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BelFarfalla
Guest
So you don’t think its important the Pope Pius XII directed the Catholic church, and participated himself, in the saving of the lives of almost a million Jews? You think that is of no signicance?
Interesting.
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Interesting.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
If you are speaking of my ‘enthusiasms’ you are assuming that you know my intent. It is wrong to assume that you know a persons’ intent when they clearly state otherwise.
So do you deny that people’s misperceptions of the Jewish sponsorship of Russian/Soviet communism let to a lot of misplaced anti-Semitism? Do you deny that this misperception hurt a lot of jews during that time and continues to cause problems today?
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Kaninchen
Guest
I don’t see the Pius XII issue as resolvable, not at this time that’s for sure and I certainly think a general message board more likely to generate heat than light on the subject.
I’m a (Western) European Jew, I don’t want to live anywhere else, so I’m interested in the currents of thought that generated what happened, the power structures that enabled it and, of course, ensuring that it doesn’t happen again.
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Kaninchen
Guest
On the contrary, I can only deduce your intent from what I see happening.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I’m a Catholic from all over the place… my family is from Italy, Spain, the Ukraine, Ethiopia, Lebanon… and other places in Europe. Many of us moved here to the USA.
We are predominately Orthodox/Catholic but have some Jews and Muslims in our family too.
It too am interested in what occurred back then to ensure that it is not repeated. I’m not only interested in this in relationship to the Jews Holocaust but the also in the many holocausts that took the lives of millions of others… mostly Christians but … but others suffered terribly too… like the gypsies.
One of my interests in the Pope Pius XII issue is that it is apart of a larger attack on the Catholic Church that has gone on for centuries. Such lies and tripe have lead to the death of millions of Catholics.
So while it seems your interest are only in myths that hurt the Jewish community like the myth of communism being a Jewish plot to take over the world… I’m interested in dispelling that myth and the myths spun by anti-Catholics. These anti-Catholic myths and propaganda are still a huge and scary threat to Catholics today.
My family has suffered through several exterminations of Christians… by the soviets and by the Muslims in Lebanon. As a child I witnessed some of the extermination. This is a topic that is very real to me. The question of where was the world, why didn’t anyone stop is real.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
Then your imagination is working over time.
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Kaninchen
Guest
A look through my posting history (particularly on the subject of attitudes to Muslims) would show that you’re completely in error there.
Indeed Catholics are the most persecuted people in human history and every day, in every street, one hears calls for a final solution to the Catholic problem.
No doubt it’s all the fault of us Jews.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
Ah so you are interested in fighting the myths that harm Jews and Muslims but not those that hurt Christians. Is this what you are saying your stance is?
While people may not be standing on every street corner calling for the final solution against Catholic/Orthodox… there has been a consistent, continual persecution going on for a very long time.
We just don’t open museums about it. As I told you in my earlier post, as a child I watch as Muslims killed Catholics & Coptic just because of their religion. They killed members of my family and my friends. They tried to kill my immediate family too. Luckily my father was able to get us out of there before we too were exterminated.
In the Ukraine the soviets exterminated all but one member of my family… a young man who managed to escape to the US.
How thoughtful and humane of you to respond to the death of my family with only sarcasm. Like I said… Apparently some think they had no right to live and we now, the living survivors have no right to ask why.
Your words not mine. It’s is not something I believe at all.
You are just angered that anyone dare look deeply into what went on.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Well, I freely acknowledge that I’ve been turning a blind eye to the massacres of Christians in the streets of Berlin, London, Paris, and Rome.
Never overestimate my ability to get angry. Nobody on a message board has managed to make me angry in ten years, you’re not going to succeed either.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I haven’t seen any massacres of Jews since WWII in the streets of Berlin, London, Paris or Rome either. Since you don’t think that massacres of Catholics that occurred prior to the end of WWII are significant, then perhaps we should not be bothered by the massacres of Jews before that time either. So does repression and genocide only count if it happened in Europe?
There have been massacres of Catholics since WWII (and many before that as well). I’ve mentioned some that I saw first hand … In Lebanon and a very little known one in Ethiopia. Believe me these were very real. But apparently you don’t think that these deaths are important enough … again you make fun of them. Massacres like this continue to this day as does the discrimination.
Below are just a very few of the thousands of attacks on Catholics in the last few years… but apparently if they do not happen in Europe, right under your nose, they don’t matter … This is what you are saying right?
Oct 26, Packistan, Catholic Church attacked, 142 bullets fired, 15 Catholics killed. The slayers had shouted Islamic slogans while mowing down their victims, declaring their attack was “just the beginning” of making Afghanistan and Pakistan the “graveyard of Christians”. 2
*Benjamin Bashir, 25, a member of St. Dominic´s Catholic Church, was riddled with 19 bullets as he guarded the strategic installations at the Quetta airport on Nov. 7. [Bashir] had been the sole provider for his mother and family since his father went blind, said Catholic Bishop Andrew Francis of Multan.*4
Indonesia, Over the past two years, Muslim extremists have been waging a Jihad against Christians in the Moluccas region of Indonesia, bombing churches, burning homes and killing over 9,000 people.
*Refugees are being housed in churches and government buildings, said Father Langgino Sangkide, who is based in the town of Tentena. … Fighting between Muslim and Christian villagers in Sulawesi, about 1,000 miles northeast of Jakarta, has claimed at least 1,000 lives in the last two years. Dozens have been killed in recent weeks. … The Jakarta Post quoted Bishop Joseph Suwatan of Sulawesi as saying armed militiamen had used bulldozers to destroy homes, churches and schools. The United Nations has warned that increasing tension in the region could trigger a flood of refugees. At least 50,000 people have already been displaced.*9
****Given the past track record of the Indonesian government and army with regards to Christians, the efforts to stop the violence have been understandably slow. In December of 1975, the Indonesian army invaded the small Catholic country of East Timor beginning a bloody twenty-five year occupation that ended in a post-election slaughter of thousands. At the time of their withdrawal in 1999, the Indonesian army had killed an estimated 200,000 Timorese (one-third of the original population) and still detains an estimated 100,000 as political prisoners.12
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maria_rose
Guest
The OP’s question if one could ever apologize for the Holocaust is a very interesting one. I have read this thread with great interest. I am A German native immigrated into the US in 1987. For me the subject of apology is a sore one. My country has paid restitution to Holocaust survivors, has apologized publically and has build museums showing the history of the atrocities and has made every effort to bring about friendship with Israel.
Still wherever we go Most people think of us Germans as Nazis, murderers of ethnic groups etc. On TV the history channel is a dedicated world war II and holocaust reporter. in bookstores the shelves are stocked with books on Nazi Germany and World War II. I never see any other books on Germany and its culture and people.
I’ve been asked if we’re still Nazis and yes in the heat of discussions I’ve been verbally abused by being called a Nazi.Why is it that people can’t see more in Germans than the holocaust and Nazism?
Germany has given the world so much in terms of Medicine, Science,Philosophy ,The Arts etc.
There is so much more to us than the terror of long ago.
On the subject of apology. I believe apologies in the cases of atrocities can’t fix anything. The ones needing to hear the apologies are long since dead and in God’s arms.
Most of us are generations removed from genocides such as the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust. It’s time to move on and deal with the present.
Think of Darfur, Afganistan, places all over the world where war is happening now and horrors of ethnic cleansing are happening everyday. The past is the past. Let’s learn from it not repeat terrible things. Let us relate as people of today and not be burdened by hates and horrors of the past.
For the record the holocaust was horrible, so were and are all the others.
Right now one of the worst is happening in this country: the murder of our unborn children. we need to stop that now.
But I am ranting now so I better hush up.
May God have mercy on all of us.
Still wherever we go Most people think of us Germans as Nazis, murderers of ethnic groups etc. On TV the history channel is a dedicated world war II and holocaust reporter. in bookstores the shelves are stocked with books on Nazi Germany and World War II. I never see any other books on Germany and its culture and people.
I’ve been asked if we’re still Nazis and yes in the heat of discussions I’ve been verbally abused by being called a Nazi.Why is it that people can’t see more in Germans than the holocaust and Nazism?
Germany has given the world so much in terms of Medicine, Science,Philosophy ,The Arts etc.There is so much more to us than the terror of long ago.
On the subject of apology. I believe apologies in the cases of atrocities can’t fix anything. The ones needing to hear the apologies are long since dead and in God’s arms.
Most of us are generations removed from genocides such as the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust. It’s time to move on and deal with the present.
Think of Darfur, Afganistan, places all over the world where war is happening now and horrors of ethnic cleansing are happening everyday. The past is the past. Let’s learn from it not repeat terrible things. Let us relate as people of today and not be burdened by hates and horrors of the past.
For the record the holocaust was horrible, so were and are all the others.
Right now one of the worst is happening in this country: the murder of our unborn children. we need to stop that now.
But I am ranting now so I better hush up.
May God have mercy on all of us.
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anthony022071
Guest
One of the things about the Holocaust is that there have been no prophets like Isaiah or Jeremiah to make sense of it. In the Old Testament there were usually prophets that told the Jews why they were losing battles,why they were being besieged,why they
were being exiled,why they were starving,why they were dying of pestilence,etc. It always had to do with the Jews’ turning away from God and the covenent,faithlessness and pride,their lack of mercy,their desire to conform with and be like the great civilizations that surrounded them. The Jews were to be a people apart,and to be dependent on their God,and to be satisfied with what God allowed them.
But the Holocaust produced no real prophets. Instead,there are writers and speakers who morbidly,obsessively dwell on it,receiving awards and applause,without being able to make any sense of it.
They must always ask themselves, “Where was God?” “Does God not see and hear?” “Was God asleep?” “How could God allow this to happen to his people?” But they never come to an answer. They are left with their bottomless sorrow,anger,unforgiveness,accusations,demands for retribution,touchiness.Though they continue to practice their religion and take pride in their culture,they may be tempted to doubt that they are really God’s chosen people,that God or that God even exists. So the Holocaust remains a particularly disturbing and meaningless example of hatred and inhumanity.
All that we can do is draw humanistic lessons from it and be wary and vigilant. Jews cannot be bring themselves to the conclusion,as their ancient ancestors did repeatedly,that they
must have offended God and that he left them exposed. No prophet has arisen to reveal divine truth in this. But if God exists,and if the Jews are his people,and if the prophets and scripture-writers are true,then how can there not be divine punishment involved? Jews are not inclined to believe,any more than Christians,in a God who punishes us for our sins.
were being exiled,why they were starving,why they were dying of pestilence,etc. It always had to do with the Jews’ turning away from God and the covenent,faithlessness and pride,their lack of mercy,their desire to conform with and be like the great civilizations that surrounded them. The Jews were to be a people apart,and to be dependent on their God,and to be satisfied with what God allowed them.
But the Holocaust produced no real prophets. Instead,there are writers and speakers who morbidly,obsessively dwell on it,receiving awards and applause,without being able to make any sense of it.
They must always ask themselves, “Where was God?” “Does God not see and hear?” “Was God asleep?” “How could God allow this to happen to his people?” But they never come to an answer. They are left with their bottomless sorrow,anger,unforgiveness,accusations,demands for retribution,touchiness.Though they continue to practice their religion and take pride in their culture,they may be tempted to doubt that they are really God’s chosen people,that God or that God even exists. So the Holocaust remains a particularly disturbing and meaningless example of hatred and inhumanity.
All that we can do is draw humanistic lessons from it and be wary and vigilant. Jews cannot be bring themselves to the conclusion,as their ancient ancestors did repeatedly,that they
must have offended God and that he left them exposed. No prophet has arisen to reveal divine truth in this. But if God exists,and if the Jews are his people,and if the prophets and scripture-writers are true,then how can there not be divine punishment involved? Jews are not inclined to believe,any more than Christians,in a God who punishes us for our sins.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I think you might, perhaps, notice that this thread is about the Holocaust and whether apologies are due. If you want to explain your thesis that Catholics are the most persecuted group in the history of the world, then you need to start a thread on that subject. If you want to describe the experiences of your family during “The liquidation of the Kulaks as a class”, ‘the nation-killing’ transportations to places like Kazakhstan, or whatever Stalinist atrocity featured most in their lives, then start a thread on that.
Meanwhile, the only thing I’ve said about my family (from Germany itself) is that their experience of a couple of thousand years living in Catholic Europe wasn’t exactly positive. Oh, and I’ve made the observation that I considered that the Catholic Church had paid a price (loss of political clout) for any involvement Catholics had had in Nazism and Fascism. I’ve asked for no apology, I’ve not denounced Catholics in general for any crime, I’ve said I’m not interested in the Pius XII question because I’ve said I don’t think it can be resolved. Neither have I scurried around trying to find scurrilous nonsense about Catholics from rabid anti-Catholic sources and said words to the effect of "Well, I’m not saying it’s true but I’m going to paste it all anyway . . . "
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Kaninchen
Guest
Speaking as a Jew of German-Jewish descent, I really do think that modern-day Germans are the Europeans who really have learned the lessons of what happened - that totalitarianism is poisonous to anybody/anything and everybody/everything that is good in a society, that aggressive war is a seriously bad thing and that massacres are very, very, very bad things and there’s a lot more to life than ‘power’.
On the other hand, the stigma of being the great example of the fact that even the most civilized society around can go stark, staring mad is not going to clear up too soon.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
No I don’t want to start any other thread… however when people decided to bring Pope Pius XII and accusations of the Catholic Church’s supposed involvement in the Jewish Holocaust Catholics will bring out evidence to show that there are some serious distortions.
As for apologies about the Jewish holocaust. The people responsible for it are those who participated in it. No one else needs apologize for the actions of those who were so inhumane to others.
I was making another point here… that we need to learn from the holocaust… that is the burden of the people who are alive today… to study it and to learn so that we do not repeat it. If people believe that the only hate that is wrong is anti-Semitism and that the only mass murder that has ever occurred is the Jewish holocaust in Germany, then mankind gets the wrong message.
We owe no apologies, but as humans we need to stop the hate and the killing… the killing is not something of the past… genocide is going on right now under our very noses but no one cares…. Hate is being spread against all kinds of people and no one really cares.
The truth is that until the lesson is learned it will continue. The lesson is that it is wrong no matter who is doing it and who the victim is. Apathy toward others being exterminated only serves to ensure that such atrocities will remain with mankind for a long time to come.
The fact is that it is rare for anyone to help in these situations. When someone does it’s truly a miracle.
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Sixtus
Guest
I started this thread to engage discussion. I was going to sum up the other half of what I had planned at the beginning. But Belfarfalla has done an excellent job for me. I shall therefore quote Barfalla:
This is the REAL war on terror. We too are exterminators, and partakers in the violence through our apathy. I too am guilty after the facts.
When are we going to stand up in one voice and say ‘enough!’
Genocide is going on at this very moment as you are reading this, women and children are being raped. Men are being imprisoned, tortured and killed. Where are we in all that?
This is the REAL war on terror. We too are exterminators, and partakers in the violence through our apathy. I too am guilty after the facts.
When are we going to stand up in one voice and say ‘enough!’
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a_priori
Guest
The Holocaust was obviously one of the most despicable events in recorded history. Slavery was an abominable practice.
I had absolutely nothing to do with either one.
How would a Jewish person or a black person derive any satisfaction from me if I were to personally apologize for things that happened before I was born and whose practices came to an end with the blood of my relatives in both cases?
There’s something here I’m just not getting.
I had absolutely nothing to do with either one.
How would a Jewish person or a black person derive any satisfaction from me if I were to personally apologize for things that happened before I was born and whose practices came to an end with the blood of my relatives in both cases?
There’s something here I’m just not getting.
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chosen_people
Guest
Evil wicked sinful gentiles filled with two thousand years of Christian antisemitic hate massacre six million innocent people and this you explain not as an act of pure evil but as deserved punishment for Jewish sins. Nazi Germany as the hand of God?!
How very very very sick.
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a_priori
Guest
Let’s not jump the tracks here.
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anthony022071
Guest
In the scriptures,whenever Isreal was experiencing something horrible,like the Babylonian Exile,the prophets made it clear that it was because they had fallen away from God and the covenant. They were forewarned in advance that they would be abandoned by God,temporarily,if they proved unfaithful. God allowed the Egyptians,Babylonians,Assyrians,Greeks,Romans to inflict evil upon the Jews,and then ultimately restored them to his favor. After the Holocaust , the Jews gained their homeland back after many centuries,something which was not possible before the Holocaust. If these things were true in the ancient times,how could they not be true in modern times? What is the alternative ?, that there is no God ?,that the Jews are no longer his people ?, that God has changed since ancient times ? That the lessons of the scriptures are not applicable to modern times ?
Personally, I know that the Jews are God’s chosen people.
It is not enough to say that which is obvious,that the Holocaust was an act inflicted by hateful,sinful gentiles. It is not enough to say it was an act of pure evil and hate. The Egyptians,Babylonians,Assyrians,Greeks,and Romans were also hateful,sinful gentiles in regard to the Jews,but the prophets repeatedly made it understood that God was allowing the gentiles
to inflict evil upon his people for abandoning him. I think the Holocaust can only be understood with reference to the truth of the scriptures. Otherwise,are we are to be satisfied with merely humanistic,societal,or behavioristic interpretations which exclude God? or do we disallow for God in modern times what we hold to have been true for him in ancient times?
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