How can we prove that the Eucharist is, in fact, the actual Body and Blood of Christ?

[JDGaney]

I usually look to John 6, since it starts off around a passover (hinting that this is connected to the Paschal Mystery), and that Jesus says over and over that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, and that He didn’t correct His disciples (which He always did), and a majority of them walked away.

There’s also the passage in 1 Corinthians 10 when Saint Paul tells us that this is a communion in the Body and Blood, and in the next chapter warns us of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord and that we can eat and drink Judgement to ourselves if we consume unworthily, and that some have died as a result of this.

But one website I went to quoted Hebrews 6 on this matter, that when we sin we crucify Jesus anew and put Him to shame, so they said it could be a figurative speech?

But Saint Paul does compare the Eucharist to the sacrifices of the Jews and Pagans in 1 Corinthians 10, bringing back the theology that in order for the crucifixion to have been a sacrifice, the Sedar must have been a sacrifice, too, as Jesus interrupted it and said after drinking sour wine in John’s Gospel: It is finished (and a bunch of theologians believe that He was referring to the Paschal Sacrifice, not Redemption, since Saint Paul said that Jesus was raised for our Justification). Then we add in the prophesy of Malachi, who spoke of how there would be a pure sacrifice offered all the time all over the world.

But there’s another question: how do we know that the sacrifice predicted in Malachi is singular in the sense that it is Calvary re-presented, or sacrifices of personal contrite hearts?

 

[bmonk]

We cannot prove it is; we can only take it on faith.

As you say, there are Scripture texts that speak of the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, especially John 6 and 1 Cor 10-11. John 6 is especially telling in that, when the Jewish believers go away, Jesus does not call after them and say, “Just kidding! No need to actually eat my Body and drink my Blood–it’s only a symbolic presence after all.” No–we really need to eat his Flesh and drink his Blood. And the tradition of the Church gives us only one way to do that: the Eucharist.

 

[bogeydogg]

I usually look to John 6, since it starts off around a passover (hinting that this is connected to the Paschal Mystery), and that Jesus says over and over that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, and that He didn’t correct His disciples (which He always did), and a majority of them walked away.

There’s also the passage in 1 Corinthians 10 when Saint Paul tells us that this is a communion in the Body and Blood, and in the next chapter warns us of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord and that we can eat and drink Judgement to ourselves if we consume unworthily, and that some have died as a result of this.

But one website I went to quoted Hebrews 6 on this matter, that when we sin we crucify Jesus anew and put Him to shame, so they said it could be a figurative speech?

But Saint Paul does compare the Eucharist to the sacrifices of the Jews and Pagans in 1 Corinthians 10, bringing back the theology that in order for the crucifixion to have been a sacrifice, the Sedar must have been a sacrifice, too, as Jesus interrupted it and said after drinking sour wine in John’s Gospel: It is finished (and a bunch of theologians believe that He was referring to the Paschal Sacrifice, not Redemption, since Saint Paul said that Jesus was raised for our Justification). Then we add in the prophesy of Malachi, who spoke of how there would be a pure sacrifice offered all the time all over the world.

But there’s another question: how do we know that the sacrifice predicted in Malachi is singular in the sense that it is Calvary re-presented, or sacrifices of personal contrite hearts?

The context of Hebrews 6 is this… "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. "

What is being said here is those who have come into the faith and fallen fully and completely away and deny Christ (presumably) even unto death, no one in such a situation could ever possibly hoped to be saved. Likewise a person that commits mortal sin cannot hope to be saved apart from reconciliation (a sacrament) just like those outside of Christ cannot hope to be brought into Christ apart from Baptism, Penitence, Absolution, and the Eucharist (all received in Sacraments). In other words a person that denies Christ and his Church has no hope of salvation.

That has nothing to do with the re-presentation of the Body and Blood on the Altar, excepting of course that the Body and Blood make us whole and bind us into Christ and each other, which of course is the opposite condition of what Hebrews is talking about. But what the writer is saying is that a person that denies Christ’s work and the Church is not going to receive the benefit of a second crucifixion special just for him, which if you think about it is pretty much what a lot of folks seem to be expecting, and it also makes sense that this would be a foolish expectation.

Concerning how we know; three Gospel writers and Paul all very explicitly quoted Jesus saying “this is my body… blood” and John quoted Jesus as you have already pointed out. If you say you are a Christian but doubt the words of Christ, do you think will Christ will be crucified again for YOU so that you can believe it better?

I hope you get the point.

 

[Thorns]

We cannot prove it is; we can only take it on faith.

As you say, there are Scripture texts that speak of the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, especially John 6 and 1 Cor 10-11. John 6 is especially telling in that, when the Jewish believers go away, Jesus does not call after them and say, “Just kidding! No need to actually eat my Body and drink my Blood–it’s only a symbolic presence after all.” No–we really need to eat his Flesh and drink his Blood. And the tradition of the Church gives us only one way to do that: the Eucharist.

Could this just mean the Eucharist was only the Body and Blood and Soul and Divinity of Christ only at the Last Supper, but not when we recreate the memorial every mass? Why would this line of thinking be inaccurate?

There’s also the passage in 1 Corinthians 10 when Saint Paul tells us that this is a communion in the Body and Blood, and in the next chapter warns us of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord and that we can eat and drink Judgement to ourselves if we consume unworthily, and that some have died as a result of this.

Could this just mean that those who call themselves Catholic but do not serve as good examples or do not follow the teachings bring judgement upon themselves by doing so? Since the Catholic Church is seen as the Body of Christ, those who claim to be apart of the Body but do not represent it accordingly are therefore disgracing the Body? Body being used to describe the Church on earth, not the Flesh of Christ. Can someone explain why this interpretation is incorrect?

 

[bmonk]

Originally Posted by bmonk

As you say, there are Scripture texts that speak of the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, especially John 6 and 1 Cor 10-11. John 6 is especially telling in that, when the Jewish believers go away, Jesus does not call after them and say, “Just kidding! No need to actually eat my Body and drink my Blood–it’s only a symbolic presence after all.” No–we really need to eat his Flesh and drink his Blood. And the tradition of the Church gives us only one way to do that: the Eucharist.

It might be interpreted so–but it would be a false interpretation. After all, not only those at the Last Supper need to be saved. We all need access to the Body and Blood of Christ. The only way to make that possible is if Jesus really intends us to “Do this in memory of me” and intends that every time we do as he did, he makes what we offer his own Body and Blood.

What keeps us from having to worry about this interpretation is the constant understanding of the Church from the earliest days right through to the present. Even if the Scriptures are not clear, the Church teaching makes it clear.

Originally Posted by JDGaney

There’s also the passage in 1 Corinthians 10 when Saint Paul tells us that this is a communion in the Body and Blood, and in the next chapter warns us of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord and that we can eat and drink Judgement to ourselves if we consume unworthily, and that some have died as a result of this.

Context matters. Consider 1 Cor 11:27-29 (NAB Revised):

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. (emphasis added)

The words about discerning the body, especially in the context of eating and drinking, point to what is being eaten and drunk: the Body and Blood of the Real Presence. Yes, they may also refer to the Church as the (Mystical) Body of Christ present on earth, but this is in the context of the Eucharist, not of ministry. Note also 11:17: this is about their meetings, not their ministry to others or their life. Paul deals with these in other chapters of the letter. When you add the teaching of John 6 about needing to chew the Flesh and drink the Blood, it is more than just the Church here that St.Paul is speaking of. It is the Eucharistic liturgy.

 

[po18guy]

This is an article of faith. Could it be proven, it would be an article of science. As to belief in the Eucharist, it is the Holy Spirit rather than our inarticulate words, Who convicts hearts.

 

[John_Martin]

When people watched priests of Old Testament times performing the sacrifice of sheep and goats, they saw a live animal having its throat cut, then watched as the draining blood was collected into a container. The body of the animal drained of its blood was then placed on the altar, and the blood sprinkled on the altar and on the people. There were prayers or exhortations to God to accept the sacrifice. So there was a body on the altar and blood on the altar, not a lamb on the altar which was not slain, but a lamb on the altar slain, with its blood present outside or separate from its body.

When the Priest today confects the Eucharist, he holds up what he, in Jesus’ words, terms Christ’s Body. Then places this Body on the altar. Next he holds up a chalice of what is termed Christ’s Blood. This also is placed on the altar next to the Body. Jesus did the same in the upper room. On the altar you have a body in a separated location alongside blood. This is a sacrifice. Then, in the midst of prayers, both are reached up in the air toward heaven - in separate hands.

Since it is a covenant sacrifice, the body of the sacrifice and the blood of the sacrifice are required to be eaten - God received the sacrifice (Christ returned to him what Adam and we stole - we tried to have life by our own schemes, where Christ gave back to God his life that was not a stolen life by a life wholly given by God, so the sacrifice was acceptable), and in return he wants us to take this body and blood and eat it and drink it, the body from God, and the blood which is the life of the body, and thereby confirming our covenant.

Don’t try to discern the body or the blood while you are chewing or swallowing - you will never figure it out - discern the body and the blood at the consecration, when they are sitting next to each other on the altar - not blood in a body, but blood separated and located next to the body. Sacramentally, the body and blood of Christ are sitting next to each other to be offered up, then received back in a loud AMEN to the covenant. Concomitantly Christ is fully present in both, because he is alive, and where his body is, so there is his blood, his soul, his Godhead. And where his blood is, he is one with his body, soul, and divinity. Look at the altar, on the altar; Behold the Lamb of God, looking as though he were slain (Rev).

John Martin

 

[thistle]

I usually look to John 6, since it starts off around a passover (hinting that this is connected to the Paschal Mystery), and that Jesus says over and over that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, and that He didn’t correct His disciples (which He always did), and a majority of them walked away.

There’s also the passage in 1 Corinthians 10 when Saint Paul tells us that this is a communion in the Body and Blood, and in the next chapter warns us of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord and that we can eat and drink Judgement to ourselves if we consume unworthily, and that some have died as a result of this.

But one website I went to quoted Hebrews 6 on this matter, that when we sin we crucify Jesus anew and put Him to shame, so they said it could be a figurative speech?

But Saint Paul does compare the Eucharist to the sacrifices of the Jews and Pagans in 1 Corinthians 10, bringing back the theology that in order for the crucifixion to have been a sacrifice, the Sedar must have been a sacrifice, too, as Jesus interrupted it and said after drinking sour wine in John’s Gospel: It is finished (and a bunch of theologians believe that He was referring to the Paschal Sacrifice, not Redemption, since Saint Paul said that Jesus was raised for our Justification). Then we add in the prophesy of Malachi, who spoke of how there would be a pure sacrifice offered all the time all over the world.

But there’s another question: how do we know that the sacrifice predicted in Malachi is singular in the sense that it is Calvary re-presented, or sacrifices of personal contrite hearts?

Anyone who needs proof has a problem with their faith!!

 

[petra22]

When people watched priests of Old Testament times performing the sacrifice of sheep and goats, they saw a live animal having its throat cut, then watched as the draining blood was collected into a container. The body of the animal drained of its blood was then placed on the altar, and the blood sprinkled on the altar and on the people. There were prayers or exhortations to God to accept the sacrifice. So there was a body on the altar and blood on the altar, not a lamb on the altar which was not slain, but a lamb on the altar slain, with its blood present outside or separate from its body.

When the Priest today confects the Eucharist, he holds up what he, in Jesus’ words, terms Christ’s Body. Then places this Body on the altar. Next he holds up a chalice of what is termed Christ’s Blood. This also is placed on the altar next to the Body. Jesus did the same in the upper room. On the altar you have a body in a separated location alongside blood. This is a sacrifice. Then, in the midst of prayers, both are reached up in the air toward heaven - in separate hands.

Since it is a covenant sacrifice, the body of the sacrifice and the blood of the sacrifice are required to be eaten - God received the sacrifice (Christ returned to him what Adam and we stole - we tried to have life by our own schemes, where Christ gave back to God his life that was not a stolen life by a life wholly given by God, so the sacrifice was acceptable), and in return he wants us to take this body and blood and eat it and drink it, the body from God, and the blood which is the life of the body, and thereby confirming our covenant.

Don’t try to discern the body or the blood while you are chewing or swallowing - you will never figure it out - discern the body and the blood at the consecration, when they are sitting next to each other on the altar - not blood in a body, but blood separated and located next to the body. Sacramentally, the body and blood of Christ are sitting next to each other to be offered up, then received back in a loud AMEN to the covenant. Concomitantly Christ is fully present in both, because he is alive, and where his body is, so there is his blood, his soul, his Godhead. And where his blood is, he is one with his body, soul, and divinity. Look at the altar, on the altar; Behold the Lamb of God, looking as though he were slain (Rev).

John Martin

So profound, John Martin!

 

[cheezey]

Anyone who needs proof has a problem with their faith!!

:clapping:

 

[goredsox]

It is the blood and body of Christ. It is in the bible and if you are Catholic you believe it to be true. If you need proof look to the bible.

 

[po18guy]

It is the blood and body of Christ. It is in the bible and if you are Catholic you believe it to be true. If you need proof look to the bible.

Quite right. We believe that it is Christ’s Body and Blood because He said it is. Enough said.

 

[PNEUMA]

When people watched priests of Old Testament times performing the sacrifice of sheep and goats, they saw a live animal having its throat cut, then watched as the draining blood was collected into a container. The body of the animal drained of its blood was then placed on the altar, and the blood sprinkled on the altar and on the people. There were prayers or exhortations to God to accept the sacrifice. So there was a body on the altar and blood on the altar, not a lamb on the altar which was not slain, but a lamb on the altar slain, with its blood present outside or separate from its body.

When the Priest today confects the Eucharist, he holds up what he, in Jesus’ words, terms Christ’s Body. Then places this Body on the altar. Next he holds up a chalice of what is termed Christ’s Blood. This also is placed on the altar next to the Body. Jesus did the same in the upper room. On the altar you have a body in a separated location alongside blood. This is a sacrifice. Then, in the midst of prayers, both are reached up in the air toward heaven - in separate hands.

Since it is a covenant sacrifice, the body of the sacrifice and the blood of the sacrifice are required to be eaten - God received the sacrifice (Christ returned to him what Adam and we stole - we tried to have life by our own schemes, where Christ gave back to God his life that was not a stolen life by a life wholly given by God, so the sacrifice was acceptable), and in return he wants us to take this body and blood and eat it and drink it, the body from God, and the blood which is the life of the body, and thereby confirming our covenant.

Don’t try to discern the body or the blood while you are chewing or swallowing - you will never figure it out - discern the body and the blood at the consecration, when they are sitting next to each other on the altar - not blood in a body, but blood separated and located next to the body. Sacramentally, the body and blood of Christ are sitting next to each other to be offered up, then received back in a loud AMEN to the covenant. Concomitantly Christ is fully present in both, because he is alive, and where his body is, so there is his blood, his soul, his Godhead. And where his blood is, he is one with his body, soul, and divinity. Look at the altar, on the altar; Behold the Lamb of God, looking as though he were slain (Rev).

John Martin

True, but at the same time, I think the point is that we, together with or in Christ, give our lives to God. That we in the Eucharist become one body and one blood with Christ, given to God, or as St. Paul says are “crucified with Christ”, and so have carried the cross and died with him.

Matthew 16:24 “Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”

 

[John_Martin]

So profound, John Martin!

Thanks πέτρα22, but it is actually Thomas Aquinas put in plain speak.
John Martin

 

[anon98328916]

Jesus told us at the last supper “this is my body” and “this is the chalice of my blood…do this in memory of Me”, that is good enough for me. I’m sure plenty of Catholics have experienced certain feelings after receiving the Eucharist. I have had feelings I cannot explain properly, we’re I felt at peace and I wished I had felt like it forever and after Holy Communion this year on Divine Mercy Sunday when I got back to my seat I felt an overwhelming feeling come over me and I wanted to cry. When we receive the Eucharist Jesus wants to give us all kinds of graces, Jesus is before is Body, Blood,Soul and Divinity. If people doubt that Jesus is present in the Eucharist I would advise reading “diary of St. Faustina divine mercy in my soul”.

 

[glendab]

Buy them a copy of this book - Eucharistic Miracles And Eucharistic Phenomena in the Lives of the Saints by Joan Carroll Cruz and ask them to read it. It can be had at Amazon for cheaper than new.

Glenda

 

[po18guy]

No words we can ever say, no evidence we can show will ever convince a doubting heart of the truth which the faith professes.

However, time spent before the Blessed Sacrament expressing one’s doubts to Him will, with patience, lead to a powerful consolation by the Holy Spirit. Following this, nothing can ever convince that Christ is not present.

 

[bmonk]

No one’s been able to do it so far.
Sure would be helpful if someone could do so.
I can’t think of any way it could be done except…we put all the wafers/wine under a microscope one Sunday all over the world, and they all show the same DNA.
Or, for example, Jesus appears in the flesh at thousands of churches all at once, during the mass.
That would get us closer to “proof”…

Not so. All a microscope would show is the accidents–which remain as bread and wine. The DNA, if any, would be that of the wine grapes and yeast, or the wheat. To discern the Body and Blood requires faith.

 

[John_Martin]

No one’s been able to do it so far.
Sure would be helpful if someone could do so.
I can’t think of any way it could be done except…we put all the wafers/wine under a microscope one Sunday all over the world, and they all show the same DNA.
Or, for example, Jesus appears in the flesh at thousands of churches all at once, during the mass.
That would get us closer to “proof”…
.

If someone says to you, “You are under arrest”, are you under arrest?
If the person is your coworker, teasing you, no, you are not under arrest. If the person is a police detective, on duty, yes, you are under arrest, and he would prove it to you if you tried to walk away.

The proof is in the authority of the person speaking, not in the appearance of physical situation. So, who is Jesus, and who is this person at the altar on Sunday, and who is really speaking as the bread is picked up and as the chalice is picked up? And because of who is speaking, what then has to be on the altar after the speaking?
A body, the body, of Christ; a chalice of blood, of the blood, of Christ, next to the body, on an altar, on the altar, with disciples all around waiting for their part of the covenant - to eat the body and drink the blood of the sacrificial victim.
All because of the Person speaking - his authority, just as his Father with authority said, “Let there be light”, and there was light.

John Martin.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

When people watched priests of Old Testament times performing the sacrifice of sheep and goats, they saw a live animal having its throat cut, then watched as the draining blood was collected into a container. The body of the animal drained of its blood was then placed on the altar, and the blood sprinkled on the altar and on the people. There were prayers or exhortations to God to accept the sacrifice. So there was a body on the altar and blood on the altar, not a lamb on the altar which was not slain, but a lamb on the altar slain, with its blood present outside or separate from its body.

When the Priest today confects the Eucharist, he holds up what he, in Jesus’ words, terms Christ’s Body. Then places this Body on the altar. Next he holds up a chalice of what is termed Christ’s Blood. This also is placed on the altar next to the Body. Jesus did the same in the upper room. On the altar you have a body in a separated location alongside blood. This is a sacrifice. Then, in the midst of prayers, both are reached up in the air toward heaven - in separate hands.

Since it is a covenant sacrifice, the body of the sacrifice and the blood of the sacrifice are required to be eaten - God received the sacrifice (Christ returned to him what Adam and we stole - we tried to have life by our own schemes, where Christ gave back to God his life that was not a stolen life by a life wholly given by God, so the sacrifice was acceptable), and in return he wants us to take this body and blood and eat it and drink it, the body from God, and the blood which is the life of the body, and thereby confirming our covenant.

Don’t try to discern the body or the blood while you are chewing or swallowing - you will never figure it out - discern the body and the blood at the consecration, when they are sitting next to each other on the altar - not blood in a body, but blood separated and located next to the body. Sacramentally, the body and blood of Christ are sitting next to each other to be offered up, then received back in a loud AMEN to the covenant. Concomitantly Christ is fully present in both, because he is alive, and where his body is, so there is his blood, his soul, his Godhead. And where his blood is, he is one with his body, soul, and divinity. Look at the altar, on the altar; Behold the Lamb of God, looking as though he were slain (Rev).

John Martin

Good post!

This is also a good jumping off point for the other question in the OP about the sacrifice spoken of by Malachai the prophet.

You must see the above sacrifice in the context of Malachai’s time. A sacrifice was the bloody sacrifice described above. There was no “personal” sacrifice at that time. That is a Christian notion where we are NOW able to unite our personal sacrifices with The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Jesus sanctified OUR suffering and made OUR sacrifices worthy of merit by HIS sacrifice.

But getting back to Malachai, he is acknowledging the imperfectness of the Mosaic Temple Sacrifice in forgiving sins, as it was known that the Messiah would change all of that. So the Perfect and pleasing Sacrifice around the world from sunup to sundown, is unquestionably an allusion to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.