How can we ever apologise for the Holocaust?

[Kaninchen]

Whether you bothered to find out what you are talking about or not, the Jews did get apologies (plural) from the Catholic Church.

Whether you bothered to find out what you are talking about or not, it’s what the thread is, supposedly, about.

This is empty rhetoric. What on earth do you mean by it? Can you explain so that we can follow your line of reasoning, or is the unfounded accusation sufficient for your purposes?

No, the above is empty rhetoric because you’re not familiar enough with anti-Semitic sources to comment seriously.

Naziism sprung from The Reformation. You really ought to read some history.

Anybody who imagines a complex phenomenon is mono-causal is probably the kind of person who imagines others to be unread.

You have strong opinions and zero information to back up those opinions. Naughty naughty.:tsktsk:

You need something for jerking-knee syndrome. Try to have a nice day.

 

[Kaninchen]

The Catholic Church cooperated with the Nazis and Fascists? Tell that to Albert Einstien, Golda Meier, or Pinkas Lapide!

Might I suggest that you start by looking at the most blatant (Slovakia and Croatia) move on to the traditional-autocracy with fascistic decoration (Spain, Portugal) to the “better Hitler than Blum and we’ve been shouting about Jews so long there’s no reason to stop now” (France) . . . .

There is more to the history of Europe than non-resolvable arguments and quotes about what Pius XII did or did not do.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I can’t post this entire article here. Since the fall of the Soviet Union many of their former spies have come forward and told of the espionage and disinformation propaganda that the Soviets were involved in. One of them was an plan to discredit and destroy the Catholic Church because they were a great opponent of communism. The anti-Semitic lies about Pope Pius XII stem of a 1962 play, The Deputy, put on by Piscator in West Berlin. Piscator was a devoted communist who was more the glad to produce a play to destroy the reputation of the Catholic Church, and more specifically Pope Pius XII.
*
*Of course anti-Catholics are more then glad to grab onto this trash and use it for their own purposes.

article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTUzYmJhMGQ5Y2UxOWUzNDUyNWUwODJiOTEzYjY4NzI=

I was at the center of Moscow’s foreign-intelligence wars, I myself was caught up in a deliberate Kremlin effort to smear the Vatican, by portraying Pope Pius XII as a coldhearted Nazi sympathizer. Ultimately, the operation did not cause any lasting damage, but it left a residual bad taste that is hard to rinse away. The story has never before been told.

BATTLING THE CHURCH
In February 1960, Nikita Khrushchev approved a super-secret plan for destroying the Vatican’s moral authority in Western Europe. The idea was the brainchild of KGB chairman Aleksandr Shelepin and Aleksey Kirichenko, the Soviet Politburo member responsible for international policies. Up until that time, the KGB had fought its “mortal enemy” in Eastern Europe, where the Holy See had been crudely attacked as a cesspool of espionage in the pay of American imperialism, and its representatives had been summarily jailed as spies. Now Moscow wanted the Vatican discredited by its own priests, on its home territory, as a bastion of Nazism.

Eugenio Pacelli, by then Pope Pius XII, was selected as the KGB’s main target, its incarnation of evil, because he had departed this world in 1958. “Dead men cannot defend themselves” was the KGB’s latest slogan.

…

Pius XII had served as the papal nuncio in Munich and Berlin when the Nazis were beginning their bid for power, the KGB wanted to depict him as an anti-Semite who had encouraged Hitler’s Holocaust. The hitch was that the operation was not to give the least hint of Soviet bloc involvement. The whole dirty job had to be carried out by Western hands, using evidence from the Vatican itself.

…
INFILTRATING THE VATICAN
…
During 1960-62, the DIE succeeded in pilfering hundreds of documents connected in any way with Pope Pius XII out of the Vatican Archives and the Apostolic Library. Everything was immediately sent to the KGB via special courier. In actual fact, no incriminating material against the pontiff ever turned up in all those secretly photographed documents. Mostly they were copies of personal letters and transcripts of meetings and speeches, all couched in the routine kind of diplomatic language one would expect to find. Nevertheless, the KGB kept asking for more documents. And we sent more.

THE KGB PRODUCES A PLAY
In 1963, General Ivan Agayants, the famous chief of the KGB’s disinformation department, landed in Bucharest to thank us for our help. He told us that “Seat-12” (Soviet code name for Pope Pius XII) had materialized into a powerful play attacking Pope Pius XII, entitled The Deputy, an oblique reference to the pope as Christ’s representative on earth. Agayants took credit for the outline of the play*, and he told us that it had voluminous appendices of background documents put together by his experts with help from the documents we had purloined from the Vatican. Agayants also told us that The Deputy’s producer,* Erwin Piscator, was a devoted Communist who had a longstanding relationship with Moscow. In 1929 he had founded the Proletarian Theater in Berlin, then sought political asylum in the Soviet Union when Hitler came to power, and a few years later had “emigrated” to the United States. In 1962 Piscator had returned to West Berlin to produce The Deputy.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Shortly after WWII, many Jews assumed that whenever a local priest or bishop or nun did something to help the Jews, they were acting on the Church’s instructions. They did not understand that many of these acts were done by individuals, often because (perhaps) they were not satisfied with what the Church was doing. Just as many people praised President Bush immediately after 9/11 only to have other opinions about his behavior as time goes on, many Jews have come to view Pius XII in a different light then he was seen immediatley after WWII.

I personally don’t think the record is clear one way or the other. There is much evidence of anti-semetism within the Church in the years prior to and during WWII and there is much evidence of actions that were taken to help the Jews.

Christians who want to defend their faith and their pope will see it one way and Jews who are angry at the Church will see it another way.

Pope Pius XII, directly after becoming pope, gave direct written instructions to all Catholic Clergy to open their doors to help and save Jews. He authorized the Vatican funds to be used for this. Futher, in the year before he became pope he wrote a letter instructing all Catholics that they were forbidden to aid or support the Nazi’s in any way. This was letter, as well as 2 previous ones, were passed out to all catholics in Germany at the time.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Please read this article from a Catholic website written by a Catholic
crisismagazine.com/december2002/feature5.htm]
No one is saying that anti-Semitism did not and does not exist. You are missing a few points however… many Christians were anti-Semitic… yes even a huge portion of Protestants were and still are… Pope Pius XII was not anti-Semitic and since the ordered all Catholics to help save the Jews and authorized the use of Catholic assets to do this… the Church was not anti-Semitic nor pro-Nazi. Any catholic who aided the Nazis and who aided in the mistreatment of Jews was defacto-excommunicated… meaning that their actions automatically caused them to be excommunicated.
You of course don’t care about this because your only goal is to destroy the Catholic Church.

 

[BelFarfalla]

And on the other hand:

In 1939 Pius XII ended his predecessor’s ban on Action Française, an organization described by some authors as virulently anti-Semitic and anti-Communist.

In 1939, following the Spanish Civil War and a revival of anti-communism in the Catholic Church, Pope Pius XII decided to end the condemnation. Thereafter, the Action Française claimed that the condemnation was decided for political purposes.
It’s not secret that Pope Pius XII rightfully believed that the greatest threat to Catholics was communism. Again let’s not forget that Pope Pius was the leader of hundreds of millions of Catholics. Their welfare and the preservation of the Catholicism were his first obligation. Why would anyone thing anything else?
This was not long after the Spanish civil war, a war of communism. The communists revolutionaries killed tens of thousands of Catholics… They were sometimes killed Soviet style… a bullet to the neck and then dumped in mass graves. A total of 85,940 Catholics were shot, burned, buried alive, pushed off cliffs, thrown down mineshafts, horribly tortured and otherwise murdered in Red Spain during the reign of what the New York Times called the “Loyalist” or “democratic” government. Of those, 7,937 of these were Catholic clerics, including 283 nuns, many whom were raped first.
These Catholics were told “Join the peoples militias or die,” they refused to join so they ended up in mass graves.
So on the one hand there were the communists hell bent on urging Catholicism from the earth… having already kills tens of millions of Catholics and Orthodox. On the other hand were the anti-Semitic groups. Apparently Pope Pius XII chose to un-ban a group that was swarm to preserve Catholic lives. War and political upheaval makes for some pretty strange bed fellows sometimes.
I am often amused by people who sit in the comfort of the home, with no war waging around them, with no history changing decision to make…. And then criticize the decision and actions of people who often had to act and make decisions as bombs dropped around them, or while their brethren were being slaughtered. How lucky you are not be in the shoes of Pope Pius XII. What decisions would you have made? Who would you have saved ? I have no doubt what side the anit-Catholics (even those on this thread) would have chosen… any side that destroy Catholics and this of course would have led to the death of huge numbers of Catholics as it did in the Soviet Union and in the Spanish revolution. But hey… they are only Catholics after all.

 

[BelFarfalla]

In this post I’m not making conclusions one way or the other…. But instead just posting some of the things that occurred at the time that influenced people at the time……

What was the real Jewish involvement in Russian/Soviet Communism?

There were many Jews in the founders of Communism…

**Karl Marx was a descendant of a family of rabbis. His name was really Levi.

**Trotsky was born Lev Davidovich Bronstein, of a Jewish family from the Ukraine

Lev Kamenev, the early Bolshevik leader who later went on to become a leading member of the Politburo, was born with the surname Rosenfeld.

Grigori Zinoviev, head of the Petrograd Soviet, was born with the surname Apfelbaum; and many other famous Communists of the time, such as Karl Radek, Lazar Kaganovich; and Moses Urtisky, (the head of the Cheka) who all changed their names for reasons similar to that of Trotsky. There is also strong evidence to suggest that Lenin himself was of Jewish ancestry through his mother’s side of the family.

The Bolshevik’s Party’s Central Committee chairman, Yakov Sverdlov, was also Jewish - and it was he who gave the order to the Jewish Soviet secret policeman, Yurovsky, to murder the Tsar - Yurovsky personally carried out this order.

The large Jewish role in the Russian revolution, combined with the fact that Marx had been born a Jew, was manna from heaven for the European anti-Semitic movement, and the link between Jews and Communism was exploited to the hilt, particularly by Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist (Nazi) movement in Germany during the 1920’s.

It was not only in Germany that the association of Jews with Communism was made: all over the world Jews became associated with radical political movements, sometimes justifiably so, other times not. Nonetheless, the presence of so many Jews in the creation of the Soviet Union played a massive role in justifying anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe prior to, and with, the rise of Adolf Hitler.

Directly after the First World War, there were another three specifically Jewish Communist revolutions in Europe itself:

• the German Jew, Kurt Eisner, led a short lived communist revolution in Munich, Bavaria from November 1918 to February 1919 (at the same time that Adolf Hitler was an unknown soldier in that city - the effect of being a first hand witness to a Jewish led Communist led revolution helped to cement Hitter’s anti-Communist and anti-Jewish feelings);

• the short lived Sparticus uprising in Berlin (September 1918 to January 1919) led by the German Jews, Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg; and

• the short lived Communist tyranny in Hungary led by the Jew, Bela Kun (Cohen), from March to August 1919.

**Jews in the Later Soviet Union

**Jews retained their leading roles in Soviet society until growing anti-Semitism within the Communist Party itself led to a change in policy. Trotsky was the first major Jewish casualty: he split with Stalin over the issue of international socialism and the need to spread the revolution: he was forced into exile in 1929. He was then assassinated in Mexico City in 1940, allegedly by a Stalinist agent.

By the middle 1930s, Stalin had started purging the Soviet Communist Party of other important Jews. The period immediately following the end of the Second World War and the creation of the state of Israel saw another rise in Soviet anti-Semitism: by 1953, Stalin had started purging all Jews in the Soviet hierarchy who were also Zionists.

The Communists, quite correctly, saw Zionism as Jewish nationalism and contrary to the interests of an international socialist brotherhood. Many leading Russian Jews were also fervent Zionists: and it was this group that was then targeted for persecution, and who became famous throughout the rest of the lifetime of the Soviet Union as the victims of Soviet anti-Semitism.

Zionism, as an expression of Jewish separatism was declared a crime against the Soviet state, and Zionist organizations were forced to close down their operations inside the Soviet Union.

 

[Kaninchen]

Goodness, it’ll be The Protocols next!

 

[BelFarfalla]

Given the above post…

Many European christians saw Jews as a large driving force in Communism and hence the deaths of millions of Catholics.

Just as many today keep claiming that Hitler was Catholic and hence try to blame his horror on Catholisim, many tied (and still tie) the horrors perpetrated by Soviet Communism on Jews. The Russian/Soviet communists specifically attacked Othrodox and Catholics, slaughtering tens of millions. Until much later, the Communists did not express anti-semitism… probably because a large percentage of their leaders were jewish. The early soviet union even outlawed anti-semitism

Hitler was not a practicing Catholic and his actions early on meant that he excommunicated himself from the Church. In the same light the Jews who were the early leaders of Commuism were most likely not practicing Jews.

A lot of time is spent asking what Christians and Catholics did or did not do to save Jews in WWII. It is also legitimate to ask what the Russian/Soviet Jews did to save Christian from the mass slaughter.

While people complain that there were anti-semitic people among Christians, it is still true that millions of Christians, to include millions of Catholics worked to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews.

Under the same token, there was anti-Christianity among the jews of Europe. Is there any evidence of the Jews bothering themselves to save the Christians who were exterminated by communism? Can anyone here produce that evidence? Or did the jews just turn their backs and ignore the slaughters?

A couple of people here have asked this question. Some of attacked them as asking the forbidden. Its a legitimate question… If the Christians of Europe are expected to have risked their lives to save Jews from the holocaust… aren’t Jews equally expected to have saved Christians from the hollacuasts that they suffered?

All of this killing was wrong… whether the victims were Jews, Christians, Gypsies or whatever. And every good person, regardless of their faith, should have been helping the victims.

.

 

[Kaninchen]

No, you’ll need another Stormfront link for The Protocols.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Goodness, it’ll be The Protocols next!

No that document has been proven to be forged trash.

On the other hand some did believe it to be true. We know for a fact that many people believed it and it lead to a lot of increased anti-Semitism at the time. People still use it today to try to prove some huge Jewish world domination plot.

Many times perception becomes more important then reality.
If we look through history, wrong perception has led to war and mistreatment of people probably as much as real events have.

 

[BelFarfalla]

No, you’ll need another Stormfront link for The Protocols.

Not familar with Stormfront.

I made two posts on the topic… the first is just stating things that people racted to. The second are some comments on it.

I personally do not believe that even though many of the founders of Russian/Soviet communism were Jews, that it was a Jewish movement.

I also do not believe that Hitler and the Nazis were Catholics.

In all cases these were people who had abandoned the religions of their ancestors.

 

[Kaninchen]

Hey, you’ve been busily promoting the the existence of the Jewish-Communist World Conspiracy part of the equation, what have you got against The Protocols?

It’s much better for you to get it all out of your system, you know.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hey, you’ve been busily promoting the the existence of the Jewish-Communist World Conspiracy part of the equation, what have you got against The Protocols?
It’s much better for you to get it all out of your system, you know.

No I have not been promoting “the existence of the Jewish-Communist World Conspiracy part of the equation”. I have simple shown that this conspiracy theory existed and some of the things that people use as proof of it.
And I’ve stated that this conspiracy was widely believed at the time. I posted two posts and made my comments on it in the second post… probably not wise on my part. I should have given my thoughts first.

 

[Kaninchen]

Knee-jerk google-search history only impresses the easily impressed.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Knee-jerk Google-search history only impresses the easily impressed.

The **** on here about Pope Pius XII being Hitler’s pope is indeed Knee-jerk Google-search history only impresses the easily impressed.
You miss the point… many people believed and still believe it. It led, and still leads to a lot of anti-Semitism. What I’m not supposed talk about it? I’m not supposed to bring it up even when I criticize it?
As for my question about why no one helped the Christians who were exterminated by the Soviets? It’s a legitimate question. And entire branch of my family was exterminated by the Soviets purges of Orthodox. Why didn’t the world rush in to help? Why does not world seem to have forgotten these slaughters?

 

[Kaninchen]

Are you telling me that my family and the families of all those people are supposed to shut up because apparently they had no right to live?

Hey, there’s never been any lack of opportunities for people to blame their misfortunes on ‘the Jews’ - they can even, like you, draw their evidence from sources easily linked from such sources of enlightenment as Stormfront!

 

[Kaninchen]

The **** on here about Pope Pius XII being Hitler’s pope is indeed Knee-jerk Google-search history only impresses the easily impressed.

I’m not interested in Pius XII, to me it’s a complete side issue.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hey, there’s never been any lack of opportunities for people to blame their misfortunes on ‘the Jews’ - they can even, like you, draw their evidence from sources easily linked from such sources of enlightenment as Stormfront!

You have not read what I’ve said at all. I do not blame the jews for anything.
Individual Jews such as the ones I listed above can be blamed for their actions as individuals. But their individual actions have no reflection on the Jewish community as a whole. I have stated this many times but you ignore it.

 

[Kaninchen]

Perhaps your enthusiasms belie your explanations.