How Can We Know We Experience God?

[ANV]

At one time or another, I tried every version of atheism there is to try. Futile.

If atheism did not bring a sense of worth to my living, God did.

I expect that might well be why suicide is more common among atheists than believers.

Camus and Sartre confronted that reality. Camus wrote a whole book on atheism and suicide. Sartre finally gave in and converted before he died. Maybe Pascal got to him, as he gets to a lot of atheists who cannot rid themselves of the haunting presence of God.

In his book *Modern Man in Search of a Soul * the psychoanalyst Jung writes: "During the past thirty years, people from all the civilized countries of the earth have consulted me. I have treated many hundreds of patients, the larger number being Protestants, a small number of Jews, and not more than five or six believing Catholics. Among all my patients in the second half of life – there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life. It is safe to say that every one of them fell ill because he had lost that which the living religions of every age have given to their followers, and none of them has been really healed who did not regain his religious outlook.”

What I mentioned weren’t versions of atheism but misconceptions of it, as from what you said it appears, you weren’t an atheist.
Many believers commit suicide and have mental issues and problems and many atheists are happy; but I agree, it could be easier for an atheist because it’s not a sin, so they don’t have to live on suffering which is good, to me, there is nothing wrong in suicide, it’s the ultimate personal choice and most often a non violent one towards others. I am willing to do it when things get too much hard to handle, it would be an escape from suffering and there is nothing wrong with that. Not all atheists are existentialists and get to the core of life philosophies, there are also some religious groups who support suicide. People give different meanings to their lives, we are more attached to the original meanings that were given to us when we were born and programmed to believe, hard to dismiss and become unchained, that’s why some may get lost when they lose their programming, their country, culture, religions, it may be easier on others who seek other bigger meanings than these and/or create their own for happiness by finding or creating them and they could be often unrelated to religions.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

What I mentioned weren’t versions of atheism but misconceptions of it, as from what you said it appears, you weren’t an atheist.
Many believers commit suicide and have mental issues and problems and many atheists are happy; but I agree, it could be easier for an atheist because it’s not a sin, so they don’t have to live on suffering which is good, to me, there is nothing wrong in suicide, it’s the ultimate personal choice and most often a non violent one towards others. I am willing to do it when things get too much hard to handle, it would be an escape from suffering and there is nothing wrong with that. Not all atheists are existentialists and get to the core of life philosophies, there are also some religious groups who support suicide. People give different meanings to their lives, we are more attached to the original meanings that were given to us when we were born and programmed to believe, hard to dismiss and become unchained, that’s why some may get lost when they lose their programming, their country, culture, religions, it may be easier on others who seek other bigger meanings than these and/or create their own for happiness by finding or creating them and they could be often unrelated to religions.

Again, I prefer for this thread not to be a thread arguing the benefits of atheism as you see them, but rather about how we can know we experience God. It doesn’t seem that you have anything to offer on that subject since you are an atheist.

 

[Bradski]

At one time or another, I tried every version of atheism there is to try.

What the…?

 

[minkymurph]

I don’t have anything to add. I’m only posting because you said I couldn’t…

:tsktsk:

 

[minkymurph]

I have been having extensive spiritual experience which I believe they are not hallucination since they are consistent. I have experienced extensive type of beings non of them was Catholic God who knows everything including foreknowledge. You can simply ask such a God about what you are going to decide and do contrary therefore a God with foreknowledge does not exist. I had two glimpse of beatific vision where I decided to stop experience them further because I felt that I am going to die. Beings just could simply exist for a reason that we will never know!

I too have had spiritual experiences. I cannot say these experiences convinced me there was a God as I have a theory supernatural events are consistently accompanied by a rational explanation, and thus these experiences could be attributed to something other than God.

I believe I had a direct encounter with God. It was this encounter that convinced me there was God, and that Christ is God. There are times this encounter is the only thing that stands between me and atheism.

When one believes one had directly encountered God, it is undeniable. This claim can only be understood by those who have had similar encounters. You can’t explain it to anyone who has not had this experience.

In terms of being religious, sometimes I am sometimes I’m not - it depends what mood I’m in. Flaky but true.

The issue I have with my faith is it is all too fantastic to believe, but why are we here? What is the purpose of life? I cannot accept we are simply here to reproduce and ensure the survival of our respective species. If the human race dies off in 200 years time I don’t imagine I will be any worse off. If we are here to do more than reproduce and ensure the survival of our respective species - what? Have a good life? I could run with that but for many life is as Hobbs said, ‘nasty, brutish and short.’ If we evolved from simple pond life I reckon had the amoeba had the benefit of hindsight it may well have stayed in it’s pond feeding by osmosis and reproducing by splitting in two as opposed to having to go to work, pay bills, and be governed by inept politicians.

My last point is - I so want to be immortal, and there is something attractive in the belief people who are [fill in the blank for yourself] will be answerable to a higher power on their death.

How Can we Know We Experience God according to the philosophy of minkymurph

 

[minkymurph]

I’d like to share short exerts from an essay I wrote some years ago. I don’t have the essay now so I’m writing from memory.

The title of the essay was, ‘Describe your faith journey with the use of imagery.’

*‘When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.’ *

Our biological age is not always consistent with our spiritual age. Our mental age is not always consistent with our biological age, but that is for another essay. As a convert to Catholicism I spoke as a babe, babbling endlessly about my new found faith to all who would listen and my religious icons became my new toys - until my heathen husband good- naturedly put a stop to it on the ground my home was rapidly becoming a shrine. It has often been said when one converts to a new faith they should be locked up for six months.

Some enjoyed my babbling and found it refreshing. Others did not. …
I came to realize my new found faith was no different to any other - and it was supposed to be. It was not ‘better,’ the people were not ‘better’ and becoming rapidly disenchanted a bawlked at everything. Yes - I had become a teenager.

Having mellowed, I am now in my thirties. I also have responsibilities. I have choices to make for my children. I didn’t get to choose my faith. Was it right for me to choose the faith of my children? What if I make the wrong choice as my parents did? What if they come to hate it?

My young son now joins my canine companions and I on our daily walk through Strickland’s Glen. A stream runs through the glen and my young son asked me if I could jump it. There was a time I would have had no hesitation, and would have laughed at failure had it been the outcome. But I now have responsibilities. If I successfully cleared the stream my young son may follow my example and get hurt. In addition, I didn’t have the same confidence I could clear the stream as I would have in the past. I told my son I did not think I could clear the stream - it was too far to jump.

This time, I was alone in the glen but for my canine companions. I looked at the stream and thought, ‘I’ve jumped farther than that in the past.’ I lined myself up, ran,
and jumped …

 

[STT]

I too have had spiritual experiences. I cannot say these experiences convinced me there was a God as I have a theory supernatural events are consistently accompanied by a rational explanation, and thus these experiences could be attributed to something other than God.

I believe I had a direct encounter with God. It was this encounter that convinced me there was God, and that Christ is God. There are times this encounter is the only thing that stands between me and atheism.

When one believes one had directly encountered God, it is undeniable. This claim can only be understood by those who have had similar encounters. You can’t explain it to anyone who has not had this experience.

Spiritual realm is vast. We have to be cautious about interpreting our experiences. I have never met any being who claim that He is God. There are many gods however who are able to read and manipulate our minds.

In terms of being religious, sometimes I am sometimes I’m not - it depends what mood I’m in. Flaky but true.

I used to be religious but not anymore. I also used to switch between being religious and not religious but then I realize that it is more important to find and establish a framework I can depend on it.

The issue I have with my faith is it is all too fantastic to believe, but why are we here? What is the purpose of life? I cannot accept we are simply here to reproduce and ensure the survival of our respective species. If the human race dies off in 200 years time I don’t imagine I will be any worse off. If we are here to do more than reproduce and ensure the survival of our respective species - what? Have a good life? I could run with that but for many life is as Hobbs said, ‘nasty, brutish and short.’ If we evolved from simple pond life I reckon had the amoeba had the benefit of hindsight it may well have stayed in it’s pond feeding by osmosis and reproducing by splitting in two as opposed to having to go to work, pay bills, and be governed by inept politicians.

Yes, these questions are important.

My last point is - I so want to be immortal, and there is something attractive in the belief people who are [fill in the blank for yourself] will be answerable to a higher power on their death.

I am not sure about that. Since to me life without meaning is empty and it would be very difficult to live a life for eternity without any meaning.

How Can we Know We Experience God according to the philosophy of minkymurph

You can ask Him to predict your decision and do opposite. Catholic God give the definition that He has foreknowledge does not exist.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Spiritual realm is vast. We have to be cautious about interpreting our experiences. I have never met any being who claim that He is God. There are many gods however who are able to read and manipulate our minds.

I used to be religious but not anymore. I also used to switch between being religious and not religious but then I realize that it is more important to find and establish a framework I can depend on it.

Yes, these questions are important.

I am not sure about that. Since to me life without meaning is empty and it would be very difficult to live a life for eternity without any meaning.

You can ask Him to predict your decision and do opposite. Catholic God give the definition that He has foreknowledge does not exist.

This whole post tells me nothing about how we know we can experience God, so you seem to be defeating the point of this thread.

If you want to argue that we cannot know how we experience God because there is no God, why not go and start another thread?

Although I don’t know how you can know there is no God.

 

[minkymurph]

Spiritual realm is vast. We have to be cautious about interpreting our experiences. I have never met any being who claim that He is God. There are many gods however who are able to read and manipulate our minds.

I agree we should be cautious about interpreting our experiences.

What I believe was a direct encounter with God is not something I could describe as an experience.

I personally don’t believe gods can read and manipulate our minds.

I am not sure about that. Since to me life without meaning is empty and it would be very difficult to live a life for eternity without any meaning.

I agree - I wasn’t planning on living it without any meaning.

You can ask Him to predict your decision and do opposite. Catholic God give the definition that He has foreknowledge does not exist.

Don’t get how this relates to my joke.

 

[Vonsalza]

Since to me life without meaning is empty…

The greatest and best appeal-to-practicality against atheism, imo.

Unfettered, atheism is philosophically nihilistic and spiritually annihilationist. If that’s not a “gun-in-mouth” paradigm, I don’t know what is.

 

[STT]

This whole post tells me nothing about how we know we can experience God, so you seem to be defeating the point of this thread.

Well, I think what I said is related to this thread. The mere experience cannot tell us whether we met God since spiritual world to my experience is very vast and we could simply meet a malicious being who is superior to us and claims to be God. The only way that we can be sure about God is to witness creation.

If you want to argue that we cannot know how we experience God because there is no God, why not go and start another thread?

I didn’t say that there is no God. I only said that the definition of Catholic God is problematic since it assigns foreknowledge to God. This is something which we can always check when we meet Catholic God. We can ask what we are going to decide and do opposite of God’s foreknowledge!

Although I don’t know how you can know there is no God.

I have several arguments against God. This is however of topic so lets put is aside. I can give the links to my arguments if you wish.

 

[STT]

I personally don’t believe gods can read and manipulate our minds.

I do. I met many of them.

Don’t get how this relates to my joke.

That was a serious comment. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[STT]

The greatest and best appeal-to-practicality against atheism, imo.

Unfettered, atheism is philosophically nihilistic and spiritually annihilationist. If that’s not a “gun-in-mouth” paradigm, I don’t know what is.

Yes, that is true.

Jesus however didn’t promise the meaning but the truth. What you are going to do with that (living eternally without any meaning)?

 

[fhansen]

Well, I think what I said is related to this thread. The mere experience cannot tell us whether we met God since spiritual world to my experience is very vast and we could simply meet a malicious being who is superior to us and claims to be God. The only way that we can be sure about God is to witness creation.

But, then, how will we know that heaven is truly the abode of God? How will we know we’re *in *heaven? How will we know that we’re actually in the presence of the true God? By what particular avenue do you think that knowledge comes- unless it issues forth from God Himself, and our beings, which He created, respond in recognition of this Other Being whom they were made in the image of and whom they were made for, to have communion with?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Jesus however didn’t promise the meaning but the truth.

How do you get to the truth without the meaning?

The meaning Jesus offers is eternal blessedness in God’s friendship. That is the reason for Creation and our place in Creation. If that is not our meaning, you would have to find some other meaning, which seems doubtful indeed.

 

[STT]

But, then, how will we know that heaven is truly the abode of God?

God dwells nowhere.

How will we know we’re *in *heaven?

We will never know.

How will we know that we’re actually in the presence of the true God?

God is creator so He should show you and make you understand the act of creation. We have a big problem in our hand if that is not logically possible.

By what particular avenue do you think that knowledge comes- unless it issues forth from God Himself, and our beings, which He created, respond in recognition of this Other Being whom they were made in the image of and whom they were made for, to have communion with?

We can never be sure. Spiritual world is huge and I personally witness many beings who are superior to us and are able to read my mind (otherwise they couldn’t communicate with me), manipulate my mind (putting thoughts inside my mind and change my feeling and emotions), etc.

 

[STT]

How do you get to the truth without the meaning?

The meaning has nothing to with the truth. Knowing the truth doesn’t give your life a meaning. It is something which life without it is empty. It is not feeling though. Something different.

The meaning Jesus offers is eternal blessedness in God’s friendship. That is the reason for Creation and our place in Creation. If that is not our meaning, you would have to find some other meaning, which seems doubtful indeed.

What is the state of blessedness? An state that you have the meaning and know the truth?

 

[o_mlly]

In the same way we know we are in a state of grace – faith.
If I am not in the state of grace, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.
Joan of Arc

 

[fhansen]

God is creator so He should show you and make you understand the act of creation. We have a big problem in our hand if that is not logically possible.

Then it’s logically possible even in this life.

 

[STT]

Then it’s logically possible even in this life.

I don’t think so. We cannot be cognitively open (there is no theory which can explain free will) to how we function because of free will.