic price

The Catholic Church cooperated with the Nazis and Fascists? Tell that to Albert Einstien, Golda Meier, or Pinkas Lapide!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Kaninchen:

Who is to expect apologies for all this?

Whether you bothered to find out what you are talking about or not, the Jews did get apologies (plural) from the Catholic Church.

Kaninchen:

…see history as two thousand years of Jewish persecution of Christian…

This is empty rhetoric. What on earth do you mean by it? Can you explain so that we can follow your line of reasoning, or is the unfounded accusation sufficient for your purposes?

Kaninchen:

Meanwhile, as a European, I look around me and it’s seems to me that one of the major effects of the Second World War is rarely mentioned – it broke the power of the Catholic Church in Europe.

Naziism sprung from The Reformation. You really ought to read some history.

Kaninchen:

If the Catholic Church cooperated with them – and there were places where that certainly was the case – it would seem to me that it paid a heavy historic price.

You have strong opinions and zero information to back up those opinions. Naughty naughty.:tsktsk:

 

[jimmy]

At last an honest voice. The Jewish Communist Christ Killers undermineing and destroying Christians and Christianity. There in a sentence is Hitler’s Mein Kampf, Catholic hate radio of the thirties, the antisemitism today of the SSPX. There is the attitude and the belief behind the Holocaust.

None of them have had any affect on me. Never listened to thirties radio, never went to the SSPX and never would and never read Mein Kampf. I am no anti-semite but if you expect me to apologize for something someone else did I will not. I don’t blaim what happened in Russia on the Jews but you can not deny that some of the people involved in Russia were Jews. If none of them were Jews then none of the Germans were Christians.

If you expect an apology from me for the holocaust you are simply narcicistic. You can only see the wrongs that have been done to you and ignore what you have done.

 

[chosen_people]

None of them have had any affect on me. Never listened to thirties radio, never went to the SSPX and never would and never read Mein Kampf. I am no anti-semite but if you expect me to apologize for something someone else did I will not. I don’t blaim what happened in Russia on the Jews but you can not deny that some of the people involved in Russia were Jews. If none of them were Jews then none of the Germans were Christians.

If you expect an apology from me for the holocaust you are simply narcicistic. You can only see the wrongs that have been done to you and ignore what you have done.

Please read this article from a Catholic website written by a Catholic

crisismagazine.com/december2002/feature5.htm

 

[jimmy]

Please read this article from a Catholic website written by a Catholic

crisismagazine.com/december2002/feature5.htm

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. They are pointless and unprovable. I don’t even read them. As I said, I do not blame the Jews for what happened in Russia but you can not deny that some of the people involved were Jews.

This thread is about whether we should apologize for the holocaust, irrelevant of whether many Christians did good to help Jews. It is about the culture of Europe. Even though Marx may have denounced his faith he is still relevant. Hitler killed many Christians as well as Jews. He was no Christian. Just as Hitler was part of a Christian nation who is responsible for fascism, Marx was a Jew who is responsible for communism.

 

[Valke2]

The Catholic Church cooperated with the Nazis and Fascists? Tell that to Albert Einstien, Golda Meier, or Pinkas Lapide!

Shortly after WWII, many Jews assumed that whenever a local priest or bishop or nun did something to help the Jews, they were acting on the Church’s instructions. They did not understand that many of these acts were done by individuals, often because (perhaps) they were not satisfied with what the Church was doing. Just as many people praised President Bush immediately after 9/11 only to have other opinions about his behavior as time goes on, many Jews have come to view Pius XII in a different light then he was seen immediatley after WWII.

I personally don’t think the record is clear one way or the other. There is much evidence of anti-semetism within the Church in the years prior to and during WWII and there is much evidence of actions that were taken to help the Jews.

Christians who want to defend their faith and their pope will see it one way and Jews who are angry at the Church will see it another way.

 

[bones_IV]

Shortly after WWII, many Jews assumed that whenever a local priest or bishop or nun did something to help the Jews, they were acting on the Church’s instructions. They did not understand that many of these acts were done by individuals, often because (perhaps) they were not satisfied with what the Church was doing. Just as many people praised President Bush immediately after 9/11 only to have other opinions about his behavior as time goes on, many Jews have come to view Pius XII in a different light then he was seen immediatley after WWII.

I personally don’t think the record is clear one way or the other. There is much evidence of anti-semetism within the Church in the years prior to and during WWII and there is much evidence of actions that were taken to help the Jews.

Christians who want to defend their faith and their pope will see it one way and Jews who are angry at the Church will see it another way.

Really? Try this one for size.

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=78133

You still haven’t made your case. Since it’s obvious you’re an anti-catholic.

 

[Valke2]

And on the other hand:

In 1939 Pius XII ended his predecessor’s ban on Action Française, an organization described by some authors as virulently anti-Semitic and anti-Communist.

He did not publicly condemn the expulsions and forced conversions to Catholicism perpetrated on Serbs by Pavelić

In May 1942, Kazimierz Papée, Polish ambassador to the Vatican, complained that Pius had failed to condemn the recent wave of atrocities in Poland; when Cardinal Secretary of State Maglione replied that the Vatican could not document individual atrocities, Papée declared, "when something becomes notorious, proof is not required.

when asked by French Marshal Philippe Pétain if the Vatican objected to anti-Jewish laws, Pius responded that the church condemned anti-semitism, but would not comment on specific rules.[65] Similarly, when Pétain’s puppet government adopted the “Jewish statutes,” the Vichy ambassador to the Vatican, Léon Bérard, was told that the legislation did not conflict with Catholic teachings.

In October 1941 Harold Tittman, a U.S. delegate to the Vatican, asked the pope to condemn the atrocities against Jews; Pius replied that the Vatican wished to remain "neutral,"reiterating the neutrality policy which Pius invoked as early as September 1940

In January 1943, Pius would again refuse to publicly denounce the Nazi violence against Jews, following requests to do so from Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, and Bishop Konrad von Preysing of Berlin

etc…

All this is from Wikipedia, but when I have more time I could site other sources.